The Main Concern Now (imo) Is Women's Body Autonomy

[Zebra3]

 

American women denounce men and sex as revenge for Trump election win

"American women have vowed to never date, marry, have sex or have children with men in an attempt to take back control after Donald Trump was elected the 47th President."

Okay, so no sex with men for revenge about the election. I guess the abortion argument is now moot.

 

Love the left.

[psyche101]

2 hours ago, Fraust said:

Can someone explain to me why the right to kill a healthy fetus is something we're fighting over? And if that fetus is a female, isn't aborting it taking away that woman's bodily autonomy? This argument is so stupid.  People literally want to kill  a living thing just because birth is inconvenient and they refuse to just accept abstinence. Why do people want to be allowed to take risks like that and make an innocent bystander pay the price. It's nuts lol there is no logic at all.

Really simple.

You don't get to make choices for other people. No more than other people have the right to make choices about your beliefs on the matter. 

[psyche101]

6 hours ago, OverSword said:

With a Trump victory, Republican dominance of the Senate, and the fate of the House looming, there is a real danger that abortion in most cases could be outlawed at a federal level.  Let's hope that if such a bill is introduced the President will live by his words that this is a subject best left to the states.  I personally think that abortion is sad and a tragedy any time it happens and for whatever reason but if men gave birth I would want it to be my legal right.  Thoughts?

I would also be extremely concerned about the looming tarrifs and RFK being appointed Health officer. 

That's a disaster already. 

[Golden Duck]

4 hours ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

It’s is far more complex than your summation suggests, Faust. 
Firstly, many of the abortions that occur are due to rape. So without a law allowing for abortion due to rape, you’re forcing women (and children) to give birth (potentially lethal, especially (again)if they’re children) for a baby they had no consent in creating or even consent in the actions leading up to the creation of the baby. 

That's a false dichotomy.  Layne Beachley is a child of rape.  Would her biological mother be better off with an abortion?

[+and-then]

5 hours ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

many of the abortions that occur are due to rape.

I think you're mistaken.  The vast, VAST majority of these procedures in the US are about what amounts to retroactive contraception.  Reasonable people can agree on extreme cases, precisely because there are so few (statistically) of them.  I am pro life but I am also a defender of a woman's right to not carry a child she conceived as a result of rape or a pregnancy where her life is at stake (physically).  There have been a disgusting number of young women who publically cheer for the right to have as many as they choose and they make no claim that it's for any reason other than convenience and a desire not to have a child.

I'd love to see a genuine, well-structured study on how many fewer pregnancies occur overall in the states that have very strict rules on abortion versus the numbers of pregnancies prior to those rules.  I believe the data would prove that if these couples understood that their lives were going to suffer major inconveniences like paying to travel out of state to have an abortion, they'd voluntarily begin being more conscientious about prophylaxis/ contraception.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

32 minutes ago, Golden Duck said:

That's a false dichotomy.  Layne Beachley is a child of rape.  Would her biological mother be better off with an abortion?

Is your argument “but sometimes really cool people are born because of rape”? 

[+Razman]

3 hours ago, psyche101 said:

Really simple.

You don't get to make choices for other people. No more than other people have the right to make choices about your beliefs on the matter. 

Repubs like to think they should make the choices for everyone. 

[Golden Duck]

1 hour ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Is your argument “but sometimes really cool people are born because of rape”? 

I think I actually asked a question about the mother.  At any rate it adds another layer of complexity to a issue you said is complex.

The discussion on abortion always gravitates towards the edge case which are legislated as exceptions to justify normalisation.

I question whether rape is an edge case anyway.  Emergency contraception is available to a rape victim and would easily fall within the usual six period that is often part of abortion laws.

People know there attitude the day before the morning after.

Edited November 7, 2024 by Golden Duck

[+and-then]

2 hours ago, Razman said:

Repubs like to think they should make the choices for everyone. 

That's a sweeping generalization and so, it's wrong.  I hail from the Reddest part of the Deep South and I was raised to respect the right of everyone to their own opinions and actions so long as they return that courtesy.  I have never demanded that anyone have or not have an abortion.  That doesn't mean I support the use of that procedure to take the place of a responsible couple using SIMPLE CONTRACEPTION.  To casually create a life, then to extinguish it just as casually rather than being bothered with using contraception, is borderline evil, in my opinion.

[+Razman]

10 minutes ago, and-then said:

That's a sweeping generalization and so, it's wrong.  I hail from the Reddest part of the Deep South and I was raised to respect the right of everyone to their own opinions and actions so long as they return that courtesy.  I have never demanded that anyone have or not have an abortion.  That doesn't mean I support the use of that procedure to take the place of a responsible couple using SIMPLE CONTRACEPTION.  To casually create a life, then to extinguish it just as casually rather than being bothered with using contraception, is borderline evil, in my opinion.

Well , i think a lot of Democrats are pro life as well and i can see in the case of abortions where one glove would not fit all for sure  , and though the Dem lawmakers might go too far sometimes , i think their original intention is to give people a choice in the first place . Even the Dem lawmakers trying to stick up for the LGTBQ thing , they get well out of hand there as well and push it too far , IMO anyway , but the intention is again , that those people have a right to the choice of what they want to be. I always said i felt like the Dems are trying to do what the people want for themselves , The Repubs want to do what they want , and what they think the people should be. This is generally speaking and has many variations though.

Edited November 7, 2024 by Razman

[WVK]

14 hours ago, Zebra3 said:

 

American women denounce men and sex as revenge for Trump election win

"American women have vowed to never date, marry, have sex or have children with men in an attempt to take back control after Donald Trump was elected the 47th President."

Okay, so no sex with men for revenge about the election. I guess the abortion argument is now moot.

 

Love the left.

From what I understand internet porn has replaced women for a large portion of young men,

[Harte]

21 hours ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

It’s is far more complex than your summation suggests, Faust. 
Firstly, many of the abortions that occur are due to rape. So without a law allowing for abortion due to rape, you’re forcing women (and children) to give birth (potentially lethal, especially (again)if they’re children) for a baby they had no consent in creating or even consent in the actions leading up to the creation of the baby. 

How is it you think there would be a federal abortion ban that doesn't account for rape?
What are we doing here, just making up scenarios for chills and thrills?

Harte

[Harte]

20 hours ago, Zebra3 said:

 

American women denounce men and sex as revenge for Trump election win

So, maintaining the status quo.

Harte

[Harte]

20 hours ago, psyche101 said:

Really simple.

You don't get to make choices for other people. No more than other people have the right to make choices about your beliefs on the matter. 

Do you get to make choices about other things, like robbing banks?

Harte

Edited November 7, 2024 by Harte

[Buzz_Light_Year]

6 hours ago, WVK said:

From what I understand internet porn has replaced women for a large portion of young men,

I watched a documentary about an experiment with Rhesus Monkey's and they gave a group of males a picture of a female Rhesus Monkey's butt and the males dutifully carried the picture with them every where they went and never put the picture down. Well then they released a female Rhesus Monkey into the enclosure and the males paid no attention to her and continued to carry the picture around with them. 

It's a primate thing. 

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

1 hour ago, Harte said:

How is it you think there would be a federal abortion ban that doesn't account for rape?
What are we doing here, just making up scenarios for chills and thrills?

Harte

I’m not commenting on policy, I was replying to someone who was insistent that abortion was being used as birth control. 

[+OverSword]

3 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

I’m not commenting on policy, I was replying to someone who was insistent that abortion was being used as birth control. 

It often is.  Medically essential abortions or abortions because of rape I would guess are in the minority.

[WVK]

1 hour ago, Buzz_Light_Year said:

I watched a documentary about an experiment with Rhesus Monkey's and they gave a group of males a picture of a female Rhesus Monkey's butt and the males dutifully carried the picture with them every where they went and never put the picture down. Well then they released a female Rhesus Monkey into the enclosure and the males paid no attention to her and continued to carry the picture around with them. 

It's a primate thing. 

As a male primate not all female primates are created equal. In some cases I’ll take the picture. Could be the same thing for monkeys.

[Claira]

22 hours ago, glorybebe said:

This is where the use of abortion is needing to be ironed out.  There are instances like rape and incest.  There are too many times it is used as birth control. One girl i knew in my younger years had three abortions before she was 20.    While I believe in prochoice, there are some restrictions needed.  A full term abortion is not an abortion IMO. 

Women AND men need to take responsibility that each time they engage in sex there will be a chance of a pregnancy.  Preventative measures would drastically lower the need for abortions.  

Whilst I agree that men and women need to take responsibility, preventative measures are not 100% foolproof. More than half of women requesting abortions have stated that such measures were taken at the time they became pregnant.

I noticed you live in Canada. Your country not only allows abortions, it places no restrictions on them. A woman can have an abortion at any stage of her pregnancy for whatever reason — and that, in my opinion, is the way it should be. Abortion laws are similar in Israel, but there has to be a good reason for them.

[Claira]

On 11/6/2024 at 11:02 AM, OverSword said:

With a Trump victory, Republican dominance of the Senate, and the fate of the House looming, there is a real danger that abortion in most cases could be outlawed at a federal level.  Let's hope that if such a bill is introduced the President will live by his words that this is a subject best left to the states.  I personally think that abortion is sad and a tragedy any time it happens and for whatever reason but if men gave birth I would want it to be my legal right.  Thoughts?

Melania Trump passionately defended abortion rights in her memoir, and whilst this is just a guess on my part, I would not be surprised if she's given her husband her two cents on the issue. I somehow doubt she would remain silent if he or others in his party tried implement restrictions at the federal level. I know I wouldn't if I were in her Louboutins.

[glorybebe]

24 minutes ago, Claira said:

Whilst I agree that men and women need to take responsibility, preventative measures are not 100% foolproof. More than half of women requesting abortions have stated that such measures were taken at the time they became pregnant.

I noticed you live in Canada. Your country not only allows abortions, it places no restrictions on them. A woman can have an abortion at any stage of her pregnancy for whatever reason — and that, in my opinion, is the way it should be. Abortion laws are similar in Israel, but there has to be a good reason for them.

And I disagree on late term abortions unless medically necessary.   Just my opinion, don't expect everyone else to agree with me.

[Claira]

Just now, glorybebe said:

And I disagree on late term abortions unless medically necessary.   Just my opinion, don't expect everyone else to agree with me.

The vast majority of late term abortions ARE medically necessary. Only 1% of abortions are performed at or past 21 weeks. I can't imagine a woman carrying a child for several months only to change her mind for some nonsensical reason at the very last minute. Most abortions (around 90%) are performed at or before 13 weeks. There is no precise medical definition of 'late term' by the way, and the medical profession avoids using the term as it's misleading.

[psyche101]

3 hours ago, Harte said:

Do you get to make choices about other things, like robbing banks?

Harte

Yep 

You might die, you might end up in jail or you might become rich.

People make that choice. 

Then if you get caught you are innocent until proven guilty.

[Golden Duck]

3 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Yep 

You might die, you might end up in jail or you might become rich.

People make that choice. 

Then if you get caught you are innocent until proven guilty.

Well that'd be the same as illegal abortion, or any other illegal act.

You may or may not die.

You may or may not get caught.

If you're caught you're innocent until proven guilty.

[Fraust]

On 11/6/2024 at 2:16 PM, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

It’s is far more complex than your summation suggests, Faust. 
Firstly, many of the abortions that occur are due to rape. So without a law allowing for abortion due to rape, you’re forcing women (and children) to give birth (potentially lethal, especially (again)if they’re children) for a baby they had no consent in creating or even consent in the actions leading up to the creation of the baby. 

I think the vast majority of people, myself included, would readily agree with the exceptions. forcing a woman to have a baby she will never want or that could kill her is pointless anyway.  The foster system is hardly a great choice for any child; And why jeopardize a healthy woman's life if it goes past a certain risk factor? I hope most people that have pro life views are really thinking about the frivolous abortions that are just used as a convenience to avoid labor.

Another thing to consider, however, is how do most doctors feel about it? Would it be right to force men and women that want to help people to have to bow to the whim of some pretentious girl that just want to be rid of her baby? I know I could never perform an abortion that wasn't literally necessary were I in a position to do so. It would make me disgusted.