Pope Francis inaugurates nativity scene in Vatican showing baby Jesus on keffiyeh

[Claira]

Pope Francis on Saturday attended the inauguration of a seasonal nativity scene, presented by Palestinian officials, that featured a baby Jesus lying on a keffiyeh, the traditional scarf used by Palestinians as a national symbol.

Speaking at the event, a wheelchair-bound Francis called on believers to “remember the brothers and sisters, who, right there [in Bethlehem] and in other parts of the world, are suffering from the tragedy of war,” adding, “enough war, enough violence!” and lamenting the existence of the commercial arms trade.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/pope-francis-inaugurates-nativity-scene-in-vatican-showing-baby-jesus-on-keffiyeh/

[Alchopwn]

Makes for an interesting nappy.

Edited December 9, 2024 by Alchopwn

[+and-then]

He should be called the modern Pontifex maximus.  Even JPII wasn't as politically guided.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

As a random aside, how long has the kefir existed as a piece of headwear? It’s not religious but cultural, after all. 
 

 

ETA: there are examples from at least the Ottoman Empire, so it doesn’t dissuade from the idea that it’s been part of “the people living in the area’s” culture for ages. It’s rather tactless I agree but it could very well something similar wore at the turn of the millennium….

Edited December 9, 2024 by Sir Wearer of Hats

[Claira]

5 hours ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

As a random aside, how long has the kefir existed as a piece of headwear? It’s not religious but cultural, after all. 

ETA: there are examples from at least the Ottoman Empire, so it doesn’t dissuade from the idea that it’s been part of “the people living in the area’s” culture for ages. It’s rather tactless I agree but it could very well something similar wore at the turn of the millennium….

It's not just tactless, it is extremely offensive.

The black and white keffiyeh has become a symbol of the Palestinian cause. Displaying Jesus on it is suggestive of the trope that Jesus was a Palestinian. He wasn't. Labeling him as such is historically inaccurate and a deliberate attempt to formulate a narrative that's negative of Jews. It can also be viewed as a rephrasing of the antisemitic trope of deicide — that Jews are collectively responsible for the killing of Jesus.

Edited December 9, 2024 by Claira
Minor edit.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

52 minutes ago, Claira said:

It's not just tactless, it is extremely offensive.

The black and white keffiyeh has become a symbol of the Palestinian cause. Displaying Jesus on it is suggestive of the trope that Jesus was a Palestinian. He wasn't. Labeling him as such is historically inaccurate and a deliberate attempt to formulate a narrative that's negative of Jews. It can also be viewed as a rephrasing of the antisemitic trope of deicide — that Jews are collectively responsible for the killing of Jesus.

The Catholic Church is unambiguous in its position that Jesus was a Jew.

[Claira]

32 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

The Catholic Church is unambiguous in its position that Jesus was a Jew.

There are also Catholics who believe Jesus was a Catholic Christian by faith. They're delusional.

Jesus was born a Jew. He lived and died a Jew. Period.

[Setton]

3 hours ago, Claira said:

It's not just tactless, it is extremely offensive.

The black and white keffiyeh has become a symbol of the Palestinian cause. Displaying Jesus on it is suggestive of the trope that Jesus was a Palestinian. He wasn't. Labeling him as such is historically inaccurate and a deliberate attempt to formulate a narrative that's negative of Jews. It can also be viewed as a rephrasing of the antisemitic trope of deicide — that Jews are collectively responsible for the killing of Jesus.

Strange that you'd take that from a piece of cloth that in no way references or relates to Jews or Judaism.

Remind me, what was the name of the province covering Bethlehem at the time Jesus would have been born?

[Claira]

11 minutes ago, Setton said:

Strange that you'd take that from a piece of cloth that in no way references or relates to Jews or Judaism.

Interesting is it not that a piece of cloth that in no way references or relates to Jews or Judaism is wrapped around a Jew.

But it's not just any cloth, is it.

11 minutes ago, Setton said:

Remind me, what was the name of the province covering Bethlehem at the time Jesus would have been born?

Judea.

[Setton]

3 hours ago, Claira said:

Interesting is it not that a piece of cloth that in no way references or relates to Jews or Judaism is wrapped around a Jew.

Perhaps because some people have an identity beyond their religion?

Like, for example, the fact that Bethlehem is in Palestine. Is it really odd to use a symbol of Palestinian identity for someone born in Palestine?

Quote

But it's not just any cloth, is it.

No, it's come to represent Palestinian identity. Nothing more or less. 

I'm not sure why that's so offensive to anyone. Unless that person is ideologically opposed to Palestinians' right to self determination.

Edited December 9, 2024 by Setton

[stevewinn]

Why are Humans the only species in the History of earth 4.5Billion years to believe in many Gods, I'm just thankful we just happen to be a live at the correct time to worship the correct God. if we'd have been born 4,000+ years earlier we'd have been worshipping the wrong god. phew, and were the intelligent ones.

 

 

[Claira]

1 hour ago, Setton said:

Perhaps because some people have an identity beyond their religion?

Like, for example, the fact that Bethlehem is in Palestine. Is it really odd to use a symbol of Palestinian identity for someone born in Palestine?

Quite odd. Jesus was not born in Palestine, he was born in Judea. The fact that Bethlehem is in the West Bank (an area ceded by Israel to the PA) is a matter of modern geopolitics, not identity.

1 hour ago, Setton said:

No, it's come to represent Palestinian identity. Nothing more or less. 

I'm not sure why that's so offensive to anyone. Unless that person is ideologically opposed to Palestinians' right to self determination.

The keffiyeh in and of itself is not offensive. What is offensive, however, is the attempt to re-brand Jesus as part of a deliberate effort to deny us our history, indigeneity, and right to sovereignty.

Edited December 9, 2024 by Claira
Minor edit.

[+OverSword]

6 hours ago, Claira said:

There are also Catholics who believe Jesus was a Catholic Christian by faith. They're delusional.

Jesus was born a Jew. He lived and died a Jew. Period.

Jesus was a Rabbi. Sounds a bit Jewish to me 

[+OverSword]

This laying Jesus on that cloth by the pope is probably a political statement because at this moment in history the keffiyeh is being worn all over the west by protesters in support of hamas and palestinians.

I think we should all keep in mind that according to our beliefs Jesus loves Palestine and Israel and their respective people both.

[Setton]

18 minutes ago, Claira said:

Quite odd. Jesus was not born in Palestine, he was born in Judea. The fact that Bethlehem is in the West Bank (an area ceded by Israel to the PA) is a matter of modern geopolitics, not identity.

The keffiyeh in and of itself is not offensive. What is offensive, however, is the attempt to re-brand Jesus as part of a deliberate effort to deny us our history, indigeneity, and right to sovereignty.

Well Jesus certainly wasn't Israeli. He was about 1948 years early for that.

Also pretty against killing innocents...

[Setton]

43 minutes ago, stevewinn said:

Why are Humans the only species in the History of earth 4.5Billion years to believe in many Gods, I'm just thankful we just happen to be a live at the correct time to worship the correct God. if we'd have been born 4,000+ years earlier we'd have been worshipping the wrong god. phew, and were the intelligent ones.

And just imagine if we'd been born on the wrong continent! We'd never have had a chance.

[+and-then]

1 hour ago, Setton said:

Is it really odd to use a symbol of Palestinian identity for someone born in Palestine?

It wouldn't be an issue if He had been born in "Palestine".  That region was re-named Syria Palestina several decades after His time on earth.  The use of that symbol is plainly a political statement and the head of the RC church understands this.  It's far from being his only questionable decision while in that office.

[HollyDolly]

Well he's an idiot and I say this as a Catholic. To me as a chistian, it only makes sense in regards to Palestinians who are christians. Just leave politics out of it.

[Setton]

11 minutes ago, and-then said:

It wouldn't be an issue if He had been born in "Palestine".  That region was re-named Syria Palestina several decades after His time on earth.  The use of that symbol is plainly a political statement and the head of the RC church understands this.  It's far from being his only questionable decision while in that office.

I'm curious, in your reality, where is Bethlehem located?

[+OverSword]

5 minutes ago, Setton said:

I'm curious, in your reality, where is Bethlehem located?

West bank.  But the question is where was it located when Jesus was born?  At that time it was most certainly Judea.  Just ask the Romans, they kept records.

[Claira]

13 minutes ago, and-then said:

It wouldn't be an issue if He had been born in "Palestine".  That region was re-named Syria Palestina several decades after His time on earth.  The use of that symbol is plainly a political statement and the head of the RC church understands this.  It's far from being his only questionable decision while in that office.

After massacring and expelling Jews from Judea, the Romans renamed the area Syria Palestina with two intentions in mind: to punish the Jews by naming the area after one of their biblical enemies, and to erase Jewish connections to, and identification with, the land.

[+OverSword]

29 minutes ago, Claira said:

After massacring and expelling Jews from Judea, the Romans renamed the area Syria Palestina with two intentions in mind: to punish the Jews by naming the area after one of their biblical enemies, and to erase Jewish connections to, and identification with, the land.

Everyone knows that.  Even our good friend Setton I reckon.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

10 hours ago, Claira said:

There are also Catholics who believe Jesus was a Catholic Christian by faith. They're delusional.

and apostates, as everyone who makes rulings on this matter within the Faith is clear on the matter. 

10 hours ago, Claira said:

Jesus was born a Jew. He lived and died a Jew. Period.

Yes. Yes, he was. 

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

8 hours ago, Setton said:

Strange that you'd take that from a piece of cloth that in no way references or relates to Jews or Judaism.

Remind me, what was the name of the province covering Bethlehem at the time Jesus would have been born?

Judea IIRC.

[CrimsonKing]

5 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Judea IIRC.

Stop trying to ruin the narrative...

I want to see where this is going 🫣