Criticisms of NATO

[Duke Wellington]

So NATO are supposedly led by some of the West`s brightest and best senior military officers.

Issue 1: They would have known even before the Ukrainian-Russian conflict that Ukraine wouldn`t have a chance in hell of winning on its own.

Issue 2: They would have known NATO would not risk a nuclear exchange with Russia by going to war with them.

So the problem I have is they have allowed the Ukrainian President to fall for the dream of NATO and EU membership. They have let him destroy the Ukrainian relationship with Russia, as that relationship has broken down they have allowed the war to occur, and they have allowed that war to continue despite Ukraine not having a chance in hell, by drip feeding it old and surplus military equipment and vehicles.

Meanwhile our politicians have allowed a culture to emerge where criticising the conflict is not allowed, where the only outcome would be a Ukrainian victory, and where Russia has consistently been portrayed as getting massacred and as being incompetent. All reporting of the conflict is full to the brim of distortions to back this up. In short, NATO has blood on its hands, it has allowed and continues to allow, large numbers of Ukrainian men to have their lives thrown away for nothing. 

I don`t know if the problem is too many yes men within NATO senior ranks telling Western politicians what they want to hear, or overconfidence in Western weapons. I suspect its the first and that our politicians and media are to blame. I say that because of all the BS both politicians and the media have been engaged in for years, and suspect that if NATO senior military officers speak out then they get driven out by those politicians and media. 

[Setton]

BREAKING: EXCLUSIVE PHOTO OF @Duke Wellington WRITING THIS POST

 

[Grey Area]

5 hours ago, Duke Wellington said:

Issue 1: They would have known even before the Ukrainian-Russian conflict that Ukraine wouldn`t have a chance in hell of winning on its own.

Nobody expected Ukraine to last beyond about two weeks, and here we are.  

 

5 hours ago, Duke Wellington said:

Issue 2: They would have known NATO would not risk a nuclear exchange with Russia by going to war with them.

I would hope NATO would know NATO wouldn’t risk a nuclear exchange.

5 hours ago, Duke Wellington said:

So the problem I have is

That the Russian military is rubbish?

5 hours ago, Duke Wellington said:

have allowed the Ukrainian President to fall for the dream of NATO and EU membership.

Is EU membership a dream?  Dont tell @pellinore he’ll recruit you to the EU propaganda agency.

5 hours ago, Duke Wellington said:

They have let him destroy the Ukrainian relationship with Russia,

Is it NATO’s position as a military treaty to be interfering with national politics?

6 hours ago, Duke Wellington said:

as that relationship has broken down they have allowed the war to occur, and they have allowed that war to continue

Is it NATO’s position to be defending non-members?

6 hours ago, Duke Wellington said:

and they have allowed that war to continue despite Ukraine not having a chance in hell, by drip feeding it old and surplus military equipment and vehicles.

Would you prefer a full scale NATO intervention?  Do you think that would have been the right move?

6 hours ago, Duke Wellington said:

Meanwhile our politicians have allowed a culture to emerge where criticising the conflict is not allowed

Is that really true?  It is generally accepted that Russia’s invasion was wrong.  The viewpoint that Ukraine is somehow wrong for opposing an invasion is silly.

You are free to say what you want about Ukraine, but others are also free to criticise what you say.  And therein lies the real issue eh?  The pro-Russian viewpoint is a minority view, for many good reasons.

6 hours ago, Duke Wellington said:

where the only outcome would be a Ukrainian victory,

This would be nice.

6 hours ago, Duke Wellington said:

and where Russia has consistently been portrayed as getting massacred and as being incompetent.

Russian losses have been significant, their tactics have been questionable.

6 hours ago, Duke Wellington said:

All reporting of the conflict is full to the brim of distortions to back this up. In short, NATO has blood on its hands,

It depends where you are getting your reporting from.  Not all of us rely on Telegram.

Is NATO responsible for reporting on the war?

6 hours ago, Duke Wellington said:

I don`t know if the problem is too many yes men within NATO senior ranks telling Western politicians what they want to hear,

Because every nations leaders take their orders from NATO?

6 hours ago, Duke Wellington said:

overconfidence in Western weapons.

I think that confidence has been vindicated.

6 hours ago, Duke Wellington said:

I suspect its the first and that our politicians and media are to blame. I say that because of all the BS both politicians and the media have been engaged in for years,

So our politicians should surrender Ukraine, because foreign politicians can do that on behalf of other nations?

6 hours ago, Duke Wellington said:

and suspect that if NATO senior military officers speak out then they get driven out by those politicians and media. 

On what evidence are you basing this assertion?  Is it because you are struggling to find others that don’t share your opinion?  Must be a conspiracy right?

[Unusual Tournament]

6 hours ago, Duke Wellington said:

So NATO are supposedly led by some of the West`s brightest and best senior military officers.

Issue 1: They would have known even before the Ukrainian-Russian conflict that Ukraine wouldn`t have a chance in hell of winning on its own.

Issue 2: They would have known NATO would not risk a nuclear exchange with Russia by going to war with them.

So the problem I have is they have allowed the Ukrainian President to fall for the dream of NATO and EU membership. They have let him destroy the Ukrainian relationship with Russia, as that relationship has broken down they have allowed the war to occur, and they have allowed that war to continue despite Ukraine not having a chance in hell, by drip feeding it old and surplus military equipment and vehicles.

Meanwhile our politicians have allowed a culture to emerge where criticising the conflict is not allowed, where the only outcome would be a Ukrainian victory, and where Russia has consistently been portrayed as getting massacred and as being incompetent. All reporting of the conflict is full to the brim of distortions to back this up. In short, NATO has blood on its hands, it has allowed and continues to allow, large numbers of Ukrainian men to have their lives thrown away for nothing. 

I don`t know if the problem is too many yes men within NATO senior ranks telling Western politicians what they want to hear, or overconfidence in Western weapons. I suspect its the first and that our politicians and media are to blame. I say that because of all the BS both politicians and the media have been engaged in for years, and suspect that if NATO senior military officers speak out then they get driven out by those politicians and media. 

Don’t think Ukraine militarily winning was the issue. Creating the conditions for regime change in Russia so another useful idiot like Yeltsin could come to power was the objective.

So in that sense NATO took a gamble with nothing to lose. The fact that they lost the bet is another story 

[pellinore]

1 hour ago, Grey Area said:

Is EU membership a dream?  Dont tell @pellinore he’ll recruit you to the EU propaganda agency.

It is propaganda to admit the UK would be far better off as part of the EU on the grounds of economics and security? To admit that our future lies in our own continent, not Asia, India or Africa? That pretending our so-called 'special relationship' with the US trumps all (pun intended)? That 'Taking Back Control' has back-fired on immigration (which has tripled), import checks (still being kicked down the road) ,and the economy (which has tanked)?

Okay, so now the truth is propaganda- it's still the truth, though. Only a few of the morons who voted for Brexit are still able to convince themselves it was a good idea now we have seen the reality.

 

[pellinore]

7 hours ago, Duke Wellington said:

 They have let him destroy the Ukrainian relationship with Russia,

You, Duke Wellington, are a moron. Russia invaded Ukraine, tortured and killed civilians in Bucha and other towns, and has continued to prosecute an illegal war in which hundreds of thousands of people have been killed in the most cruel manner.

That's the relationship you think they should have? Good, is it, you quarter-wit?

Edited November 2 by pellinore

[Unusual Tournament]

7 minutes ago, pellinore said:

You, Duke Wellington, are a moron. Russia invaded Ukraine, tortured and killed civilians in Bucha and other towns, and has continued to prosecute an illegal war in which hundreds of thousands of people have been killed in the most cruel manner.

That's the relationship you think they should have? Good, is it, you quarter-wit?

Ukraine was an open political battlefield between the west and Russia for 20 years before Putin invaded

[pellinore]

19 minutes ago, Unusual Tournament said:

Ukraine was an open political battlefield between the west and Russia for 20 years before Putin invaded

It was a sort of battlefield training area for Russia? The recognition as a sovereign country by the UN is something Putin could legitimately ignore? Could Canada legally invade the US because it is a 'contested area'? Poland will be a political battlefield if Ukraine falls- then Germany- what if Putin decides the US is a 'political battlefield' (he probably already has). Don't be an apologist for terrorism- I expected more of you.

Edited November 2 by pellinore

[Unusual Tournament]

16 minutes ago, pellinore said:

It was a sort of battlefield training area for Russia? The recognition as a sovereign country by the UN is something Putin could legitimately ignore? Could Canada legally invade the US because it is a 'contested area'? Poland will be a political battlefield if Ukraine falls- then Germany- what if Putin decides the US is a 'political battlefield' (he probably already has). Don't be an apologist for terrorism- I expected more of you.

I’d rather live in the west than under an authoritarian regime. So I apologise for nothing. Just pointing out there are two sides equally to blame for the mess that is Ukraine. 

[Grey Area]

1 hour ago, pellinore said:

It is propaganda to admit the UK would be far better off as part of the EU on the grounds of economics and security? To admit that our future lies in our own continent, not Asia, India or Africa? That pretending our so-called 'special relationship' with the US trumps all (pun intended)? That 'Taking Back Control' has back-fired on immigration (which has tripled), import checks (still being kicked down the road) ,and the economy (which has tanked)?

Okay, so now the truth is propaganda- it's still the truth, though. Only a few of the morons who voted for Brexit are still able to convince themselves it was a good idea now we have seen the reality.

 

Sigh… It was a facetious comment Pellinor.

[Duke Wellington]

1 hour ago, pellinore said:

It is propaganda to admit the UK would be far better off as part of the EU on the grounds of economics and security? To admit that our future lies in our own continent, not Asia, India or Africa? That pretending our so-called 'special relationship' with the US trumps all (pun intended)? That 'Taking Back Control' has back-fired on immigration (which has tripled), import checks (still being kicked down the road) ,and the economy (which has tanked)?

Okay, so now the truth is propaganda- it's still the truth, though. Only a few of the morons who voted for Brexit are still able to convince themselves it was a good idea now we have seen the reality.

 

Please don`t derail this thread with your EU love fantasy.

You think the problems in Ukraine began with Russia crossing the border. Well, they go back way before then, to when the government of Ukraine was couped and two minor Nazi parties put in charge by the USA. Not far-right, actual openly Nazi parties.

That`s why Russia see`s Ukraine as full of Nazis. Their move to make having dual Ukrainian-Russian citizenship illegal with a sentence of up to 10 years in prison, and their banning of the Russian language, and their own love fantasies about the EU, is what started this off.

[Antigonos]

19 hours ago, Setton said:

BREAKING: EXCLUSIVE PHOTO OF @Duke Wellington WRITING THIS POST

 

The real Duke would have kicked his butt for role playing his name.

[pellinore]

23 hours ago, Grey Area said:

Sigh… It was a facetious comment Pellinor.

Facetious or not, if you don't want to be part of Europe, **** off to India, Africa, the US or wherever you want to be and let us live in harmony with our own continent. You are not happy with being European, fair enough, but don't destroy things for us who are happy with our continent.

[Duke Wellington]

38 minutes ago, pellinore said:

Facetious or not, if you don't want to be part of Europe, **** off to India, Africa, the US or wherever you want to be and let us live in harmony with our own continent. You are not happy with being European, fair enough, but don't destroy things for us who are happy with our continent.

Your EU love fantasy is renown amongst these boards.

But don`t you see, we also want free from Europe. That continent is nothing but trouble, all the way throughout history, and its always us Brits that has to sort it out and save them. Look at what is going on right now. They want to expand east, have got their claws into Ukraine, and have us supplying weapons and training to that ends.

Whatever next, we will do the actual fighting for them too? Notice the basis of the relationship, not just on this topic, but many economic ones too - We give, they take. And what we don`t currently give for them to take, they keep demanding. What utter nonsense, that is not a fair trading agreement.

[Ajay0]

On 11/2/2024 at 8:34 PM, Duke Wellington said:

So NATO are supposedly led by some of the West`s brightest and best senior military officers.

This is laughable. 

I have been wondering on the dysfunctional leadership of US-Nato for years now, considering their humiliating defeat at the hands of the Taliban after 20 years of fighing, heavy casualties and trillions of dollars down the drain. Worse, the billions of dollars worth of military equipment left behind in Afghanistan is now bound to heavily increase the capabilities of Islamic militants and also find their way to the Chinese. Their stunning defeat also probably prepared the ground for the October 7 terrorist attacks on Israel. 

US-Nato expansion to eastern europe to the borders of Russia, ignoring the promise they made to Gorbachev and the conflict they started now opens the window to a potential nuclear war and holocaust.

Is this what European and especially American taxpayers paid for with heavy taxes, at the cost of necessary healthcare, education and housing in their own countries for the common man ! The number of homeless in the west is increasing in the thousands each year living in tents , parks, cars and so on without basic facilities.

The security apparatus that has brought such ludicrous decision-making should be audited sternly and made accountable for their lapses, and prevented from creating more such blunders of a higher magnitude.

Edited November 4 by Ajay0

[Duke Wellington]

1 hour ago, Ajay0 said:

This is laughable. 

I have been wondering on the dysfunctional leadership of US-Nato for years now, considering their humiliating defeat at the hands of the Taliban after 20 years of fighing, heavy casualties and trillions of dollars down the drain. Worse, the billions of dollars worth of military equipment left behind in Afghanistan is now bound to heavily increase the capabilities of Islamic militants and also find their way to the Chinese. Their stunning defeat also probably prepared the ground for the October 7 terrorist attacks on Israel. 

US-Nato expansion to eastern europe to the borders of Russia, ignoring the promise they made to Gorbachev and the conflict they started now opens the window to a potential nuclear war and holocaust.

Is this what European and especially American taxpayers paid for with heavy taxes, at the cost of necessary healthcare, education and housing in their own countries for the common man ! The number of homeless in the west is increasing in the thousands each year living in tents , parks, cars and so on without basic facilities.

The security apparatus that has brought such ludicrous decision-making should be audited sternly and made accountable for their lapses, and prevented from creating more such blunders of a higher magnitude.

All the military senior brass said yes sir Mr President/Prime Minister, we can beat the Taliban.

All the while knowing at the back of their minds that there are almost zero existing examples of an occupying force defeating a resistance in history. Oh, and in the case of Britain, all our previous failed attempts at doing it in.... drum roll please.... Afghanistan.

Edited November 4 by Duke Wellington

[Ajay0]

21 minutes ago, Duke Wellington said:

All the military senior brass said yes sir Mr President/Prime Minister, we can beat the Taliban. 

All the while knowing at the back of their minds that there are almost zero existing examples of an occupying force defeating a resistance in history. Oh, and in the case of Britain, all our previous failed attempts at doing it in.... drum roll please.... Afghanistan.

From what I know, even the Taliban was amazed by all the riches and luxury they found after they won back Afghanistan in 2021.  

https://www.aljazeera.com/gallery/2021/9/15/taliban-warlord-abdul-rashid-dostum-mansion-afghanistan

Quote

 

Taliban fighters have taken over the glitzy Kabul mansion of one of their fiercest enemies: the strongman and fugitive ex-Vice President Abdul Rashid Dostum.

Now in the hands of rank-and-file Taliban fighters, the opulent villa has given the fighters a peek into the lives of Afghanistan’s former rulers, and they say the luxury is the proceeds of years of endemic corruption.

Along an endless corridor with a thick apple-green carpet, a young fighter sleeps slumped on a sofa, his Kalashnikov rifle resting against him, as exotic fish glide above him in one of seven giant tanks. 

The luxury AFP news agency saw on a tour of the mansion would be unimaginable for most Afghans.

Huge glass chandeliers hang in cavernous halls, large soft sofas furnish a maze of lounges and an indoor swimming pool is finished with intricate turquoise tiles.

It even boasts a sauna, a Turkish steam bath and a fully equipped gym.

It is an out-of-this-world experience for the new occupants, who for years sacrificed creature comforts for rebellion, living on their wits in the plains, valleys and mountains of rural Afghanistan.

 

 

[Grey Area]

7 hours ago, pellinore said:

Facetious or not, if you don't want to be part of Europe, **** off to India, Africa, the US or wherever you want to be and let us live in harmony with our own continent. You are not happy with being European, fair enough, but don't destroy things for us who are happy with our continent.

Well said sir, I will remove myself from this great nation of yours forthwith, for speaking such poison… 

If you could only articulate my great crimes against the EU?

[Ajay0]

2 hours ago, Duke Wellington said:

All the military senior brass said yes sir Mr President/Prime Minister, we can beat the Taliban.

I suppose the lure of money was hard to resist. All those parties and beer don't come free, after all. 

War is good news for the military-industrial complex, and many capitalists, share-holders and contractors struck gold in these wars. The Israel and Ukraine wars have also been good business opportunities as well.

https://theprint.in/defence/russia-ukraine-war-a-gold-mine-for-us-british-defence-firms-sales-rocket-stock-prices-soar/2056134/

Quote

 

Such has been the growth in the defence sector that companies are spending billions of dollars on buying back their own shares with record number of orders in pipeline and counting.

The four largest US-based firms, Lockheed Martin, RTX Corporation, Northrop Grumman, and General Dynamics, and the UK’s BAE Systems — which has a US subsidiary that manufactures the M777 ultra lightweight howitzers — have all posted strong financial returns after Russian troops entered Ukraine as part of its “special military operation” on 24 February, 2022.

 

https://english.elpais.com/economy-and-business/2024-08-27/ukraine-and-gaza-wars-boost-the-value-of-major-arms-manufacturers.html

Quote

The market value of the main military equipment manufacturers in the United States and Europe has skyrocketed over the past two and a half years, in the wake of the wars in Ukraine and Gaza. This is confirmed in a study by the financial and strategic consultancy Accuracy, which analyzed the performance of the seven main U.S. companies in the industry and their European counterparts, whose stock market capitalization has increased by 59.7% since 24 February 2022, when the invasion of Ukraine began. 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/feb/21/bae-systems-profit-ukraine-israel-gaza-wars-ftse-100

Quote

 

Increased military spending prompted by Russia’s war on Ukraine and the Israel-Gaza conflict helped the British weapons manufacturer BAE Systems to record profits last year, with further growth expected in the year ahead.

The FTSE 100 company made underlying profits before interest and tax of £2.7bn on record sales of £25.3bn in 2023.

 

 

Edited November 4 by Ajay0

[Duke Wellington]

44 minutes ago, Grey Area said:

Well said sir, I will remove myself from this great nation of yours forthwith, for speaking such poison… 

If you could only articulate my great crimes against the EU?

He isn`t pro-Britain, he has an obsession with giving up our country to the EU.

His most recent grievance is that we replaced EU immigration with that from our past colonies. A true patriot is against mass immigration from all sources as its gone way too far in the UK over the last 70 years. Yet he wants to re-open the flood gate to Eastern Europe.

He claims to be patriotic yet in reality if he got his way we wouldn`t have a country, we would become part of a United States of Europe.

[Grey Area]

2 hours ago, Duke Wellington said:

He isn`t pro-Britain, he has an obsession with giving up our country to the EU.

His most recent grievance is that we replaced EU immigration with that from our past colonies. A true patriot is against mass immigration from all sources as its gone way too far in the UK over the last 70 years. Yet he wants to re-open the flood gate to Eastern Europe.

He claims to be patriotic yet in reality if he got his way we wouldn`t have a country, we would become part of a United States of Europe.

I think you are wrong.  I don’t think it has anything to do with immigration or patriotism.

It’s all about someone very afraid of change and someone very concerned that their comfortable life will be disrupted.  They have spent their entire life taking what they can, and now they may actually have to put some effort in at a time when the world should should be thanking them for their years of exploitation.

If only they had bothered to the walk to the ballot box.

Edited November 4 by Grey Area

[Trelane]

13 hours ago, Duke Wellington said:

All the military senior brass said yes sir Mr President/Prime Minister, we can beat the Taliban.

All the while knowing at the back of their minds that there are almost zero existing examples of an occupying force defeating a resistance in history. Oh, and in the case of Britain, all our previous failed attempts at doing it in.... drum roll please.... Afghanistan.

End state, you are correct Cookie , the Taliban returned to power. 

However, at no point were US forces losing in any operations in Afghanistan. Top commanders were correct that we could beat the Taliban. We did for over 20 years, with increasing efficiency. 

What occurred there ultimately boils down to political interference that produced an abrupt and horrifically planned withdrawal of forces.. It was the growing political discourse in America, post pandemic that led to this historic fumble. One, that has marred trust between the members of the military and our elected leaders. It was a known fact that in order to truly secure victory in that country (just as in Iraq) it would require a sustained, long-term military presence. Much like how US forces remained in Europe for decades post WW2. It was the footing of that bill that the politicians weren't sure how to pay and the American public doesn't have the stomach for prolonged military engagements. The Tik Tok mentality has affected  policy making to it's very core.

[pellinore]

14 hours ago, Grey Area said:

Well said sir, I will remove myself from this great nation of yours forthwith, for speaking such poison… 

If you could only articulate my great crimes against the EU?

Your 'crime', if any (it isn't actually crime to be stupid) is against the UK- if you don't like being European (which the UK is) go and live in on a continent where you will be happier. Don't drag the majority down with you. Take your mighty band of towering intellectuals with you- cookie, itsnotoutthere, destination unknown and LAT, to name but a few on here, and we will also be glad to see the last of Farage, Tice, Oakshott, Lee Anderson, Rees Mogg and Ben Habib. You can all find a Pacific Island and trade with the CPTPP to your hearts content and pretend you have a British Empire again.

[Grey Area]

28 minutes ago, pellinore said:

Your 'crime', if any (it isn't actually crime to be stupid) is against the UK- if you don't like being European (which the UK is) go and live in on a continent where you will be happier. Don't drag the majority down with you. Take your mighty band of towering intellectuals with you- cookie, itsnotoutthere, destination unknown and LAT, to name but a few on here, and we will also be glad to see the last of Farage, Tice, Oakshott, Lee Anderson, Rees Mogg and Ben Habib. You can all find a Pacific Island and trade with the CPTPP to your hearts content and pretend you have a British Empire again.

Yeah, Pellinore, after over 25 years of public and military service my conscience is clear.

You have me very very wrong, but I really couldn’t care.  Live your life of bitterness and existential dread, and do tone down the rhetoric it’s not a good look.

[Duke Wellington]

On 11/4/2024 at 10:04 PM, pellinore said:

Your 'crime', if any (it isn't actually crime to be stupid) is against the UK- if you don't like being European (which the UK is) go and live in on a continent where you will be happier. Don't drag the majority down with you. Take your mighty band of towering intellectuals with you- cookie, itsnotoutthere, destination unknown and LAT, to name but a few on here, and we will also be glad to see the last of Farage, Tice, Oakshott, Lee Anderson, Rees Mogg and Ben Habib. You can all find a Pacific Island and trade with the CPTPP to your hearts content and pretend you have a British Empire again.

You`re not deposing the natives out of their homeland to keep yourself happy.

You can either respect our Brexit choice or move. You wont get the outcome you desire here.

Edited November 7 by Duke Wellington