So, what’s going on in England 2400BC…?

[atalante]

4 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

A review of radiocarbon dates for Bell Beaker across Europe found that some of the earliest were found in Portugal, where the range from Zambujal and Cerro de la Virgen (Spain) ran c. 2900–2500 BC, in contrast to the rather later range for Andalusia ( c. 2500–2200 BC).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_Beaker_culture#:~:text=Iberian Peninsula,-Further information%3A Chalcolithic&text=A review of radiocarbon dates,. 2500–2200 BC).

 

Puzzler,

The Rio Tinto (orange tinted river) region in southern Iberia had been mined for copper since 3000 BCE; it is the likely original source of copper for the people who developed the Bell Beaker package of artifacts.  Rio Tinto flows through the famous Iberian Pyrite Belt.

from:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rio_Tinto_(river)

The river is approximately 100 km (62 mi) long and is located within the Iberian Pyrite Belt.^[1] This area has large amounts of ore and sulphide deposits.

The Rio Tinto area has been the site of approximately 5,000 years of ore mining,^[3] including copper, silver, gold, and other minerals,^[4] extracted as far as 20 kilometres from the river shores.^[2] 

Edited November 23, 2024 by atalante

[The Puzzler]

17 minutes ago, atalante said:

Puzzler,

The Rio Tinto (orange tinted river) region in southern Iberia had been mined for copper since 3000 BCE; it is the likely original source of copper for the people who developed the Bell Beaker package of artifacts.  Rio Tinto flows through the famous Iberian Pyrite Belt.

from:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rio_Tinto_(river)

The river is approximately 100 km (62 mi) long and is located within the Iberian Pyrite Belt.^[1] This area has large amounts of ore and sulphide deposits.

The Rio Tinto area has been the site of approximately 5,000 years of ore mining,^[3] including copper, silver, gold, and other minerals,^[4] extracted as far as 20 kilometres from the river shores.^[2] 

The Rio Tinto mine is still Australia’s best friend, nice info, same but different.

Our Australian story

Rio Tinto’s origins in Australia date back almost 120 years. Our story begins in 1905 with a small, speculative zinc operation in the fabled Broken Hill resources province in the far west of New South Wales. Today, Rio Tinto is in 35 countries, but our roots in Australia run as deep as ever.

Edited November 23, 2024 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

19 minutes ago, atalante said:

Puzzler,

The Rio Tinto (orange tinted river) region in southern Iberia had been mined for copper since 3000 BCE; it is the likely original source of copper for the people who developed the Bell Beaker package of artifacts.  Rio Tinto flows through the famous Iberian Pyrite Belt.

from:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rio_Tinto_(river)

The river is approximately 100 km (62 mi) long and is located within the Iberian Pyrite Belt.^[1] This area has large amounts of ore and sulphide deposits.

The Rio Tinto area has been the site of approximately 5,000 years of ore mining,^[3] including copper, silver, gold, and other minerals,^[4] extracted as far as 20 kilometres from the river shores.^[2] 

I totally think you’re onto the right track here.,Minerals is key.

[The Puzzler]

The famous circle of large sarsen stones were placed between 2600 BC and 2400 BC
Wiki Stonehenge

Like, some kind of something had come over England at this time…

[fred_mc]

Yes, it is quite interesting that around 2600-2700 BC or so, at pretty much the same time as when the great pyramids were built in Egypt, a population exchange took place in northern Europe, also in Scandinavia where I live. The previous hunter/gatherers, and farmer populations (where the farmers had come later to northern Europe, maybe around 4000-4500 BC) were to a big extent replaced by people coming from areas of present-day Ukraine and Russia, speaking proto-Indo-European. Exactly what happened? Was it peaceful or violent? I've read contradictory things there. I've read articles/seen documentaries where it was claimed that the new people came on horses, and were almost entirely men (based on DNA), and that they might have killed basically all men here and taken the women (also based on DNA). Also, I've seen in a documentary that reconstructed proto-Indo-European language would indicate that they were very warlike, based on the many warlike words. On the other hand, I've also seen/read that there are findings that would indicate that it was not so violent, that it may have happened more peacefully, i.e. exactly the opposite. I've also seen documentaries/read information about recent findings that there was a big plague at the time, and that the plague may have been a major factor in what happened. In other words, the information I've found is pretty contradictory. I guess it is not easy to find out what really happened, and that new findings keep changing what has been assumed earlier.

Edited November 24, 2024 by fred_mc

[The Puzzler]

40 minutes ago, fred_mc said:

Yes, it is quite interesting that around 2600-2700 BC or so, at pretty much the same time as when the great pyramids were built in Egypt, a population exchange took place in northern Europe, also in Scandinavia where I live. The previous hunter/gatherers, and farmer populations (where the farmers had come later to northern Europe, maybe around 4000-4500 BC) were to a big extent replaced by people coming from areas of present-day Ukraine and Russia, speaking proto-Indo-European. Exactly what happened? Was it peaceful or violent? I've read contradictory things there. I've read articles/seen documentaries where it was claimed that the new people came on horses, and were almost entirely men (based on DNA), and that they might have killed basically all men here and taken the women (also based on DNA). Also, I've seen in a documentary that reconstructed proto-Indo-European language would indicate that they were very warlike, based on the many warlike words. On the other hand, I've also seen/read that there are findings that would indicate that it was not so violent, that it may have happened more peacefully, i.e. exactly the opposite. I've also seen documentaries/read information about recent findings that there was a big plague at the time, and that the plague may have been a major factor in what happened. In other words, the information I've found is pretty contradictory. I guess it is not easy to find out what really happened, and that new findings keep changing what has been assumed earlier.

Very thought provoking post…

It seems unlikely that at this time, 2400BC many weapons were used…what you’re saying is alluding to later Booze Age battlement.

So yes….maybe it was peaceful terms, that others entered Great Britain, at that time, thru mutual trade or migration etc agreements….

Some sites do seem defensive though.

Could be missing something though.

Edited November 24, 2024 by The Puzzler

[Piney]

6 hours ago, fred_mc said:

Yes, it is quite interesting that around 2600-2700 BC or so, at pretty much the same time as when the great pyramids were built in Egypt, a population exchange took place in northern Europe, also in Scandinavia where I live. The previous hunter/gatherers, and farmer populations (where the farmers had come later to northern Europe, maybe around 4000-4500 BC) were to a big extent replaced by people coming from areas of present-day Ukraine and Russia, speaking proto-Indo-European. Exactly what happened? Was it peaceful or violent? I've read contradictory things there. I've read articles/seen documentaries where it was claimed that the new people came on horses, and were almost entirely men (based on DNA), and that they might have killed basically all men here and taken the women (also based on DNA). Also, I've seen in a documentary that reconstructed proto-Indo-European language would indicate that they were very warlike, based on the many warlike words. On the other hand, I've also seen/read that there are findings that would indicate that it was not so violent, that it may have happened more peacefully, i.e. exactly the opposite. I've also seen documentaries/read information about recent findings that there was a big plague at the time, and that the plague may have been a major factor in what happened. In other words, the information I've found is pretty contradictory. I guess it is not easy to find out what really happened, and that new findings keep changing what has been assumed earlier.

The Scandinavians don't have a farmer admixture. They were straight up maritime Hunter-gatherers who mixed directly with the Battleaxe Culture. Not the Funnelbeaker Culture who were the European Farmers.

The Scandinavian Hunter-gatherers instead wiped them out after learning farming. 

[Thanos5150]

9 hours ago, Piney said:

The Scandinavians don't have a farmer admixture. They were straight up maritime Hunter-gatherers who mixed directly with the Battleaxe Culture. Not the Funnelbeaker Culture who were the European Farmers.

The Scandinavian Hunter-gatherers instead wiped them out after learning farming. 

Well...

Scandinavia’s early farmers slaughtered the hunter-gatherer population 5,900 years ago

A recent study conducted by Lund University in Sweden challenges previously held beliefs regarding the transition from hunter-gatherer to agricultural societies in Scandinavia.

Published in the journal Nature, the research, which involved an international team of scientists, utilized DNA analysis of skeletons and teeth dating back 7,300 years found in present-day Denmark. Contrary to prior assumptions, the study reveals not one but two significant population turnovers occurred in the region, reshaping the genetic landscape and rewriting the history of ancient migrations.

The first major shift occurred approximately 5,900 years ago with the arrival of the first farmers in Scandinavia. Previous narratives portrayed this transition as peaceful, but the study suggests otherwise. Anne Birgitte Nielsen, a lead researcher at Lund University, notes, “This transition has previously been presented as peaceful. However, our study indicates the opposite.” The farmers, originating from Anatolia, drove out the indigenous hunter-gatherer populations through a combination of violence and the introduction of new pathogens from their livestock. Within a few generations, the hunter-gatherer population dwindled significantly, marking a rapid and almost complete population replacement.

Approximately 1,000 years later, around 4,850 years ago, another significant migration event occurred. This time, a pastoralist group known as the Yamnaya people, originating from southern Russia, migrated to Scandinavia, bringing about yet another population turnover. Like the first farmers, the Yamnaya people replaced the existing population through violence and the transmission of new pathogens. These semi-nomadic herders, known for their large physical stature, domesticated livestock, and adept use of horses and carts, mixed with the local populations of Neolithic farmers and Eastern European peoples, further altering the genetic makeup of the region.

Nielsen said: “Once again there was a rapid population turnover, with virtually no descendants from the predecessors.” This pattern of abrupt demographic shifts challenges previous theories of peaceful coexistence and intermingling between groups.

100 ancient genomes show repeated population turnovers in Neolithic Denmark

Edited November 25, 2024 by Thanos5150

[Duke Wellington]

On 11/22/2024 at 2:09 PM, The Puzzler said:

What a strange time, there is all sorts going on…

Pre-Celtic apparently, all these wonderful Neolithic monuments being built…

I just find it extremely fascinating that Great Britain was inhabited as it was, from earliest time, down to connections to Doggerland and all Northern Europe, in the Scottish isles, to Bronze Age trade towns in Wessex, the Cornwall tin, the whole Stonehenge enigma..

But the real question is…what was going on in England around the time the pyramids were built…2600-2200BC and how much impact did it have as a centre of culture or even trade in its time,…?

 

We know the Scots (or as they are called now) had a written language, but finds are extremely rare. On top of that the Romans liked to remove the culture of the conquered peoples, including their writing, and put in its place their own. So unless they wrote about their new subjects, there is a lack of material.

[The Puzzler]

2 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

Well...

Scandinavia’s early farmers slaughtered the hunter-gatherer population 5,900 years ago

A recent study conducted by Lund University in Sweden challenges previously held beliefs regarding the transition from hunter-gatherer to agricultural societies in Scandinavia.

Published in the journal Nature, the research, which involved an international team of scientists, utilized DNA analysis of skeletons and teeth dating back 7,300 years found in present-day Denmark. Contrary to prior assumptions, the study reveals not one but two significant population turnovers occurred in the region, reshaping the genetic landscape and rewriting the history of ancient migrations.

The first major shift occurred approximately 5,900 years ago with the arrival of the first farmers in Scandinavia. Previous narratives portrayed this transition as peaceful, but the study suggests otherwise. Anne Birgitte Nielsen, a lead researcher at Lund University, notes, “This transition has previously been presented as peaceful. However, our study indicates the opposite.” The farmers, originating from Anatolia, drove out the indigenous hunter-gatherer populations through a combination of violence and the introduction of new pathogens from their livestock. Within a few generations, the hunter-gatherer population dwindled significantly, marking a rapid and almost complete population replacement.

Approximately 1,000 years later, around 4,850 years ago, another significant migration event occurred. This time, a pastoralist group known as the Yamnaya people, originating from southern Russia, migrated to Scandinavia, bringing about yet another population turnover. Like the first farmers, the Yamnaya people replaced the existing population through violence and the transmission of new pathogens. These semi-nomadic herders, known for their large physical stature, domesticated livestock, and adept use of horses and carts, mixed with the local populations of Neolithic farmers and Eastern European peoples, further altering the genetic makeup of the region.

Nielsen said: “Once again there was a rapid population turnover, with virtually no descendants from the predecessors.” This pattern of abrupt demographic shifts challenges previous theories of peaceful coexistence and intermingling between groups.

100 ancient genomes show repeated population turnovers in Neolithic Denmark

That’s all very interesting.

”The transition to single graves in round tumuli has been characterized archaeologically by two expansion phases: a primary and rapid occupation of central, western and northern Jutland (west Denmark) starting around 4,800 cal. BP and a later and slower expansion across the Eastern Danish Islands starting around 4,600 cal. BP^53,54. In the eastern parts of the country, SGC traits are less visible, whereas FBC traditions such as burial in megalithic grave chambers persisted⁵⁵. This cultural shift represents another classical archaeological enigma, with explanations favouring immigration versus cultural acculturation competing for generations”

Edited November 25, 2024 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

So…it’s come to my attention that maybe North West Europeans actually Built the Pyramids, crazy I know…

Marlborough Mound is a Neolithic monument in the town of Marlborough in the English county of Wiltshire. Standing 19 metres (60 ft) tall, it is second only to the nearby Silbury Hill in terms of height for such a monument. Modern study situates the construction date around 2400 BC.^[1] It was first listed as a Scheduled Monument in 1951.^[2]

Marlborough Mound is part of a complex of Neolithic monuments in this area, which includes the Avebury Ring, Silbury Hill, and the West Kennet Long Barrow. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marlborough_Mound

[The Puzzler]

8 hours ago, Duke Wellington said:

We know the Scots (or as they are called now) had a written language, but finds are extremely rare. On top of that the Romans liked to remove the culture of the conquered peoples, including their writing, and put in its place their own. So unless they wrote about their new subjects, there is a lack of material.

That’s why I find ancient writers so interesting. But England itself has been marched on many, many times past and since, but each time, gives us a glimpse on understanding the other times…
Lacus Curtius again…

Suetonius, on the other hand, with remarkable firmness, marched straight through the midst of the enemy upon London;16 which, though  p163 not distinguished by the title of colony, was none the less a busy centre, chiefly through its crowd of merchants and stores. Once there, he felt some doubt whether to choose it as a base of operations; but, on considering the fewness of his troops and the sufficiently severe lesson which had been read to the rashness of Petilius, he determined to save the country as a whole at the cost of one town. The laments and tears of the inhabitants, as they implored his protection, found him inflexible: he gave the signal for departure, and embodied in the column those capable of accompanying the march: all who had been detained by the disabilities of sex, by the lassitude of age, or by local attachment, fell into the hands of the enemy. A similar catastrophe was reserved for the municipality of Verulamium;17 as the natives, with their delight in plunder and their distaste for exertion, left the forts and garrison-posts on one side, and made for the point which offered the richest material for the pillager and was unsafe for a defending force. It is established that close upon seventy thousand18 Roman citizens and allies fell in the places mentioned. For the enemy neither took captive nor sold into captivity; there was none of the other commerce of war; he was hasty with slaughter and the gibbet, with arson and the cross,19 as though his day of reckoning must come, but only after he had snatched his revenge in the interval.

[Great Old Man]

On 11/22/2024 at 11:09 PM, The Puzzler said:

What a strange time, there is all sorts going on…

Pre-Celtic apparently, all these wonderful Neolithic monuments being built…

I just find it extremely fascinating that Great Britain was inhabited as it was, from earliest time, down to connections to Doggerland and all Northern Europe, in the Scottish isles, to Bronze Age trade towns in Wessex, the Cornwall tin, the whole Stonehenge enigma..

But the real question is…what was going on in England around the time the pyramids were built…2600-2200BC and how much impact did it have as a centre of culture or even trade in its time,…?

 

 

I heard that some Akkadian people actually moved to England.

Even Joseph of Arimathea did business in the UK.

The physical distance between the UK and the Middle East is not much.

Ancient people could go there by ship.

Edited November 25, 2024 by Great Old Man

[The Puzzler]

36 minutes ago, Great Old Man said:

 

I heard that some Akkadian people actually moved to England.

Even Joseph of Arimathea did business in the UK.

The physical distance between the UK and the Middle East is not much.

Ancient people could go there by ship.

Yes, it seems there was much business and movement between everywhere.

[Abramelin]

4 hours ago, Great Old Man said:

 

I heard that some Akkadian people actually moved to England.

Even Joseph of Arimathea did business in the UK.

The physical distance between the UK and the Middle East is not much.

Ancient people could go there by ship.

No proof your story actually happened, but it is now generally accepted the Phoenicians sailed to Cornwall to buy/mine tin.

It is also known that members of that other Canaanite tribe, the Hebrews and the later Jews often travelled along with these Phoenicians and the later Punics (from Carthage).

But all that happened long after 2400 BCE.

Edited to add:

The one promoting the idea that Akkadians (and their language) showed up everywhere around the Mediterrenean and beyond is David Olmsted.

Forget about him.

 

Edited November 25, 2024 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

10 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

No proof your story actually happened, but it is now generally accepted the Phoenicians sailed to Cornwall to buy/mine tin.

It is also known that members of that other Canaanite tribe, the Hebrews and the later Jews often travelled along with these Phoenicians and the later Punics (from Carthage).

But all that happened long after 2400 BCE.

Edited to add:

The one promoting the idea that Akkadians (and their language) showed up everywhere around the Mediterrenean and beyond is David Olmsted.

Forget about him.

 

https://independent.academia.edu/DavidOlmsted

[The Puzzler]

My Mum died just before Christmas last year,sorry if I seem dour or sour…x

[The Puzzler]

On 11/26/2024 at 3:07 AM, Abramelin said:

https://independent.academia.edu/DavidOlmsted

Mate…

Edited November 28, 2024 by The Puzzler

[Piney]

On 11/25/2024 at 11:07 AM, Abramelin said:

https://independent.academia.edu/DavidOlmsted

Druid-Akkadian??? 🤣

[cormac mac airt]

On 12/7/2024 at 12:14 PM, Piney said:

Druid-Akkadian??? 🤣

On a different note I thought you might be interested in this: 

https://www.sci.news/othersciences/anthropology/homo-juluensis-13487.html#:~:text=Homo juluensis lived approximately 300%2C000,Image credit: Chuang Zhao.

cormac

[Piney]

8 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

On a different note I thought you might be interested in this: 

https://www.sci.news/othersciences/anthropology/homo-juluensis-13487.html#:~:text=Homo juluensis lived approximately 300%2C000,Image credit: Chuang Zhao.

cormac

I think it was a regional version of a Denisovian. 

[cormac mac airt]

4 minutes ago, Piney said:

I think it was a regional version of a Denisovian. 

Denisovan is a site designation, it’s not genus or species nomenclature. 
 

cormac

[Thanos5150]

59 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Denisovan is a site designation, it’s not genus or species nomenclature. 

But obviously it is the informal name of this hominin/culture, commonly given from the name of the site (eg Clovis), until more discoveries are made to warrant giving it its own formal taxonomic designation so I am not sure what your point is. 

There is not enough information to warrant one being a "regional variant" of the other if at all, but the discoverers and others are suggesting Denisovan is Homo longi.  

[cormac mac airt]

4 minutes ago, Thanos5150 said:

But obviously it is the informal name of this hominin/culture, commonly given from the name of the site (eg Clovis), until more discoveries are made to warrant giving it its own formal taxonomic designation so I am not sure what your point is. 

There is not enough information to warrant one being a "regional variant" of the other if at all, but the discoverers and others are suggesting Denisovan is Homo longi.  

Not so much: 

Quote

More recently, another diminutive species, Homo luzonensis, from the island of Luzon in the Philippines was added as a new hominin taxon15. In China, Homo longi was presented following an analysis of the Harbin fossil5. Fossils like Dali and Jinniushan may be tentatively included in H. longi as well, though we await further comparative analyses. Most recently, after a detailed study of the Xujiayao and Xuchang fossils, we have added
Homo juluensis to these discussions16, see also ref. 13. Importantly, we
have assigned the enigmatic Denisova, along with the Xiahe and Penghu fossils, to H. juluensis based on comparative study of the present dentognathic remains. In all likelihood, given the recent observation
that the Tam Ngu Hao 2 (Laos) tooth shares traits with Denisova17, this
fossil should additionally be included in H. juluensis.

Source:  Making sense of eastern Asian Late Quaternary hominin variability (Published November 2, 2024)

cormac

[Abramelin]

1 hour ago, cormac mac airt said:

Denisovan is a site designation, it’s not genus or species nomenclature. 
 

cormac

What's 'juliensis' based on?