So, what’s going on in England 2400BC…?

[Piney]

1 minute ago, Abramelin said:

They've tried it with 'Nostratic', that has never been a great succes.

Because "Altaic" doesn't exist and whoever came up with it didn't speak Japanese, Korean and Turkic. Just Turkic

[Abramelin]

Just now, Piney said:

Because "Altaic" doesn't exist and whoever came up with it didn't speak Japanese, Korean and Turkic. Just Turkic

I wonder what AI would come up with if asked about relationships between languages and the original language, if there ever was one.

I have a book written by Arnold Wadler, "Turm von Babel - Urgemeinschaft der Sprachen". People have tried for ages to come up with the one and only original language.

[Abramelin]

9 minutes ago, Piney said:

That started with the Theosophists.....I think. 

 

Yeah, they loved 'root races', lol.

[Piney]

3 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

Yeah, they loved 'root races', lol.

And Cayce and the American 2nd Great Awaking jumped right on it. 

6 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

I wonder what AI would come up with if asked about relationships between languages and the original language, if there ever was one.

It just does a mass surface comparison and once said Japanese was Celtic.....like Frank Colin. 😆

6 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

I have a book written by Arnold Wadler, "Turm von Babel - Urgemeinschaft der Sprachen". People have tried for ages to come up with the one and only original language.

It's not happening. 

[Abramelin]

1 minute ago, Piney said:

It just does a mass surface comparison and once said Japanese was Celtic.....like Frank Colin. 😆

I remember that once several Japanese historians/linguists/archaeologists/whatever loved to visit the Altai (?) because they once assumed that is where their roots lay.

 

4 minutes ago, Piney said:

It's not happening. 

No, not unless we invent a time-machine.

[Abramelin]

22 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

I have a book written by Arnold Wadler, "Turm von Babel - Urgemeinschaft der Sprachen". People have tried for ages to come up with the one and only original language.

Wadler quoted Tacitus by saying the "Skandinavien wäre der Mutterschoß der Volker" (page 181). Or, "Skandinavia was the womb of peoples"

I never found that quote in Tacitus' writings, but that's where the misery started, I guess.

[Abramelin]

To get back on topic, this is a map from the wikipage about PIE I linked to earlier:

[seasmith]

8 hours ago, seasmith said:

A more geographically inclusive term used to be 'Indo-Aryan',  
before the tenure racket became so PC wokey.

 

 

Abe wrote:

"The term "Aryan" got a bad name by the Nazis, but also long before them.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan  "

 

∫∫∫

 

" ... is a term originating from the ethno-cultural self-designation of the Indo-Iranians, and later Iranians and Indo-Aryans.It stood in contrast to nearby outsiders, whom they designated as non-Aryan (*an-āryā).^[4] In ancient India, the term was used by the Indo-Aryan peoples of the Vedic period, both as an endonym and in reference to a region called Aryavarta ..."

-wiki

 

Ω≈ç

 

Once again, wiki inadvertently makes the point. What  was above  presented as a merely Geographic reference, becomes on  wiki,  all about "race" and "ethnicity",
not language origins and progressions.
My fault for misunderstanding.

 

Of the 150 or so references cited at the end of the Wiki article, 
not one predates 1970.

And the wikiwiki revisionism still goes on:

Last edited 4 days ago by PEPSI697

 

 

disambiguation-

Not a criticism Abramelin, your Doggerland research was truly a gold mine.

Edited January 4 by seasmith

[The Puzzler]

14 hours ago, Abramelin said:

I remember both you and Ott/Otharus saying that the whole PIE thing is bull, and at the same time forgetting that it is with this reconstructed language they were able to translate the Hittite language.

Hmmm

[The Puzzler]

10 hours ago, Abramelin said:

It wasn't me who thought PIE was bull. It's what Puzz and Otharus (once) thought.

Another quote from Wiki:

"No direct evidence of PIE exists; scholars have reconstructed PIE from its present-day descendants using the comparative method.[6]"

It's nothing but a reconstructed language that has proven its worth.

 

The term "Aryan" got a bad name by the Nazis, but also long before them.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan

Ott knew his **** so I’m happy to be in his boat.

[The Puzzler]

14 hours ago, Abramelin said:

That article is almost 6 years old. With the new survey they can maybe pinpoint from where exactly in Europe they all came from.

Yes true. That would be good but we already know they came from Anatolia, via the Mediterranean, up through Spain and France and entered Great Britain through Wales approx 4000BC….which is interesting, considering most wonder why the bluestones came from Wales….if we imagine this western entrance it is obvious they knew that area much better than southern England for example….so bought the bluestones over from there….a daunting task I imagine but makes sense…by the time the last stages of Stonehenge were built, the Bell Beakers had entered, that is the 2400BC in the title, who knew nothing of the megastructures…

—————-

Herodotus clearly tells us in his time, prior to when these Austrian (Celts) moved to England the the whole western seaboard were Celtic.

So at 500BC we need to acknowledge, a PRE Continental (Austrian based) Celt was roaming the western seaboard already….these are them ‘Celts’ Bryan Sykes speaks of….dark eyes and hair. 
People who looked like Welsh Catherine Zeta Jones for example….not Thor, later red haired, fair Celtic people (Northern Italian/Austrian type)  are a different strain than original dark complexioned ones.

And they would have spoken an IE language bought from Anatolia.

Edited January 4 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

25 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

No direct evidence of PIE exists;

No direct evidence of God exists, no direct evidence of Atlantis exists, no direct evidence of aliens exists.

So…..it depends I guess on what your stance is in believing in something that doesn’t exist.

Im guilty of it but at the end of the day, my speculations are based on what does exist.

[The Puzzler]

Pelasgian and Etruscan are probable languages imo that retain the original concept words from Anatolia.

Atlas, Athena, Pelasgian names….clearly denote parentage…ata in Etruscan.

I also believe this can transfer to IE, even though they declare Etruscan as non IE….I think it envelopes traces of this original Anatolia IE….mater, fat(h)er…in IE. 

Where did Latin come from? I know from the Latins…how did the Latin people, of whom Aeneus lobs with, (where was Troy? Oh, in Anatolia)…have this language? Where did they bring it from? Myth brings Brutus, of this union into Britain….doesn’t anyone else see the ambiguity….This is the language that needs scrutinising the most, to decide if PIE can be validated in 2025.

Edited January 4 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

Beaker culture was taken up by a group of people living in Central Europe whose ancestors had previously migrated from the Eurasian Steppe. This group continued to migrate west and finally arrived in Britain around 4,400 years ago.

https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/news/2018/february/the-beaker-people-a-new-population-for-ancient-britain.html#:~:text=Beaker culture was taken up,Britain around 4%2C400 years ago.

The replacement of the darker people with the lighter skinned Bell Beakers from the steppes.

 

The 2400BC I constantly refer to is this moment. What changes occurred in the Neolithic people, who themselves had overtaken the HG population thousands of years earlier…? What became of their knowledge of the megaliths…? 

Is BB language also IE? Of course it is, a steppe IE, different to Anatolian IE…

Prob same in Greece, when the Pelasgian language was overtaken by Hellenic. A steppe based IE not Neolithic Anatolian IE.

Same point in Latin….the original Etruscans and Sabines prob spoke Anatolian IE….much like Briton would have…but the steppe IE intruded, same core context words but quite different in um, what…syntax maybe…

Latin is like that. So the Pelasgian and Etruscan Anatolian IE became obsolete.

Same as in Britain, the BB IE…a newer IE Continental style, from the steppes, took over Britain, in language and genes…

Because if you read the articles, the gene pool of the HG literally disappeared with the arrival of the Neolithic and the same thing, the gene pool of the Neolithic people (that built Stonehenge) disappeared with the BB arrival.

 

 

Edited January 4 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

.

Edited January 4 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

9 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Wadler quoted Tacitus by saying the "Skandinavien wäre der Mutterschoß der Volker" (page 181). Or, "Skandinavia was the womb of peoples"

I never found that quote in Tacitus' writings, but that's where the misery started, I guess.

I’d have to read the section again on them but I don’t recall it…and I refer to Tacitus a lot….like here for example…

On Britain…

”

Be this as it may, what humans inhabited Britannia originally, whether indigenous or later-comers, is a question which has never received attention, as one would expect for a barbarian people. The physical features of the people present many varieties, from which inferences can be drawn. The red hair and the large limbs of the inhabitants of Caledonia proclaim their Germanic origin. The swarthy faces of the Silurians, the generally curly quality of their hair, and the position of Spain opposite their shores attest the passage of Iberians in the old days and the occupation by these districts. Those peoples, again, who adjoin Gaul are also like Gauls [Roman equivalent for the Celts], whether because the influence of heredity persists or because when two lands converge till they face each other the climatic condition stamps a certain physical form on the human body.

[Characteristics of the Britons and their land]

But, taking a broad view of the case, we can readily believe that the Gauls took possession of the adjacent island. You will find celebrations of sacred rites and belief in superstitions of the Gauls there. The language is not very different. There is the same recklessness in courting danger and, when it comes, the same anxiety to escape it. But the Britons display greater courage, not having been softened by long years of peace. The Gauls also, according to history, once shone in war. Afterwards inactivity made its appearance hand in hand with peace, and courage and liberty have been lost together. This has happened to any of the Britons who were conquered long ago.”

https://www.philipharland.com/Blog/2022/07/britons-tacitus-late-first-century-ce/

Edited January 4 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

Population movements

11,700 years ago (slide one)

About 11,700 years ago, glaciers permanently receded from Britain as the last Ice Age ended, but sea levels were lower. Hunter-gatherers migrated into Britain via a land bridge and established a small population. These are the populations to which Cheddar Man (alive around 10,000 years ago) belonged.

DNA analysis suggests their general appearance was likely to be:
Eyes: blue/blue-green/hazel
Skin: intermediate dark brown/black
Hair: dark

6,000 years ago (slide two)

About 6,000 years ago, farmers originating from the Mediterranean moved into Britain. Their ancestors had come from modern-day Turkey. This farming population was probably much larger than that of the hunter-gatherers, and brought new technologies that marked the beginning of Neolithic (or New Stone Age) Britain.

Studies suggest that the earlier hunter-gatherers contributed little ancestry to the population that made up Neolithic Britain.

DNA analyses suggest their appearance was variable but typically likely to be:
Eyes: brown
Skin: intermediate-dark brown
Hair: dark

4,400 years ago (slide three)

About 4,400 years ago, a second population of farmers entered Britain, bringing with them distinctive Beaker pottery. This population came over from continental Europe. Their ancestors had mostly come from the Eurasian Steppe. They brought new technologies that marked the end of the Neolithic and the beginning of the Early Bronze Age.

Studies suggest that within a few hundred years of this migration, only 10% of the British population's gene pool came from the earlier Neolithic famers.

DNA analysis suggests their general appearance was variable but typically likely to be:
Eyes: lighter
Skin: lighter-intermediate
Hair: lighter

[The Puzzler]

13 hours ago, Abramelin said:

I wonder what AI would come up with if asked about relationships between languages and the original language, if there ever was one.

I have a book written by Arnold Wadler, "Turm von Babel - Urgemeinschaft der Sprachen". People have tried for ages to come up with the one and only original language.

Maybe Mario can ask it….I would but I can’t talk to AI anymore, it’s too polite and nice to me, my man gets jealous lol

Which is ironic or maybe he knows how they capture you…beautiful Rachael, the AI of the future….he named our daughter Rachel, from Rachael, in Blade Runner….

 

 

[The Puzzler]

Barry Cunliffe is actually the one who proposes early Celts in Britain via his researches, no so much genetic like Sykes but more on the movements of the people, as I like to follow.

I borrowed this book from the library once. I stand by his revelations, it really made an impact on my thought.  That a Celtic type, who were descendants of the Neolithic were in Britain from at least 4000BC.

 

Edited January 4 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

15 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Yeah, they loved 'root races

I recently watched My Fair Lady, it’s about  speaking correctly….we all know “the rain  in Spain stays mainly in the plain” .from that movie.

Eliza Doolittle is an experiment by a language specialist who has a chap stay with him, who has recently been in India….so it’s based on languages and rof when they realised Sanskrit was like English…

It’s a funny movie….”How do you do…?”

 

Edited January 4 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

The general gist at 2400BC in Britain….

But in Britain, individuals connected to Beaker pots seem to be a distinct, genetically related group that almost wholly replaced the island's earlier inhabitants. If true, this suggests that Britain's Neolithic farmers (who left behind massive rock relics, including Stonehenge) were elbowed out by Beaker invaders.17 May 2017

https://www.scientificamerican.com › ...

 

Bronze-Age "Beaker Culture" Invaded Britain, Ancient-Genome Study Finds

 

 

 

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About featured snippets

 

 

Natural History Museum

https://www.nhm.ac.uk › february

The Beaker people: a new population for ancient Britain

[The Puzzler]

The interesting thing is the Bell Beaker folk seem to have come from where the Neolithics came into Britain from, Portugal and Spain with maritime adventures, into Britain….just like the Neolithics before them….using this route as an entrance point…

“The initial moves from the Tagus estuary were maritime. A southern move led to the Mediterranean where 'enclaves' were established in south-western Spain and southern France around the Golfe du Lionand into the Po Valley in Italy, probably via ancient western Alpine trade routes used to distribute jadeiteaxes. A northern move incorporated the southern coast of Armorica. The enclave established in southern Brittany was linked closely to the riverine and landward route, via the Loire, and across the Gâtinais Valley to the Seine Valley, and thence to the lower Rhine. This was a long-established route reflected in early stone axe distributions, and via this network, Maritime Bell Beakers first reached the Lower Rhine in c. 2600 BC”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_Beaker_culture

Lunulas and associated “Celtic” objects enter Britain.

[fred_mc]

23 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

Population movements

11,700 years ago (slide one)

About 11,700 years ago, glaciers permanently receded from Britain as the last Ice Age ended, but sea levels were lower. Hunter-gatherers migrated into Britain via a land bridge and established a small population. These are the populations to which Cheddar Man (alive around 10,000 years ago) belonged.

DNA analysis suggests their general appearance was likely to be:
Eyes: blue/blue-green/hazel
Skin: intermediate dark brown/black
Hair: dark

6,000 years ago (slide two)

About 6,000 years ago, farmers originating from the Mediterranean moved into Britain. Their ancestors had come from modern-day Turkey. This farming population was probably much larger than that of the hunter-gatherers, and brought new technologies that marked the beginning of Neolithic (or New Stone Age) Britain.

Studies suggest that the earlier hunter-gatherers contributed little ancestry to the population that made up Neolithic Britain.

DNA analyses suggest their appearance was variable but typically likely to be:
Eyes: brown
Skin: intermediate-dark brown
Hair: dark

4,400 years ago (slide three)

About 4,400 years ago, a second population of farmers entered Britain, bringing with them distinctive Beaker pottery. This population came over from continental Europe. Their ancestors had mostly come from the Eurasian Steppe. They brought new technologies that marked the end of the Neolithic and the beginning of the Early Bronze Age.

Studies suggest that within a few hundred years of this migration, only 10% of the British population's gene pool came from the earlier Neolithic famers.

DNA analysis suggests their general appearance was variable but typically likely to be:
Eyes: lighter
Skin: lighter-intermediate
Hair: lighter

There was a documentary series about the history of Sweden on Swedish TV lately. The peoples coming here were largely the same as in your timeline for Britain. However, there was one more hunter-gatherer people coming here between the first dark-skinned blue-eyed people, and the Anatolian farmers, so there was one "east group" and one "west group" of hunter-gatherers. The "new" hunter-gatherer group had lighter skin than the first one.

[The Puzzler]

On 1/5/2025 at 5:33 PM, fred_mc said:

There was a documentary series about the history of Sweden on Swedish TV lately. The peoples coming here were largely the same as in your timeline for Britain. However, there was one more hunter-gatherer people coming here between the first dark-skinned blue-eyed people, and the Anatolian farmers, so there was one "east group" and one "west group" of hunter-gatherers. The "new" hunter-gatherer group had lighter skin than the first one.

Oh right, I could believe that, and makes sense.

I do think some existent Scandinavian Doggerland type people, retreated to Great Britain…..between the HG indigenous and the incoming Anatolian via Mediterranean/Spain/France Neolithic….

——————

These, in fact, would be where the overlying early Norse  beliefs (like Celtic motifs) seen entrenched in Bronze Age Britain, culminating in the Nordic Bronze Age overlaps into Britain giving rise to a Celtic type CULTURAL element in Britain….the people not knowing Stonehenge but knowing what the incoming BB didn’t. Leaving very little trace of DNA just like the indigenous HG and Neolithic….to the BB. Actually your point has solved a few riddles I had.

————-

As for Sweden it is my thought the Uralic/Siberian  HG groups knew the Baltic lands and travelled it since pre dawn…genetics shows some of this possibly occurred but not transparently so…and we only know about it since recorded history.

 

 

Edited January 6 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

.

Large megalithic structures such Stonehenge were built in Britain by Neolithic (or New Stone Age) people, who were replaced by the Bronze Age Beaker population © .aditya. licensed under CC BY-NC-SA 2.0 via flickr
 

Read more

Population change in Bronze Age Britain

Britain saw significant population changes, however. Beaker culture was taken up by a group of people living in Central Europe whose ancestors had previously migrated from the Eurasian Steppe. This group continued to migrate west and finally arrived in Britain around 4,400 years ago. (See How does Cheddar Man fit into this? box and Population movements into Britain maps at the bottom of this page.)

The DNA data suggests that over a span of several hundred years, the migrations of people from continental Europe led to an almost complete replacement of Britain's earlier inhabitants, the Neolithic communities who were responsible for huge megalithic monuments such as Stonehenge.

https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/news/2018/february/the-beaker-people-a-new-population-for-ancient-britain.html

————-

So, here we have a Neolithic society with their Cyclopean structures and inevitable Gods and spiritual practices revolving around their knowledge of the whole….

Then these Bell Beakers arrive…..and the memory of the rocks significance disappeared.

Edited January 6 by The Puzzler