ADHD is responsible for modern humans…

[The Puzzler]

Many ADHD traits may have been advantageous in hunter-gatherer settings but are now seen as maladaptive due to modern environmental changes.

Edited October 12, 2024 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

Sorry Cladking but they are. These are regulators of a different homo sapien….not the modern one….

Thats why no one is coping with life right now.

ADHD made us a successful human species but also may be our own downfall…

Edited October 12, 2024 by The Puzzler

[cladking]

19 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

Theres a great Star Trek episode where they go into this.

It's a good episode.  

I even kindda agree with the premise except every individual should be able to pick his own age for "retirement".  

Individuals should be taught with the belief that once they consume more resources than they produce that retirement should be a viable choice and no individual should be allowed to take the world down with him.  This may sound cruel but I've watched and cared for loved ones who passed the point of no return because our culture makes no provision for ending the suffering.  They were usually miserable beyond measure as their once great minds eroded into mere habit and mush.   Such torture should not be inflicted on people who worked hard and tried to their best for an entire lifetime.  We live in a sick culture that tolerates the suffering of many so that our minds can be relieved that they are still with us.  Frequently those who aid in any way an exit from misery are prosecuted like common criminals, doctors are jailed, and pain relieving drugs are withheld because they bring more money on the black market than insurance companies will pay.    

Making the choice to end your life shouldn't involve law, shame, or means.  It should involve only proper timing and this timing is different for every individual.  There are numerous painless ways to go with the most painless being a heroin drip controlled by the wouldbe retiree.  Very few would last longer than a few days no matter how much they enjoyed it and tried to stretch it out.  

[The Puzzler]

27 minutes ago, cladking said:

It's a good episode.  

I even kindda agree with the premise except every individual should be able to pick his own age for "retirement".  

Individuals should be taught with the belief that once they consume more resources than they produce that retirement should be a viable choice and no individual should be allowed to take the world down with him.  This may sound cruel but I've watched and cared for loved ones who passed the point of no return because our culture makes no provision for ending the suffering.  They were usually miserable beyond measure as their once great minds eroded into mere habit and mush.   Such torture should not be inflicted on people who worked hard and tried to their best for an entire lifetime.  We live in a sick culture that tolerates the suffering of many so that our minds can be relieved that they are still with us.  Frequently those who aid in any way an exit from misery are prosecuted like common criminals, doctors are jailed, and pain relieving drugs are withheld because they bring more money on the black market than insurance companies will pay.    

Making the choice to end your life shouldn't involve law, shame, or means.  It should involve only proper timing and this timing is different for every individual.  There are numerous painless ways to go with the most painless being a heroin drip controlled by the wouldbe retiree.  Very few would last longer than a few days no matter how much they enjoyed it and tried to stretch it out.  

Absolutely x

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

11 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

My man is watching Mrs Doubtfire…talking about Robin Williams, knowing I’m on this trip…suicide…he’s like really? I’m like yeah…I suppose he was ADHD?….”Yes, massively.”.

Now I haven’t Googled this but manic depression is in the category imo.

The irony. So upbeat and funny, yet so sad inside….how many times do we see this in people…?

Again, these autistic traits shaped mankind x

There’s a lot of talk that he also had a degenerative condition that would have vegetablised him prior to killing him, so he decided to “go out” on his terms, fully compos menti. 

[Unusual Tournament]

11 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

My daughter comes home…lives in my old home, with my Dad, she’s like I come home and Pops got this happening….

My Dad is 85….had the 60 year old Monstera that really is part of our retro house taken out, we are mortified but Pops like, it’s getting in the drains and brickwork….practical over aesthetics…didn’t even tell us lol xx

My Dad’s 90 and he’s turned the family home into what my sister refers to as the construction zone and gladiator arena where he pits himself against Mother Nature. Example: while hand digging the footings for a 24 meter long retaining wall, he comes across a blue stone bolder measuring over a meter and half in diameter and proceeds to attack it for the next couple of weeks with drills, picks and digging around it, to no avail. Even goes to Bunnings and buys an electric jack hammer that barely scratches the rock and ends up ruining the jack hammer (consequently returns the jack hammer and gets full refund after saying they sold him a faulty machine). Eventually he admits defeat and we organise a bobcat with its own Jack to break up and remove the rock. It was the saddest day for Dad admitting defeat and he still talks about it to this day thinking of new ideas that he should have tried. 
 

Is my Dad an evolutionary wonder? You bet! 👍 

Edited October 12, 2024 by Unusual Tournament

[Kenemet]

16 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

Okely dokely, I said it….

After consideration of everything, I believe people on the autism spectrum, even the end…ADHD people, acted in a way they actually contributed to the survival of Homo sapiens over Neanderthal,  who I don’t believe had this ? Genetic trait, dysfunction, defect…lots of words we could use….

Were the builders of ancient civilisations so imbued with the “need”, not even recognised by themselves to use dysfunctional ways to move forward…such as lack of give a stuff, intrinsic knowledge or following blindly, ability to put 100% into something, then discard it…. social disunity or unity, ability to write and draw incredibly or terribly…things like that….is anyone else seeing this? 

 

Consider the possibility that they may have been ostracized and even killed in many cases.

The condition is a spectrum, not an "either-or"; the mildest cases might add a little something to the personality, but it can go off the scales to an "unable to function" range.  A friend of mine has a 40 year old adult son with that...he is non-verbal, in constant motion, and gets screaming aggressive when he's frustrated.  And he's not toilet trained.

ADHD-autism (called audiADHD https://www.verywellmind.com/what-to-know-about-comorbid-autism-and-adhd-6944530) problems include not being able to readily identify individuals (some are face blind), difficulty understanding what others mean (and unable to answer apparently simple questions like "who is your oldest friend" (audiADHD would ask "do you mean age or how long we've known each other, and do you mean someone I see a few times a year or someone I see more regularly" (just to start))

They can be difficult to teach (not paying attention OR hyperfocused and unable to avoid running down every "rabbit hole" of information, sometimes very fruitlessly)

Robin Williams (and many others) get a "pass" if they can successfully pass themselves off as clowns.  If they're not funny, then they're more likely to be ostracized.  (think of Galileo, for example)  If the person with audiADHD is a woman, she's more likely to have been killed or "disposed of" (locked in the attic in more recent times) because she won't conform to social rules and can't understand things like flirting.

So, while a touch of it might have helped in some ways, it would hinder in others.  And a society of audiADHD folk might not mesh well together.

Advancements have to be adopted by a group.  You can make all the wild advancements you like in technology (Hero of Alexandria, I'm looking at you) but if society as a whole doesn't adopt it, the benefits of this have little to no impact on anything.

[Kenemet]

5 hours ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

There’s a lot of talk that he also had a degenerative condition that would have vegetablised him prior to killing him, so he decided to “go out” on his terms, fully compos menti. 

Lewy Body Dementia. https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/lewy-body-dementia/symptoms-causes/syc-20352025

It's... beyond horrible.  I'm a member of a Parkinson's caregiver group, and those who have Parkinson's and LBD basically lose themselves.  It starts with little things such as looking at your phone and suddenly not knowing how to dial a phone number and progresses.  Not only do you lose control of bowels and bladder, but you also start to hallucinate.  Personality changes drive your loved ones away.  Sleep cycles go way off, and you can do things like thrash about in your sleep and hurt your partner.  Depression worsens, and you get a flat affect (it's difficult to feel other emotions.)

Shattering, really, and affects the whole family.

I can see why he would choose that way out.  

[cladking]

21 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

Sorry Cladking but they are. These are regulators of a different homo sapien….not the modern one….

Thats why no one is coping with life right now.

ADHD made us a successful human species but also may be our own downfall…

Certainly autism can be a problem.  Severe cases are detrimental to the commonweal and the incidence is expanding.  It is likely caused by some environmental insult.  I've long blamed the increase is asthma to carpeting for instance.  Autism might be caused by propagation of bad genes or by garbage added to food or any number of things.  Now days almost everyone is saved by medicine and wealth.  In the distant past severe defects would have been "weeded out".   Less severe autism could easily have been very beneficial because each individual would fill a niche in the culture and the economy.  Near sighted people were microscopes and those with rheumatism barometers.  

I doubt this is any different today except today the economy demands cookie cutter people.  The economy just wants a payroll number in each slot with absolutely no regard to the nature of the individual filling that slot.  We want specialists in every job from nuclear physicists to garbage collectors.  Many individuals are not adept at 9 to 5 or specialization.   They come out of schools that tried and usually failed to prepare them for a life as a specialist.  All the while neither the individual nor his teachers knew any kind of slot that he might one day be trained to occupy.   

Much of the problem isn't the individual who might excel at anything from leading General Motors to custodian of the top floor if we cared more about people than occupations.  

Of course we all have to make our own way in life and nobody is just handed the keys to the city or the keys to the top floor.  But we could certainly do a better job of tailoring education to the individual and helping in his placement.  Many of these individuals could be trained differently and rather than specialists, generalists.  The greatest problems with modern business and industry is no company is pulling together for its benefit.  Not only does the right hand not know what the left is doing but the legs are trying to walk in different directions.  Companies need individuals who can see the big picture rather than more specialists and more money to throw at the problems that inevitably arise.

And of course government is orders of magnitude more inefficient.  

We are headed to tower of babel 2.0 for these reasons and this time it is likely to be an extinction event.  

Perhaps rather than autistic people dragging us all down they can be our salvation or even lead us back to the garden.  But in any case they are still human beings and still need the same things we all do.  They still have the same rights.  

[The Puzzler]

40 minutes ago, cladking said:

Certainly autism can be a problem.  Severe cases are detrimental to the commonweal and the incidence is expanding.  It is likely caused by some environmental insult.  I've long blamed the increase is asthma to carpeting for instance.  Autism might be caused by propagation of bad genes or by garbage added to food or any number of things.  Now days almost everyone is saved by medicine and wealth.  In the distant past severe defects would have been "weeded out".   Less severe autism could easily have been very beneficial because each individual would fill a niche in the culture and the economy.  Near sighted people were microscopes and those with rheumatism barometers.  

I doubt this is any different today except today the economy demands cookie cutter people.  The economy just wants a payroll number in each slot with absolutely no regard to the nature of the individual filling that slot.  We want specialists in every job from nuclear physicists to garbage collectors.  Many individuals are not adept at 9 to 5 or specialization.   They come out of schools that tried and usually failed to prepare them for a life as a specialist.  All the while neither the individual nor his teachers knew any kind of slot that he might one day be trained to occupy.   

Much of the problem isn't the individual who might excel at anything from leading General Motors to custodian of the top floor if we cared more about people than occupations.  

Of course we all have to make our own way in life and nobody is just handed the keys to the city or the keys to the top floor.  But we could certainly do a better job of tailoring education to the individual and helping in his placement.  Many of these individuals could be trained differently and rather than specialists, generalists.  The greatest problems with modern business and industry is no company is pulling together for its benefit.  Not only does the right hand not know what the left is doing but the legs are trying to walk in different directions.  Companies need individuals who can see the big picture rather than more specialists and more money to throw at the problems that inevitably arise.

And of course government is orders of magnitude more inefficient.  

We are headed to tower of babel 2.0 for these reasons and this time it is likely to be an extinction event.  

Perhaps rather than autistic people dragging us all down they can be our salvation or even lead us back to the garden.  But in any case they are still human beings and still need the same things we all do.  They still have the same rights.  

They can be, we as human  beings could understand it’s our strange conditions that make us think more.

Yes, my eldest daughter, the collector one, she collects Bratz dolls, like my whole life with her when a kid was Bratz dolls, she even dresses and looks like a Goth Bratz doll….(I collected Barbie dolls so…) who went to Uni, is now a social worker and takes medication for ADHD used to pull her hair out, severely,

Im like you should do a thesis on ADHD, she’s like nah, I’m doing one on a very misunderstood condition called Trichotillomania.

Edited October 13, 2024 by The Puzzler

[cormac mac airt]

On 10/12/2024 at 4:31 AM, The Puzzler said:

Okely dokely, I said it….

After consideration of everything, I believe people on the autism spectrum, even the end…ADHD people, acted in a way they actually contributed to the survival of Homo sapiens over Neanderthal,  who I don’t believe had this ? Genetic trait, dysfunction, defect…lots of words we could use….

Were the builders of ancient civilisations so imbued with the “need”, not even recognised by themselves to use dysfunctional ways to move forward…such as lack of give a stuff, intrinsic knowledge or following blindly, ability to put 100% into something, then discard it…. social disunity or unity, ability to write and draw incredibly or terribly…things like that….is anyone else seeing this? 

 

Probably did:

Quote

Attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) is an impairing neurodevelopmental condition highly prevalent in current populations. Several hypotheses have been proposed to explain this paradox, mainly in the context of the Paleolithic versus Neolithic cultural shift but especially within the framework of the mismatch theory. This theory elaborates on how a particular trait once favoured in an ancient environment might become maladaptive upon environmental changes. However, given the lack of genomic data available for ADHD, these theories have not been empirically tested. We took advantage of the largest GWAS meta-analysis available for this disorder consisting of over 20,000 individuals diagnosed with ADHD and 35,000 controls, to assess the evolution of ADHD-associated alleles in European populations using archaic, ancient and modern human samples. We also included Approximate Bayesian computation coupled with deep learning analyses and singleton density scores to detect human adaptation. Our analyses indicate that ADHD-associated alleles are enriched in loss of function intolerant genes, supporting the role of selective pressures in this early-onset phenotype. Furthermore, we observed that the frequency of variants associated with ADHD has steadily decreased since Paleolithic times, particularly in Paleolithic European populations compared to samples from the Neolithic Fertile Crescent. We demonstrate this trend cannot be explained by African admixture nor Neanderthal introgression, since introgressed Neanderthal alleles are enriched in ADHD risk variants. All analyses performed support the presence of long-standing selective pressures acting against ADHD-associated alleles until recent times. Overall, our results are compatible with the mismatch theory for ADHD but suggest a much older time frame for the evolution of ADHD-associated alleles compared to previous hypotheses.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-65322-4

The above suggests ADHD ISN’T constrained to just Homo sapiens. 
 

cormac

Edited October 13, 2024 by cormac mac airt

[The Puzzler]

11 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Probably did:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-65322-4

The above suggests ADHD ISN’T constrained to just Homo sapiens. 
 

cormac

Oh right, OK.

So is mtDNA K…

Additionally, a study from 2020 found that the presence of haplogroup K served as a protective agent against ADHD, with a significant value 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_K_(mtDNA)

Interesting.

 

Edited October 13, 2024 by The Puzzler

[Antigonos]

19 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

The above suggests ADHD ISN’T constrained to just Homo sapiens. 
 

cormac

Think it’s a wider mammalian issue? Because I swear I’ve had a dog and some cats who were ADHD.

[The Puzzler]

7 minutes ago, Antigonos said:

Think it’s a wider mammalian issue? Because I swear I’ve had a dog and some cats who were ADHD.

My dog is for sure.

Bull Terrier, has massive issues.

He accidently tore apart my right arm and broke it, really badly, back in June, I now have PTSD of my dogs fighting…vicious circle.

He didn’t mean it, he just thought I was the attacking dog. 
Still, I’m a waitress and can only carry one plate at a time, even now, dufus head. 

Edited October 13, 2024 by The Puzzler

[cormac mac airt]

18 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

Oh right, OK.

So is mtDNA K…

Additionally, a study from 2020 found that the presence of haplogroup K served as a protective agent against ADHD, with a significant value 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_K_(mtDNA)

Interesting.

 

I’ve previously read the 2020 study and found it interesting. What many either don’t know or ignore about Neanderthals is that they were already in genetic decline millennia before introgression with Homo sapiens occurred and their population level was never as high as Homo sapiens. To add to that competition with us was pretty much a perfect storm of hurdles they just couldn’t clear. 
 

cormac

[The Puzzler]

24 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

I’ve previously read the 2020 study and found it interesting. What many either don’t know or ignore about Neanderthals is that they were already in genetic decline millennia before introgression with Homo sapiens occurred and their population level was never as high as Homo sapiens. To add to that competition with us was pretty much a perfect storm of hurdles they just couldn’t clear. 
 

cormac

Yes. I’ve read of many other reasons but maybe this one just jumped up and bit the last remnants…

Is it the cave art? The excessive religious control….maybe we had a better ability to use it to our advantage…

 

Edited October 13, 2024 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

Neanderthals, if they did have ADHD, which they could have, may show it as the factor that contributed to us being homo species to begin with. They just didn’t have a need to harness it like Homo sapiens……

[Antigonos]

29 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

My dog is for sure.

Bull Terrier, has massive issues.

He accidently tore apart my right arm and broke it, really badly, back in June, I now have PTSD of my dogs fighting…vicious circle.

He didn’t mean it, he just thought I was the attacking dog. 
Still, I’m a waitress and can only carry one plate at a time, even now, dufus head. 

Yikes. Can’t imagine how painful that must have been!

[The Puzzler]

13 minutes ago, Antigonos said:

Yikes. Can’t imagine how painful that must have been!

Physically and psychologically, UM even deleted my picture, it was too graphic but yeah hey, thanks, it was, bone hanging out, the whole bit.

[Abramelin]

28 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

Neanderthals, if they did have ADHD, which they could have, may show it as the factor that contributed to us being homo species to begin with. They just didn’t have a need to harness it like Homo sapiens……

I think that many or most of these psychologically based reasons why Neanderthals lost the 'battle' against modern humans is based on pure bull.

Piney said it a short while ago: we out**** them. Period.

And that's why in about a century Muslims will be the majority.

[The Puzzler]

I can’t even trust my own dog anymore,  and he loves me unconditionally.

But I’m digressing, as usual.

[The Puzzler]

12 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

I think that many or most of these psychologically based reasons why Neanderthals lost the 'battle' against modern humans is based on pure bull.

Piney said it a short while ago: we out**** them. Period.

And that's why in about a century Muslims will be the majority.

That’s saying it like it is, not that I expect any less from you.

We out****** them.

But what made Homo sapiens do that…? Intentional, unintentional…?

You’re correct, they have like 6 kids each while the Western world is having 2.5 kids…

Edited October 13, 2024 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

I think it’s interesting that the ADHD is carried by Neanderthals and modern humans has a lack of it conforming  in mtDNA K, of which (again) however you wish to look at the figures, remains the predominant maternal Jewish clade…

Except U…K being an offshoot from U via U’K..

Additionally, a study from 2020 found that the presence of haplogroup K served as a protective agent against ADHD, with a significant value ().^[46] Used in conjunction with haplogroup U, the precursor to haplogroup K, was shown to have an even more significant effect in protecting against ADHD in the participants ().^[

 

Edited October 13, 2024 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

12 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

But what made Homo sapiens do that…? Intentional, unintentional…?

Unintentional.

Well, that's what Ì think.

We modern humans produced more offspring than the Neanderthals did. Piney's point.

We weren't smarter, we weren't stronger, we weren't more technologically advanced.

We simply created more offspring than the Neanderthals did.

Edited October 13, 2024 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

12 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

Unintentional.

Well, that's what Ì think.

We modern humans produced more offspring than the Neanderthals did. Piney's point.

We weren't smarter, we weren't stronger, we weren't more technologically advanced.

We simply created more offspring than the Neanderthals did.

I think I read the same article….we did.

But you’re talking end times….they had a chance to not get to that point….

So many Homo sapiens, so llittle Neanderthals…it was an easy task by then.

But how did Neanderthals get to such a low point to begin with.

Didnt they possess the (by then, more) evolved ADHD skills to forage better, to be quicker thinking, to be more…everything? Did ADHD actually make our brains smaller but more quick thinking, impulsive, believing, devious, .all those things that make us successful in a strange way but  could also be dangerous and even disastrous to mankind itself, if not controlled or recognised…

Edited October 13, 2024 by The Puzzler