Chinese student to face criminal charges for voting in Michigan. Ballot will apparently count

[Tatetopa]

1 hour ago, Gromdor said:

To be honest, we do have a system to verify citizenship.  The problem lies in the fact that we don't want automatic or nationalized voter registration.  So there is a seperate step which varies from state to state to register or remove registery of voters.  That's where we get the problem of people voting in more than one state or having to prove citizenship.  It's stupid to have to prove you are a citizen to a government that already knows but that extra hassle is the reason why they want to do it.

Round about 2010 more stringent laws were passed concerning military contracts.  I had to prove to the company I had worked for the last 20 years that I was a US citizen.  To do so, I had to provide a registered certificate of birth. I had to send off to Dallas Texas to get a registered certificate of live birth. It cost $20 and took a couple of weeks.  Its not the piece of paper with the baby footprint that your parents have in  a scrap book.  It is a notarized government document. It is not a step that one can do in line at the polling place.  

I had to satisfy the government that I was not a foreign national working on sensitive projects, and yet, to your point, it didn't carry over to voter registration.

[+HerNibs]

22 hours ago, Tom1200 said:

This shouldn't be able to happen.  Only bona fide citizens should have any say in how a country is governed.  Taxation and representation and all that.  You need to sharpen up your systems and get some security measures in place.

Here in Brit-land we can't even enter the polling station without photo-id.  Then it's checked again as we beg for the ballot paper from the harridans on duty.  Each ballot paper has a unique number which is recorded against your name on the electoral roll.  In theory that ballot paper can be located at any time to check how you voted.  I believe we have the right to demand that some poor sod looks through 50,000 papers to demonstrate that my vote hasn't been overlooked, but that might just be a myth.

So in theory at least a non-citizen could only cast a vote be pretending to be a proper registered citizen, and if fraud were proven a specific ballot paper could be located and removed.  Are Americans really so laissez-faire about election security?

Ok, lemme 'splain - 

Only bona fide citizens can vote in a federal election.  Much work is done at registration to verify that the person registering is eligible for federal elections.  A few areas allow non-citizens to vote on VERY local items.  Registration lists are bumped against each other on city/county/state levels to check on duplicate registration.  Lists are bumped against federal Social Security lists for verification.  Can someone lie and swear that they are eligible? Yup.  Is this prosecutable? Yup. Should we prosecute?  Extra huge YUP!

There are many reasons given about requiring ID.  Personally, I don't have a problem with it.  In the US it cannot "cost" anything for an eligible citizen to vote.  State and federally recognized IDs cost money to obtain.  So essentially, it would put a price on being allowed to vote.  This is considered disenfranchising.  Big no no.  My humble opinion? Create some type of free ID.  Election offices and the systems that are utilized have the ability to create and print a Voter Registration Card. Once verification is complete, issue these cards FOR FREE.  Pass legislation that allows these to be considered valid ID.  But just my opinion.

Regarding tracking a ballot.  Nope, cannot be done in the US.  In Britain I believe there is a database that exists that does have the ballot number associated with the voter.  We don't have that here.  In fact, much work is done to make sure that can never be done.  The ballot number on the ballot is never associated with the voter.  It is simply an mechanism that prevents duplicates from being created. The voter number that is assigned to each individual is what is used to track if the person has voted.  Never HOW they voted.  Once a ballot has been removed from the mail in envelope or been handed to the individual at a polling place there is no way to link the ballot to the person.  Same with electronic voting.  The voter number is only linked with where and if the person voted.  Never how they voted.  Not legal.

Nibs

 

[papageorge1]

28 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

Same day registration and the immediate tabulation of the vote is what I would say went wrong.  What went right was that the guy was caught in literally a day.

I don't mind your idea of a "Citizen Card".  It can be your Social Security card with a chip like a credit card.  Ditch the whole register to vote system and use the database we use to confirm citizenship as verification.  Doesn't even have to have a photo- when you swipe it, whoever reads it gets a pop up picture to compare your face to.  Picture can be from the driver's license photo database or where ever.  As biometric/facial ID tech progresses we can get rid of the card too.  Your body becomes the card.

Seems like we are pushing for a photo/video database anyways with all these demands for picture ID.  

It doesn’t sound to me like the guy was caught a day later. More accurately it sounds like he stupidly turned himself in. How many similar cases don’t turn themselves in? 99%?
 

We definitely need a tighter system after hearing cases like this. I prefer more effort on the part of voters over making it easy if there is a tradeoff required. And that’s not racist.

[Doc Socks Junior]

38 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

Same day registration and the immediate tabulation of the vote is what I would say went wrong.  What went right was that the guy was caught in literally a day.

I don't mind your idea of a "Citizen Card".  It can be your Social Security card with a chip like a credit card.  Ditch the whole register to vote system and use the database we use to confirm citizenship as verification.  Doesn't even have to have a photo- when you swipe it, whoever reads it gets a pop up picture to compare your face to.  Picture can be from the driver's license photo database or where ever.  As biometric/facial ID tech progresses we can get rid of the card too.  Your body becomes the card.

Seems like we are pushing for a photo/video database anyways with all these demands for picture ID.  

I wasn't completely joking with my suggestion. The injected microchips, and buying and selling, and the B.E.A.S.T., now that was a little much, of course.

Apparently there were pushes for it post 9/11, and the current REAL ID push is actually related to that.

[Gromdor]

13 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

It doesn’t sound to me like the guy was caught a day later. More accurately it sounds like he stupidly turned himself in. How many similar cases don’t turn themselves in? 99%?
 

We definitely need a tighter system after hearing cases like this. I prefer more effort on the part of voters over making it easy if there is a tradeoff required. And that’s not racist.

The Constitution and voting being a right is something we can't ignore.  So you can't make it harder.

[+HerNibs]

11 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

We definitely need a tighter system after hearing cases like this. I prefer more effort on the part of voters over making it easy if there is a tradeoff required. And that’s not racist.

YES YES YES!!!

Hold the voter/person responsible! The system works if the individual doesn't TRY to get around it. 

Prosecute people who intentionally do this crap.  Like it or not, this individual fraudulently affirmed his status.  Perjury.  Prosecute.

Same for registering.

Nibs

[Gromdor]

32 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

It doesn’t sound to me like the guy was caught a day later. More accurately it sounds like he stupidly turned himself in. How many similar cases don’t turn themselves in? 99%?
 

We definitely need a tighter system after hearing cases like this. I prefer more effort on the part of voters over making it easy if there is a tradeoff required. And that’s not racist.

Isn't there a thread on purging potential non-citizens in VA?  1600 people out of 8.72 million and even then they aren't 100% certain they are truly non-citizens.  Virginia has 6.32 million voters so math shows that it is .02531% problem and they were all flagged by the system.

Edited November 1, 2024 by Gromdor

[papageorge1]

26 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

The Constitution and voting being a right is something we can't ignore.  So you can't make it harder.

I’m going to disagree. There can be rules for exercising your rights. There already are rules.

[papageorge1]

15 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

Isn't there a thread on purging potential non-citizens in VA?  1600 people out of 8.72 million and even then they aren't 100% certain they are truly non-citizens.  Virginia has 6.32 million voters so math shows that it is .02531% problem and they were all flagged by the system.

It could potentially increase. Politics is getting dirtier. Let’s get it right. 

[Gromdor]

13 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

It could potentially increase. Politics is getting dirtier. Let’s get it right. 

There is no desire to get it right.  I honestly, think it is this way by design to create uncertainty and distract.  

Getting it right would entail getting rid of the whole "Voter Registration" system as we have it because it is deliberately flawed.

Take this case for instance.  It's actually none of my business.  The people that created it and run it is Michiganites like you.  Here in Iowa we can do whatever we want with our own system with whatever flaws we want and no one can do a thing about it.  Same for every other state.  All it would take is a few corrupt localized politicians to change the rules to whatever favors them.  They always start by saying it is broken....

[preacherman76]

4 hours ago, Gromdor said:

How long do you think it takes?  The article says he registered and voted Sunday. 

He then realized his mistake and went to the Dean and tried to get his ballot back.  The article was printed Wednesday.  Everything happened in the span of 2-3days.  I think that was an awesome job of catching someone (but he confessed, so that might not count).

During this conversation, I couldn't help notice that you kept leaping from one false conclusion to another-  You thought that there was no photo ID and you thought they didn't check it.  

So basically without a confession anyone can register and vote. 

[preacherman76]

3 hours ago, Gromdor said:

To be honest, we do have a system to verify citizenship.  The problem lies in the fact that we don't want automatic or nationalized voter registration.  So there is a seperate step which varies from state to state to register or remove registery of voters.  That's where we get the problem of people voting in more than one state or having to prove citizenship.  It's stupid to have to prove you are a citizen to a government that already knows but that extra hassle is the reason why they want to do it.

In New York if you have a drivers license you can register to vote. I watched a lady from the DMV ask a guy who had a translator with him to register several times. Each time he said no. She was pressuring him to do it. Thousand of illegals openly vote in the state of New York 

[Gromdor]

6 minutes ago, preacherman76 said:

So basically without a confession anyone can register and vote. 

And get caught and go to jail...

 

[Gromdor]

2 minutes ago, preacherman76 said:

In New York if you have a drivers license you can register to vote. I watched a lady from the DMV ask a guy who had a translator with him to register several times. Each time he said no. She was pressuring him to do it. Thousand of illegals openly vote in the state of New York 

So...  You checked his citizenship?   

[+HerNibs]

Just now, preacherman76 said:

In New York if you have a drivers license you can register to vote. I watched a lady from the DMV ask a guy who had a translator with him to register several times. Each time he said no. She was pressuring him to do it. Thousand of illegals openly vote in the state of New York 

You can attempt to register to vote.  The actual registration isn't immediately done when the forms are filled out.  Before the person is considered registered there are verification that have to take place.

Yeah, DMVs are pressured to get people to fill out the forms.  Filling out the form doesn't get them registered.

Nibs

[preacherman76]

Just now, Gromdor said:

And get caught and go to jail...

 

Would he have been caught though? Last election we have on film an election worker assuring a lady her illegal boyfriend could come in and vote. 

[preacherman76]

Just now, Gromdor said:

So...  You checked his citizenship?   

He had a damn translator with him. 

[+HerNibs]

Just now, preacherman76 said:

Would he have been caught though? Last election we have on film an election worker assuring a lady her illegal boyfriend could come in and vote. 

Where?  Is there actual video online?

Nibs

[+HerNibs]

Just now, preacherman76 said:

He had a damn translator with him. 

So? Speaking fluent English isn't a requirement for citizenship is it?

Nibs

[preacherman76]

1 minute ago, HerNibs said:

You can attempt to register to vote.  The actual registration isn't immediately done when the forms are filled out.  Before the person is considered registered there are verification that have to take place.

Yeah, DMVs are pressured to get people to fill out the forms.  Filling out the form doesn't get them registered.

Nibs

Sure it does. All they need is an address. Heck Obama just before he left office told illegals that voting makes them a citizen. 

[Gromdor]

Just now, preacherman76 said:

He had a damn translator with him. 

That doesn't mean he isn't a US citizen.  Had this whole discussion about 50% of Puerto Ricans only speaking Spanish but still being US citizens.  It seems to be that you are just making assumptions about something you observed from the outside.

[preacherman76]

2 minutes ago, HerNibs said:

Where?  Is there actual video online?

Nibs

Yes ma’am. Now I watched it soon after it happened so I don’t know if it had been scrubbed. I’ll try to find it soon as I get a chance. 

[preacherman76]

1 minute ago, Gromdor said:

That doesn't mean he isn't a US citizen.  Had this whole discussion about 50% of Puerto Ricans only speaking Spanish but still being US citizens.  It seems to be that you are just making assumptions about something you observed from the outside.

Well considering my state was flooded with illegals, it stands to reason. 

[+HerNibs]

4 minutes ago, preacherman76 said:

Sure it does. All they need is an address. Heck Obama just before he left office told illegals that voting makes them a citizen. 

Nope.  It doesn't.  Not at all.

Don't know anything about what Obama said but if he did say it he was wrong too.

Nibs

[+HerNibs]

3 minutes ago, preacherman76 said:

Yes ma’am. Now I watched it soon after it happened so I don’t know if it had been scrubbed. I’ll try to find it soon as I get a chance. 

 Awesome!

Thanks!

Nibs