Trump mulls Ukraine peace plan that puts British troops in 800-mile buffer zone

[pellinore]

Donald Trump may call on European and British troops to enforce an 800-mile buffer zone between the Russian and Ukrainian armies as part of a plan to freeze the war between the two countries.

Details of the plan emerged as Volodymyr Zelensky warned that any attempt to make peace by appeasing Russia would mean “suicide” for Europe.

The plan is one of several being considered by Mr Trump, who said before being elected as US president that he would start peace talks before he enters office in January.

The idea, outlined by three Trump staffers, would see the current front line frozen in place and Ukraine agreeing to shelve its ambition to join Nato for 20 years.

In exchange, the US would pump Ukraine full of weapons to deter Russia from restarting the war.

Trump mulls Ukraine peace plan that puts British troops in 800-mile buffer zone

Edited November 7 by pellinore

[Setton]

17 hours ago, pellinore said:

Donald Trump may call on European and British troops to enforce an 800-mile buffer zone between the Russian and Ukrainian armies as part of a plan to freeze the war between the two countries.

Details of the plan emerged as Volodymyr Zelensky warned that any attempt to make peace by appeasing Russia would mean “suicide” for Europe.

The plan is one of several being considered by Mr Trump, who said before being elected as US president that he would start peace talks before he enters office in January.

The idea, outlined by three Trump staffers, would see the current front line frozen in place and Ukraine agreeing to shelve its ambition to join Nato for 20 years.

In exchange, the US would pump Ukraine full of weapons to deter Russia from restarting the war.

Trump mulls Ukraine peace plan that puts British troops in 800-mile buffer zone

Here's an idea, if the US is going to hand victory to Putin, how about putting your own troops on the future front line.

****ing cowards as usual.

[stevewinn]

2 hours ago, Setton said:

Here's an idea, if the US is going to hand victory to Putin, how about putting your own troops on the future front line.

****ing cowards as usual.

Bit harsh from your good self, You can hardly call the Yanks cowards far from it, the Americans find themselves on the frontline around the world, trouble is the Western world as rode on the US coat tails for far to long, stability in the western world is largely thanks to the US - as a result the peace dividend in Europe. - Now that its danger close the Europeans (read NATO members) who cut back their defence spending to focus on other areas of spending domestically to win elections did so knowing the US would keep spending big on the military and security. - Now the US is being challenged as we all are by the Chinese, by Land, Air, sea, cyber and Space. the US cannot continue to do it alone.

How about we Europeans look after the events in our backyard, let the US deal with China and we'll deal with Russia, though that dynamic of being only European as changed somewhat with North Korea's involvement.  

British troops are already at NATOs frontier with Russia. recent announcement from last month. 

Army's 4 Brigade to be held at high readiness to defend Estonia along Russian border

The UK has committed to strengthening the defence of Estonia's border with Russia, with thousands of troops from the Army's 4 Brigade to be held at high readiness – in addition to the 1,000 already currently deployed to the country.

https://www.forcesnews.com/nato/armys-4-brigade-be-held-high-readiness-defend-estonia-along-russian-border

 

 

[Setton]

46 minutes ago, stevewinn said:

Bit harsh from your good self, You can hardly call the Yanks cowards far from it, the Americans find themselves on the frontline around the world,

First and foremost - you're alive!

Frontlines they have chosen to create. And that we have gone into time and again in their support.

The fact is, America has a track record of demanding support from its allies but leaving them in the lurch when the time comes to return the favour.

WWI, WWII, Falklands, Kurds - just off the top of my head.

 

Quote

trouble is the Western world as rode on the US coat tails for far to long, stability in the western world is largely thanks to the US - as a result the peace dividend in Europe. - Now that its danger close the Europeans (read NATO members) who cut back their defence spending to focus on other areas of spending domestically to win elections did so knowing the US would keep spending big on the military and security. - Now the US is being challenged as we all are by the Chinese, by Land, Air, sea, cyber and Space. the US cannot continue to do it alone.

How about we Europeans look after the events in our backyard, let the US deal with China and we'll deal with Russia, though that dynamic of being only European as changed somewhat with North Korea's involvement. 

I would agree, if the US wasn't the one creating the danger in Europe in the first place.

As I said in another thread, I really hope a Trump presidency is the shove we need to decouple from American foreign policy and actually stand on our own two feet again.

Quote

British troops are already at NATOs frontier with Russia. recent announcement from last month. 

Exactly. Why should more of ours be put in danger due to America's foreign policy failures before theirs are?

[pellinore]

2 hours ago, Setton said:

First and foremost - you're alive!

He got a temporary ban as Destination Unknown. Now he is back as stevewinn, which he was before that persona was banned. 

[Unusual Tournament]

5 hours ago, Setton said:

Why should more of ours be put in danger due to America's foreign policy failures before theirs are?

British forces are already active in Ukraine. 
 

 

[Unusual Tournament]

6 hours ago, stevewinn said:

Bit harsh from your good self, You can hardly call the Yanks cowards far from it, the Americans find themselves on the frontline around the world, trouble is the Western world as rode on the US coat tails for far to long, stability in the western world is largely thanks to the US - as a result the peace dividend in Europe. - Now that its danger close the Europeans (read NATO members) who cut back their defence spending to focus on other areas of spending domestically to win elections did so knowing the US would keep spending big on the military and security. - Now the US is being challenged as we all are by the Chinese, by Land, Air, sea, cyber and Space. the US cannot continue to do it alone.

How about we Europeans look after the events in our backyard, let the US deal with China and we'll deal with Russia, though that dynamic of being only European as changed somewhat with North Korea's involvement.  

British troops are already at NATOs frontier with Russia. recent announcement from last month. 

Army's 4 Brigade to be held at high readiness to defend Estonia along Russian border

The UK has committed to strengthening the defence of Estonia's border with Russia, with thousands of troops from the Army's 4 Brigade to be held at high readiness – in addition to the 1,000 already currently deployed to the country.

https://www.forcesnews.com/nato/armys-4-brigade-be-held-high-readiness-defend-estonia-along-russian-border

 

 

Back from post Brexit. This will be interesting 

[Ajay0]

3 hours ago, Unusual Tournament said:

British forces are already active in Ukraine. 

I was wondering why North Korean troops have been deployed by Russia increasing the prospect of a world war. 

Now that british troops are there in Ukraine, Putin has all the excuse he needs to bring in other troops as well. 

From news reports it appears that there has been many british casualties.  This of course won't be reported in actual statistics so as not to demoralize the rest of british and western soldiers and volunteers who have  enthusiastically entered the war zone without the necessary training and expertise. 

https://www.businessinsider.in/international/news/western-fighters-in-ukraine-are-getting-killed-because-they-assumed-the-war-would-be-easy-says-a-us-veteran-who-fought-there/articleshow/110370184.cms

Quote

"A lot of Westerners that come to Ukraine, they want to be heroes," he said. "I just kept seeing dudes that would go out to Ukraine, and they treat it almost like it's a vacation, and they're not really expecting to die."

 

[jmccr8]

58 minutes ago, Ajay0 said:

I was wondering why North Korean troops have been deployed by Russia increasing the prospect of a world war. 

Now that british troops are there in Ukraine, Putin has all the excuse he needs to bring in other troops as well. 

From news reports it appears that there has been many british casualties.  This of course won't be reported in actual statistics so as not to demoralize the rest of british and western soldiers and volunteers who have  enthusiastically entered the war zone without the necessary training and expertise. 

https://www.businessinsider.in/international/news/western-fighters-in-ukraine-are-getting-killed-because-they-assumed-the-war-would-be-easy-says-a-us-veteran-who-fought-there/articleshow/110370184.cms

 

HI Ajay

All the foreigners fighting in the Ukraine are volunteers so can't really make a comparison with military forces being brought in. None of the guys from N. Korea didn't make a choice and sent as part of a military alliance. 

[acidhead]

15 hours ago, Setton said:

Here's an idea, if the US is going to hand victory to Putin, how about putting your own troops on the future front line.

****ing cowards as usual.

Here's a thought, if you feel this conflict is so important to you put your money where your mouth is and go there and fight it. Quit your job, pack your bags and go show everybody what a tough guy you are. 

[Unusual Tournament]

2 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

HI Ajay

All the foreigners fighting in the Ukraine are volunteers so can't really make a comparison with military forces being brought in. None of the guys from N. Korea didn't make a choice and sent as part of a military alliance. 

Not true. The British, French and Americans have imbedded Special Forces in Ukrainian military units and technicians servicing, targeting and training. The Russians are just doing away with formality 

[Ajay0]

2 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

HI Ajay

All the foreigners fighting in the Ukraine are volunteers so can't really make a comparison with military forces being brought in. None of the guys from N. Korea didn't make a choice and sent as part of a military alliance. 

Well, its hard to figure out the situation with many of the young western volunteers dead so you cannot get their testimony.

To volunteer for a war without the proper factual understanding, training and experience amounts to manslaughter if you ask me.

Even the british special forces has suffered casualties and around 18 have died in a single missile strike as per reports. 

I am sorry to see the deaths of many young men in a conflict which could have been avoidable by proper diplomatic mechanisms for conflict prevention in place.

But perhaps I have been naive as well in overestimating human intelligence and capability for clear perception. 

“War is rich old men protecting their property by sending middle class and lower class young men off to die. It always has been.” ~ George Carlin

 

Edited November 9 by Ajay0

[+and-then]

Welcome back, Stevewinn!

[stevewinn]

12 hours ago, Setton said:

First and foremost - you're alive!

Frontlines they have chosen to create. And that we have gone into time and again in their support.

The fact is, America has a track record of demanding support from its allies but leaving them in the lurch when the time comes to return the favour.

WWI, WWII, Falklands, Kurds - just off the top of my head.

 

I would agree, if the US wasn't the one creating the danger in Europe in the first place.

As I said in another thread, I really hope a Trump presidency is the shove we need to decouple from American foreign policy and actually stand on our own two feet again.

Exactly. Why should more of ours be put in danger due to America's foreign policy failures before theirs are?

in reply to the Bold.

If we remember correctly, the Americans were in the process of withdrawing from Europe, .2012-2014 - they'd removed all their heavy armour as they 'pivoted to the growing threat in the Asia pacific (under president Obama)

The European Union had been using soft power for many years from the early 2000's by entering into agreements with Ukraine, which ultimately in time was a path to accession to the Union. the EU over this time had ploughed Billions of Euros into Ukraine. - previous Ukrainian presidents where getting fat on this money, but there was a problem, being in agreement with the EU on the one hand and on the other relations with Russia. The EU was offering customs Union, and Russia was too. - If you can remember the speech by Barroso telling the Ukrainian President read Ukraine could not be both part of the EU customs area and part of the Russian customs area.

- Russia was in talks with the Ukraine president over security concerns for Russia, then as the deadline approached for signing the EU agreement Russia offered Ukraine more money the democratically elected President chose Russia over the EU. - The EU wasnt about to allow their investment after all these years and billions of euros to just walk off into the Russian sunset (Russian customs union) - the EU having no means of hard power went all in on soft power, backed Ukraine's opposition parties, the democratically elected president fled the country, Ukraine and the EU was then left with a mishmash of pro EU/Western "leaders" the same leaders who'd been on the EU watch list for corruption years earlier, and nothing much has changed since. 

This was nothing to do with US policy, as Victoria Nuland phone conversation leaked stated "**** the EU" But, as always events got away from the EU and the US being the only one capable to deter Russia had to about face and return to Europe thanks to the EU's failed foreign policy. i said at the time on these very boards, this EU foreign policy will bring war to the borders of Europe and here we are.

We find ourselves by default trying to salvage a failed EU foreign policy, and its not the EU on the frontline but NATO.

Im no supporter of the EU and by no means want to dig them out the ****, but equally we cant allow Putin to land grab, and im in agreement with you ( i believe ) that Trumps solution is not in our (Europe's) best interest, because well be back to square one by 2035.

 

 

 

[jmccr8]

30 minutes ago, Ajay0 said:

Well, its hard to figure out the situation with many of the young western volunteers dead so you cannot get their testimony.

To volunteer for a war without the proper factual understanding, training and experience amounts to manslaughter if you ask me.

Even the british special forces has suffered casualties and around 18 have died in a single missile strike as per reports. 

I am sorry to see the deaths of many young men in a conflict which could have been avoidable by proper diplomatic mechanisms for conflict prevention in place.

But perhaps I have been naive as well in overestimating human intelligence and capability for clear perception. 

“War is rich old men protecting their property by sending middle class and lower class young men off to die. It always has been.” ~ George Carlin

 

HI Ajay

I haven't condoned the lost of life but it is what it is. You commented about forces from other NATO members having boots on the ground in the Ukraine. My only point is that yes there are foreigners fighting in the Ukraine that are volunteers so for clarification they are not military representatives of their country at their bid and under orders. 

Yes the N. Koreans are military sent under contract and under orders so no comparison. 

[jmccr8]

1 hour ago, Unusual Tournament said:

Not true. The British, French and Americans have imbedded Special Forces in Ukrainian military units and technicians servicing, targeting and training. The Russians are just doing away with formality 

HI UT

Link please

[psyche101]

6 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

HI UT

Link please

50 British.

 UK prime minister, Rishi Sunak, confirmed that there are a “small number” of British army personnel “supporting the armed forces of Ukraine”. But he added that “we haven’t got any plans for large-scale deployment”.

https://theconversation.com/british-troops-operating-on-the-ground-in-ukraine-what-international-law-says-224896

 

[preacherman76]

23 hours ago, Setton said:

Here's an idea, if the US is going to hand victory to Putin, how about putting your own troops on the future front line.

****ing cowards as usual.

Yeah no thanks. It’s you folks who are crying all of Europe is next. But don’t have the balls to defend yourself? 
 

What victory do you see for Russia here exactly? A long lasting peace deal is a victory for everyone. 

[Only_]

54 minutes ago, preacherman76 said:

What victory do you see for Russia here exactly? A long lasting peace deal is a victory for everyone. 

The Russian victory is that they got to steal lands from Ukaine, most of historical Novorossiya, that were not part of Ukraine is czarist times.

They might also obtain guarantees that Ukraine will not join NATO in the foreseeable future.

It's hard not to see Ukraine ending up on the losing side of a peace deal in this scenario.

Edited November 9 by Only_

[Essan]

3 minutes ago, Only_ said:

The Russian victory is that they got to steal lands from Ukaine, most of Novorussia, that were not part of Ukraine is czarist times.

They might also obtain guarantees that Ukraine will not join NATO in the foreseeable future.

It's not hard no to see Ukraine ending up on the losing side of a peace deal in this scenario.

If  European - ie NATO - troops end up enforcing a buffer zone, Putin will have got exactly what he set out to avoid.   His whole rationale was to push NATO back from his borders.  He;s already created an even bigger border with a NATO country, havin forced Finland into joining the military bloc.   

If Frumps "peace plan" succeeds then Russia will have lost.   As too, of course, will Ukraine.   I really can't see either side agreeing to that!   

Notwithstanding which, I do believe both sides would like to see the war end in a way that means they don't come out of it entirely covered in rotten eggs.   And, of course, from a NATO perspective, we've now seen first hand just what Russia is capable of.   Which isn't much.

[Only_]

4 minutes ago, Essan said:

If  European - ie NATO - troops end up enforcing a buffer zone, Putin will have got exactly what he set out to avoid.   His whole rationale was to push NATO back from his borders.  He;s already created an even bigger border with a NATO country, havin forced Finland into joining the military bloc.  

Somehow I think Belarus will play a role in enforcing the buffer zone, not just British or EU troops.

Edited November 9 by Only_

[Essan]

2 minutes ago, Only_ said:

Somehow I think Belarus will play a role in enforcing the buffer zone, not just NATO.

My personal solution was to have a demilitarized zone on both sides of the border,* overseen by the UN.   Though I appreciate the UN is about as effective as a paper fire blanket.    

* where that border is being another matter!

[+and-then]

A negotiated end to hostilities - and dying Ukrainians and Russians - will likely require Ukraine to give more than Russia has to give up but even if a settlement can be made, at this point the US has weakened its own defense enough that we have to begin ramping up arms production just in case Putin DOES try to grab more of Europe. 

[Unusual Tournament]

5 hours ago, and-then said:

A negotiated end to hostilities - and dying Ukrainians and Russians - will likely require Ukraine to give more than Russia has to give up but even if a settlement can be made, at this point the US has weakened its own defense enough that we have to begin ramping up arms production just in case Putin DOES try to grab more of Europe. 

Ukraine could have had peace and a return of all land in exchange for a non NATO pact with the 2022 Istanbul peace convention. 
 

So what happened?

[Duke Wellington]

17 hours ago, stevewinn said:

in reply to the Bold.

If we remember correctly, the Americans were in the process of withdrawing from Europe, .2012-2014 - they'd removed all their heavy armour as they 'pivoted to the growing threat in the Asia pacific (under president Obama)

The European Union had been using soft power for many years from the early 2000's by entering into agreements with Ukraine, which ultimately in time was a path to accession to the Union. the EU over this time had ploughed Billions of Euros into Ukraine. - previous Ukrainian presidents where getting fat on this money, but there was a problem, being in agreement with the EU on the one hand and on the other relations with Russia. The EU was offering customs Union, and Russia was too. - If you can remember the speech by Barroso telling the Ukrainian President read Ukraine could not be both part of the EU customs area and part of the Russian customs area.

- Russia was in talks with the Ukraine president over security concerns for Russia, then as the deadline approached for signing the EU agreement Russia offered Ukraine more money the democratically elected President chose Russia over the EU. - The EU wasnt about to allow their investment after all these years and billions of euros to just walk off into the Russian sunset (Russian customs union) - the EU having no means of hard power went all in on soft power, backed Ukraine's opposition parties, the democratically elected president fled the country, Ukraine and the EU was then left with a mishmash of pro EU/Western "leaders" the same leaders who'd been on the EU watch list for corruption years earlier, and nothing much has changed since. 

This was nothing to do with US policy, as Victoria Nuland phone conversation leaked stated "**** the EU" But, as always events got away from the EU and the US being the only one capable to deter Russia had to about face and return to Europe thanks to the EU's failed foreign policy. i said at the time on these very boards, this EU foreign policy will bring war to the borders of Europe and here we are.

We find ourselves by default trying to salvage a failed EU foreign policy, and its not the EU on the frontline but NATO.

Im no supporter of the EU and by no means want to dig them out the ****, but equally we cant allow Putin to land grab, and im in agreement with you ( i believe ) that Trumps solution is not in our (Europe's) best interest, because well be back to square one by 2035.

I have an issue with EU expansionism.

I mean, neither the US or UK is in the EU, yet they want us to do their bidding. Look at the UK, we are funding the Ukrainians, providing them with weapons, training theirs other armies along Russia`s border, have our aircraft in those other countries, and men, and tanks. What the hell are we doing? The EU has got nations not part of it paying and providing for its defence.