The Garden of Eden: a new perspective on its location

[kborissov]

I have published a paper on this subject, which you can download here:

https://www.scirp.org/journal/paperinformation?paperid=136407

In this paper, I argue that Eden is located in Egypt, attributing the origin of the four rivers of Eden to the Oceanus River, a concept initially introduced by the first-century Jewish historian Josephus. I contend that Josephus’ hypothesis may indeed hold merit. The everlasting spring in the Garden of Eden as alluded in the book of Genesis, impervious to the Earth’s climatic conditions is also examined in the paper.

Keywords:
Eden, Paradise, The Garden of Eden, Oceanus, Four Rivers of Eden, Egypt,
Tree of Life, Pentateuch, Adam and Eve, Climatic Zones, Ice Age, Perpetual
Spring, Sky Serpents, Aurora, Ancient Site Alignment, Flaming Sword,
Medieval Cartography, Mappa Mundi, Genesis, Bible, Creator

[Ell]

That is marvelous news.

From this we must conclude that the garden did not have just a snake in it, but hippopotamuses and crocodiles as well.

And maybe Egyptian mice? Does Egypt have mice?

Did the snake eat mice as well, or only apples? Was the snake omnivorous instead of fructivorous?

Edited September 29 by Ell

[Windowpane]

On 9/29/2024 at 2:25 PM, Ell said:

...

And maybe Egyptian mice? Does Egypt have mice?

 

Well, it certainly used to!  And see also Egyptian toys including senet board and wooden mouse, 100-400 AD. Fitzwilliam Museum, Cambridge.

Quote

Did the snake eat mice as well, or only apples? Was the snake omnivorous instead of fructivorous?

Snakes eat mice (which can't be much fun for the mouse ... )

But they would turn up their collective noses (if they had such a thing) at apples.

[Abramelin]

Here is Eden:

 

 

😎

[Thanos5150]

6 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Here is Eden:

 

 

😎

Can you link the source of the map please. 

[+joc]

Arabian Journal of Geosciences

[Abramelin]

9 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

Can you link the source of the map please. 

I googled "saudi arabia" plus "ancient rivers", and then clicked on 'images'.

I just picked one that was clear, and downloaded it.

Joc may be right, btw.

[Abramelin]

16 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Here is Eden:

 

 

😎

https://phys.org/news/2016-05-evidence-ice-age-refugium-arabia.html

[qxcontinuum]

Based on the Biblical narrative, the Garden of Eden's location is often associated with the region around the Tigris and Euphrates rivers, which are mentioned in Genesis 2:10-14. These rivers, still known today, flow through modern-day Iraq. Two other rivers are mentioned in the text—Pishon and Gihon—which are more difficult to identify.

Scholars often speculate that Eden might have been located somewhere in the ancient Near East, possibly in the Fertile Crescent region, which includes parts of modern Iraq, Kuwait, Turkey, and Iran. Some theories also suggest that Eden could have been near the Persian Gulf, where the rivers may have once converged before changes in the landscape.

[Windowpane]

28 minutes ago, qxcontinuum said:

... the Garden of Eden's location ...

What makes people think it was a real geographical location, rather than a metaphysical or mythical concept?

[Thanos5150]

4 hours ago, Abramelin said:

https://phys.org/news/2016-05-evidence-ice-age-refugium-arabia.html

Not seeing it in there but no worries. Thought you might have had it handy. 

[The Puzzler]

21 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Here is Eden:

 

 

😎

They said Egypt…this is off topic….

[Abramelin]

36 minutes ago, Thanos5150 said:

Not seeing it in there but no worries. Thought you might have had it handy. 

Sorry, no, that was not meant as a source of the map I posted.

But Arabia appears to have been a refugia I never knew of.

And I tried to retrace that picture I posted, but can't find it anymore myself.

 

To be honest.... I wasn't even serious with that map. It just popped up in my mind that Eden was located in Arabia, and so I tried to find a map that could somewhat support it.

 

[Abramelin]

2 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

They said Egypt…this is off topic….

Yeah, and the writer of that tome never showed up again.

Have you read it?

[The Puzzler]

, a concept initially introduced by the first-century Jewish historian Josephus. I assert that Josephus’ hypothesis may indeed be correct. The tree of life, a vital element of Eden, is suggested to be located in Giza, with the sacred mount identified as the Great Pyramid of Giza. Furthermore, the everlasting spring-like state in the Garden of Eden as alluded in the book of Genesis, impervious to the Earth’s climatic conditions, is also examined in the paper.
OP tome.

What does Josephus say?

 

Now the garden was watered by one river, which ran round about the whole earth, and was parted into four branches. (Antiquities 1:1:3)

The four branches mentioned here are then identified by Josephus as being the: Ganges, Euphrates, Tigris and the Nile. Now that is some garden! Clearly, by the time Josephus was writing his version of the Old Testament, the name and location of these rivers had been corrupted or lost.  And yet Josephus was copying from a much older version of the Torah/Tanakh than the classical Old Testament in use today. Josephus was using the Torah that had been taken from the Temple of Jerusalem in AD 70, which dated from the time of the Babylonian exile. And yet even this early version of the Torah appears to have been confused as to where the four branches of the Eden river lay.

But if the names of the branches had been garbled by the 6th century BC, perhaps the description of the layout of this river may be a little more reliable - in brief, it was a long river running through a garden that eventually parted into four branches. So let us run with that idea and see where it takes us to. The possibility exists, therefore, that the Book of Genesis was referring to Egypt and to the Nile, and not to Mesopotamia at all

https://www.ancient-origins.net/opinion-guest-authors/eden-egypt-part-1-001827

Edited Tuesday at 04:09 PM by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

2 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

Yeah, and the writer of that tome never showed up again.

Have you read it?

I’m reading up now…

[Abramelin]

1 minute ago, The Puzzler said:

I’m reading up now…

I only have this phone. If I want to read a book, I'm cross-eyed after a couple of hours.

Ok, keep us informed.

[The Puzzler]

7 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

I only have this phone. If I want to read a book, I'm cross-eyed after a couple of hours.

Ok, keep us informed.

lol maybe it’s more…psychological than geological…

Re-setting of the head…of the waters…the birthday of the Universe…the creation of it, itself, at the head of the rivers. The beginning of mankind…

Good night all.

 

[Thanos5150]

15 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

To be honest.... I wasn't even serious with that map. It just popped up in my mind that Eden was located in Arabia, and so I tried to find a map that could somewhat support it.

All good. What interested me were possible routes to the Red Sea other than Wadi al Batin. 

QMFE:

While it seems apparent to me the Naqada II phase c.3500BC in southern Egypt did come by way of the Red Sea one thing that has always been problematic for me is the length of the journey around the Arabian Peninsula. Not impossible, and required if no other candidates are found, but a bit of a stretch. For perspective refer to this MAP. On the Egypt side "Nekhen" is the Egyptian name for Hierakonpolis.

For further perspective the Wadi_Hammamat trail:

Which ended slightly to the north of Hierakonpolis at roughly Naqada.

So to bring this all together, space scientist and geologist Farouk El-Baz in 1993 using satellite imagery discovered a large ancient river (since then others have been found as well) running through what is now Saudi Arabia. Wadi Al-Batin (which he called the "Kuwait River"), stretched over 500 miles and at some point was perhaps as much as 3 miles wide in which water last flowed between c. 9,000-3,000BC.

The entrance to this river would have been very close to the ancient city of Uruk and would have taken them at least a length of 500 miles towards the Red Sea. From there they would have carried their boats to the Red Sea, just as depicted on the other side leading from the Red Sea to the Nile, with a potential exit point somewhere directly across the Wadi Hammamat exit point on the Red Sea. Obviously more research needs to be done, but hypothetically I suggest that the Naqada II phase Mesopotamians that came to Egypt c.3500BC did not come around the Arabian Peninsula, but rather by way of the Wadi Al-Batin River.

And though it is thought this river dried up some time around 3,000BC, it is possible this may well have been earlier around 3500BC, or perhaps at least was no longer navigable, explaining why not only was the Mesopotamian occupation of Egypt at this time short lived, but also why 300 some years later, among other reasons namely Egyptian interaction with the Levant, the 2nd wave of Mesopotamians came by way of Syria and the Mediterranean Sea. Also possible, which I believe may explain the difference in the style of Mesopotamian influence not just separated by time which the 1st wave leans more towards Elamite, is that the 1st wave was in fact from Elam and the 2nd from Sumer.

 

[Abramelin]

@Thanos5150

Though I liked your post, I think you are limiting yourself to a time thousands of years after Arabia was one of the refugia during the Last Ice Age.

If - big IF - there is any truth in the myth of somekind of 'paradise' or Eden, then we must look for locations that were favorable to humans, animals, plants and so on.

Arabia is now mostly desert without rivers, but it must have looked very differently during and right after the last ice age.

 

And then we have the 'Land of Nod', east of Eden.

That would probably be what we now call Mesopotamia.

And there's where Nimrod built his temples.

[qxcontinuum]

4 hours ago, Windowpane said:

What makes people think it was a real geographical location, rather than a metaphysical or mythical concept?

Because that's what this thread is about. Besides it does have indeed some strong geo specifics such as the rivers crossing two of which still exist today,  therefore it cannot be just a concept.

Edited Tuesday at 04:56 PM by qxcontinuum

[Piney]

4 hours ago, Windowpane said:

What makes people think it was a real geographical location, rather than a metaphysical or mythical concept?

I always considered it a parable about farming. Once we wiped out the forests. We lost the garden.

[jethrofloyd]

It's just a nice myt. Same category as Atlantis. No physical evidence.

[Abramelin]

5 minutes ago, jethrofloyd said:

It's just a nice myt. Same category as Atlantis. No physical evidence.

Maybe it's nothing but a myth.

But I think it' could be a memory of an area where people were able to survive the last ice age.

People imagined reasons why they had to leave that area. You know, some angry god, people not obeying that god's rules, and all that crap.

 

[Thanos5150]

38 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

@Thanos5150

Though I liked your post, I think you are limiting yourself to a time thousands of years after Arabia was one of the refugia during the Last Ice Age.

If - big IF - there is any truth in the myth of somekind of 'paradise' or Eden, then we must look for locations that were favorable to humans, animals, plants and so on.

Arabia is now mostly desert without rivers, but it must have looked very differently during and right after the last ice age.

 

And then we have the 'Land of Nod', east of Eden.

That would probably be what we now call Mesopotamia.

And there's where Nimrod built his temples.

Sorry, I wasn't even thinking about Eden. Just interested in the rivers. 

But if I were, among a host of other issues there is no reason to believe writers in the 6th century BC would have any clue where this place was not to mention once again this concept of a "garden paradise" was inspired by earlier Mesopotamian stories. 

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