There is a 'third state' beyond life and death - neuroscientist reveals his experience

[pellinore]

Scientists are close to proving that far from death being the end of life, we may live on as microscopic beings. It is incredible that science has taken so long to catch up with religion with regard to life after death!

Having experienced death himself, Dr Koch, 67, says this experience has marked him for life – not least because he says he no longer has any fear of death (which is 'not uncommon in people who have undergone an NDE'). It has also made him a unique figure in an emerging new era of research into dying and death.

Death remains one of life's greatest mysteries. But new scientific investigations into the bizarre medical phenomena that can arise when we approach death, and even afterwards, may start to unravel it (or make it even more mysterious, as we shall see).

This could help researchers develop new ways to cure debilitating illnesses such as cardiovascular disease and cystic fibrosis – and improve vastly resuscitation techniques and the care of the dying – within just five to ten years, according to some experts.

The latest discovery in this field of death-science reveals something that sounds quite spooky, but which may soon offer revolutionary lifesaving cures: our own human cells can grow into microscopic new creatures after we die.

Why scientists think there's a 'third state' beyond life and death that could explain so much. One neuroscientist reveals incredible experience that ended his scepticism | Daily Mail Online (archive.ph)

Edited Tuesday at 09:17 PM by pellinore

[XenoFish]

Rinse and repeat thread.

[pellinore]

8 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Rinse and repeat thread.

But did the last one reveal the microscopic beings aspect? 

Edited Tuesday at 09:22 PM by pellinore

[Waspie_Dwarf]

14 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Rinse and repeat thread.

If you are referring to this:

then actually they are quite different. If you do believe that a topic has been duplicated then commenting in the topic is probably not the best way to approach the issue, reporting it and allowing the moderating team to deal with it is far more effective.

[XenoFish]

8 minutes ago, Waspie_Dwarf said:

allowing the moderating team to deal with it is far more effective.

Whatever. I've caught more dupe threads than I can count. 

[Black Red Devil]

I dunno.  Just a thought without having professional knowledge into the matter but I think NDE is a residue brain symptom that gets triggered by the trauma of death to ease the shock.  If death was sudden the brain triggers the symptom because it knows it's not in control of the body's functions anymore.  I know this goes against the theory suggesting if the EEG is flat there is no brain activity but maybe there there is still be some residual activity going up that doesn't occur through electrical impulses.

[papageorge1]

This article jumps around and doesn't make much sense. The third state is about microscopic cellular processes where after death of the person/animal certain cells given the right conditions can morph and continue living in a new way.

That's all very interesting but has nothing to do with Near Death Experiences and such to which the author of the article also gets into. I question the Daily Mail's author's grasp of the subject he is talking about. 

 

[+Hammerclaw]

19 hours ago, pellinore said:

Scientists are close to proving that far from death being the end of life, we may live on as microscopic beings. It is incredible that science has taken so long to catch up with religion with regard to life after death!

Having experienced death himself, Dr Koch, 67, says this experience has marked him for life – not least because he says he no longer has any fear of death (which is 'not uncommon in people who have undergone an NDE'). It has also made him a unique figure in an emerging new era of research into dying and death.

Death remains one of life's greatest mysteries. But new scientific investigations into the bizarre medical phenomena that can arise when we approach death, and even afterwards, may start to unravel it (or make it even more mysterious, as we shall see).

This could help researchers develop new ways to cure debilitating illnesses such as cardiovascular disease and cystic fibrosis – and improve vastly resuscitation techniques and the care of the dying – within just five to ten years, according to some experts.

The latest discovery in this field of death-science reveals something that sounds quite spooky, but which may soon offer revolutionary lifesaving cures: our own human cells can grow into microscopic new creatures after we die.

Why scientists think there's a 'third state' beyond life and death that could explain so much. One neuroscientist reveals incredible experience that ended his scepticism | Daily Mail Online (archive.ph)

[papageorge1]

18 hours ago, pellinore said:

Having experienced death himself, Dr Koch, 67, says this experience has marked him for life – not least because he says he no longer has any fear of death (which is 'not uncommon in people who have undergone an NDE'). It has also made him a unique figure in an emerging new era of research into dying and death.

I looked into Dr. Koch further through the internet and he was a champion of a materialistic understanding of consciousness. He recently lost a 25 year bet with David Chalmers as to if science would make major progress in understanding consciousness in 25 years. I think it was good natured and he bought Chalmers a very expensive bottle of wine.

Now being a materialist he had an NDE around three years ago and started saying some things materialists would label woo-woo like from the article

Quote

In this way people undergoing an NDE experience what he calls 'mind at large', a form of consciousness that may pervade the entire universe.

 

In my analysis, I think he misses the bridge between science and spirituality/religion in that he only considers the physical plane and consciousness is like some fundamental force like gravity and magnetism.

The bridge between science and religion I see to be additional Planes of Nature 

Excerpt:

According to the teachings of Theosophy, deriving in part from esoteric Hinduism, the universe is divided into seven planes. Beginning with the one closest to God, they are referred to as the divine, adi; monadic, anutadaka; spiritual, nirvana; intuitional, buddhi; mental, manas; astral, kama; and physical, sthula. These worlds are not physically separate in the manner that planets appear to be, but interpenetrate, and their differences depend on the relative density of the matter that composes them and the consequent difference in the rates at which the matter of each world vibrates.

Except for the physical world (the densest), our knowledge of them, so far as it extends, is dependent on clairvoyance. The more exalted the vision of the clairvoyant, the higher the world his or her vision can pierce. Each world has its appropriate inhabitants, clothed in appropriate bodies, and possessing appropriate states of consciousness.

 

Right there I strongly believe is the missing link separating mainstream science and religion/spirituality. Just like Dark Matter can only be hypothesized through indirect evidence I think paranormal phenomena of various types can infer the existence of these subtle realms. 

In fact, I might start a separate discussion thread on this and not take away from the 'third state' discussion.

[pellinore]

2 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

In fact, I might start a separate discussion thread on this and not take away from the 'third state' discussion.

Good idea!

[+Liquid Gardens]

4 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

Just like Dark Matter can only be hypothesized through indirect evidence I think paranormal phenomena of various types can infer the existence of these subtle realms.

But it's not 'just like'.  Dark Matter is hypothesized as an answer to factual, objective measurements that don't agree with scientific theories.  On the far other hand, you are trying to answer questions you specifically subjectively have about stories you've read that you don't know are even accurate.  Dark Matter has the advantage of being based on something that is in abundance: physical non-dark matter.  Your theory on the other hand isn't really related like that to things that we know exist, like your reference to 'clairvoyance' which is massively unproven. Magic or alien technology explain all encounters people have confused as being something paranormal, and there's no reason or evidence I see that 'subtle planes' are a better explanation than either of those and many other possibilities.

[papageorge1]

1 hour ago, Liquid Gardens said:

But it's not 'just like'.  Dark Matter is hypothesized as an answer to factual, objective measurements that don't agree with scientific theories. 

I'll agree it is a little different and maybe I shouldn't have worded it 'just like'. But they are both hypotheses to explain observations that don't make sense assuming only the detectable universe is real.

1 hour ago, Liquid Gardens said:

On the far other hand, you are trying to answer questions you specifically subjectively have about stories you've read that you don't know are even accurate.  Dark Matter has the advantage of being based on something that is in abundance: physical non-dark matter.  Your theory on the other hand isn't really related like that to things that we know exist, like your reference to 'clairvoyance' which is massively unproven. Magic or alien technology explain all encounters people have confused as being something paranormal, and there's no reason or evidence I see that 'subtle planes' are a better explanation than either of those and many other possibilities.

Well, I see 'planes of nature' as the only viable presented explanation for all the different types of paranormal phenomena. Superior certainly to 'magic' and 'alien technology'. 

It is logically fine for you to leave it all as a mystery, but I am at the point of thinking that there is enough reason to strongly form a leading hypothesis because of the quality of many converging sources and the explanatory power the hypothesis produces. There really is no serious rival theory that I have ever heard.

For science, the truth will be told when/if accepted equipment can detect these subtle extradimensional planes.

 

[+Liquid Gardens]

19 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

But they are both hypotheses to explain observations that don't make sense assuming only the detectable universe is real.

Assumed observations in your case, unlike the observations that don't make sense for which dark matter is a potential explanation which are not assumed. Yes, inference is obviously a valid method of 'proving' ideas but I'd stay away from comparisons to science in your case; that we don't even know for sure if there are any observations that require explaining is a big difference.

19 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

Well, I see 'planes of nature' as the only viable presented explanation for all the different types of paranormal phenomena. Superior certainly to 'magic' and 'alien technology'. 

I see no way in which 'planes of nature' is a superior explanation to magic or alien technology, please elaborate if there is anything behind this other than your vague 'consideration'.  Remember, coinciding with your personal subjective beliefs, religious and otherwise, is not an argument for why your explanation is superior.

19 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

the explanatory power the hypothesis produces

Ha, what explanatory power is that?  Based on what we know about these, which is nothing, it is entirely possible and consistent that your planes of nature do actually exist but these planes never 'interpenetrate' into ours now, there is nothing requiring that nor any reason why we should have even the expectation that they do.  You are simply defining the powers and behavior of these planes so that they fit your beliefs/the stories you believe, that's obviously easy to do with things that have no good evidence for their existence:

Papa - planes of nature exist and explain paranormal phenomena, this is the result of these planes interpenetrating ours.  (in general)

Alien technology - Technologically advanced aliens exist and are visiting our planet and beaming the perception and memory of experiences into our brains that didn't actually occur

Magic - Magic exists and expert spellcasters are casting illusions of paranormal activity

This list could go on for a while, with no evidence at hand we are pretty much only bounded by our imagination.  So what's the difference between planes of nature and these alternatives that makes the former 'superior'?  They both suffer from the same problems that we don't even know they exist and even if they do we have no basis for assuming they behave in any particular way.

[XenoFish]

1 hour ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Magic - Magic exists and expert spellcasters are casting illusions of paranormal activity

Don't tell everyone my weekend plans.