C.I.A. Now Favors Lab Leak Theory to Explain Covid’s Origins

[psyche101]

6 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Isn't you're very opinion based on the supposed US Political bias toward China?

No, I've explained this. My opinion is backed by science and I offer plenty of supporting links. 

Chinese are saying America genetically engineered the disease remember. I see both as bad as each other. Both countries are being stupid and childish. 

Almost every argument including motive is also applicable to America and their poor relationship with China and the lies about having evidence of a lab leak. America is pushing the lab leak idea really hard ...... suspicious in itself. Such a strong effort without evidence looks like an attempt to shift blame. What does your government know that we don't? June cases of Covid 19 in Maryland covered up? Sufferers disposed of quietly? How would we know? Why would we trust the swamp? America just bribed a nation and elected a convicted criminal. The one who started this political war. Would you trust them? Would it be sensible to do so?

Motivation? Plenty isn't there. Suspicious of how pushy the US is with regards to the lab leak idea without evidence. Speculation to support speculation just isn't valid. Something looks totally fishy there. But is it taken seriously? In china it is. Stupid people there believe politicians over science too. Ignorance isn't confined by any boundary. 

Of course none of that nastiness has any place in the scientific conclusions. Crazy of me to prefer that path huh! But do people want the truth, or do they want to be entertained? 

I think we know though don't we, and that's why the lab leak idea, be it the American version or Chinese version are just sht talk. 

[psyche101]

36 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Except they can't. They've been trained how they could hide the change markers years before.

This is settled fact now. The technique is known. And the training of WIV personel was documented. 

This sequence similarity suggests that RaTG13‐like viruses could be the ancestor of SARS‐CoV‐2. Noteworthy, there are more than 1000 nucleotide differences between SARS‐CoV‐2 and RaTG13, dispersed throughout the genome. Thus, it is impossible that RaTG13 was manipulated via targeted mutagenesis to generate SARS‐CoV‐2. 

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7995093/

36 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

So where is the virus thst it came from? RaTG13 is the closest known. Yet is said to not be possible as the ancestor.

So just magically came out of no where? Those numbers basically enforce my point that they've zero idea where it came from.

As soon as they find a virus that could be the precursor in a bat population, I'll give over and assign the crossover theory at 100%. Do you think that will happen?

Again.

BANAL-52, BANAL-103 and BANAL-236. 

Closer than RaTG13. Natural. 

36 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Rather more like finding a green dog outside a kennel that breeds green dogs. While scientists with a bias point at thousands of wild dogs, with zero of them being green.

Nope. I was much closer. 

It's the SARS capital of the world. 

Scientists with bias now? Where's that coming from? Are you questioning the scientists because a politician told you to? 

36 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

And I just posted to that one. Basically it is wrong.

At least now you admit they knew how.

Yea, I've never denied that they worked with international scientists on a regular basis, some actually in WIV till the last minute. Boots on the ground. Not a shiny ass wanting to sound important. 

36 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

There's actually zero evidence of any infected animals also. Only correlation due to proximity of samples to cages.

No that's not true, there's mountains of studies supporting the natural origin from generic structure, locations of first cases, relative viruses endemic to China, which is in turn supported by the samples, racoon dog data and the convenience of perfect conditions at the wet market to super spread the virus. 

The lab leak is only founded upon political distrust. Nothing more. Science should take precedence. 

36 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Chinese had the tools, training, and motive (money). And had made a virus with the specific change before.

Motive?

Killing their own people and being demonised by the world's right wing politicians is motivation how? 

America had the tools, training, and is withholding information as much as China. Relations have never been good. And America knew more about manipulating the virus than China did, they trained them. America's position makes it more suspicious the way it wants to push the lab leak and use distrust to accomplish that. Like a set up. Perhaps Trump thought he could act a saviour and win his next term but timing went out because the virus didn't keep to schedule. 

36 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

And yet no bat has been found with a closer pre-covid19 match that could have been the precursor. The other SARs viruses like MERs, had clear intermediary animals, and a clear precursor virus. Yet not so here?

And, we're told to gain the furin cleavage spike change, it would have had to have traveled within bats for quite a long time. Yet zero bats are positive for anything that could have mutated into Covid19.

I'll let you correct yourself there. I've done that twice already. 

36 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Except as the CIA report said, WIV didn't even admit they had RaTG13 till early 2020. So why would they openly admit to have an actual precursor virus? Especially after infections got out of China in early 2020.

If they were hiding viruses that couldn't have been the base. Why couldn't they be hiding the actual base? Answer: of course they could have.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12250-016-3713-9

Except even before it was called RaTG13, the genome was published and a paper written? On springerlink? In the above link, I'm sure you will recognise the significance of the species Rhinolophus affinis. 

36 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Like you said, they have thousands of viruses, and most not cultured and genomes run. Not publicly anyway. 

In nature. 

36 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Would China even tell anyone if they did find the precursor virus? I doubt it.

International scientists would. 

[+joc]

14 hours ago, psyche101 said:

Which part are you struggling with?

I don't struggle.  I flow!

...be like water my friend!

[+joc]

On 1/27/2025 at 5:22 AM, psyche101 said:

I've already given you the paper explaining exactly why the RatG13 can't have been modified into SARS 2. And why the furring cleavage methods can't be applied to get Covid 19 out of RaTG13.  

Your thoughts process is very similar to another poster (SkyEagle) who, when asked for proof,  reaches for newspaper clippings and inconsequential innuendos of what other people have said (about UFOs)..

The only proof of UFOs is the physical proof of either a Spacecraft or an Alien.  Either of which must be presented to the entire world where scientific analysis can render a verdict on the authenticity of the evidence 

The same is true here.  The only proof of transmission from animal to human would be an actual animal that transmitted the disease to a human. And that animal also must be presented to the entire world where scientific analysis can render a verdict on the authenticity of the evidence.

 

 

[+DieChecker]

11 hours ago, psyche101 said:

So utter silly speculation then. 

Everytime you bend further into a political view you get further away from evidence of a lab leak and only keep piling up unfounded speculation to support unfounded speculation. 

Here is something I read today. 

Former Sec of State Blinken putting out a book.

https://apnews.com/article/antony-blinken-book-deal-secretary-of-state-a2ba744dee92a1263140a88d9d7fae9f

Quote

Crown promised Blinken’s book would “take readers into the Situation Room and the Oval Office to hear the discussion about how to keep tensions with China from spiraling to dangerous levels.”

There you go, total insider saying Biden was crazy to prevent relations with China going into dangerous territory. 

[psyche101]

11 hours ago, joc said:

I don't struggle.  I flow!

...be like water my friend!

Clearly not in this instance. It's not hard 

11 hours ago, joc said:

Your thoughts process is very similar to another poster (SkyEagle) who, when asked for proof,  reaches for newspaper clippings and inconsequential innuendos of what other people have said (about UFOs)..

The only proof of UFOs is the physical proof of either a Spacecraft or an Alien.  Either of which must be presented to the entire world where scientific analysis can render a verdict on the authenticity of the evidence 

The same is true here.  The only proof of transmission from animal to human would be an actual animal that transmitted the disease to a human. And that animal also must be presented to the entire world where scientific analysis can render a verdict on the authenticity of the evidence.

No its not, I've provided the science 

It's all valid and supported. 

You not understanding it doesn't invalidate it. 

You are the skyeagle here. You won't look at real world information so you can maintain your political beliefs when science refutes them. We actually have samples history and comparisons, nothing like UFOs which have no evidence behind them whatsoever. Easier for you to block your ears and go lalala I'm right lalala at the top of your voice. 

You keep using politics, I'll keep using science. I'm fine with that. 

Just our of interest, where do you get your information regarding virology and Covid? It looks like to came from Facebook or something.

[psyche101]

7 hours ago, DieChecker said:

Here is something I read today. 

Former Sec of State Blinken putting out a book.

https://apnews.com/article/antony-blinken-book-deal-secretary-of-state-a2ba744dee92a1263140a88d9d7fae9f

There you go, total insider saying Biden was crazy to prevent relations with China going into dangerous territory. 

Not sure how you get that out of it. The link says tensions were very high. 

[+joc]

12 hours ago, psyche101 said:

Clearly not in this instance. It's not hard 

No its not, I've provided the science 

It's all valid and supported. 

You not understanding it doesn't invalidate it. 

You are the skyeagle here. You won't look at real world information so you can maintain your political beliefs when science refutes them. We actually have samples history and comparisons, nothing like UFOs which have no evidence behind them whatsoever. Easier for you to block your ears and go lalala I'm right lalala at the top of your voice. 

You keep using politics, I'll keep using science. I'm fine with that. 

Just our of interest, where do you get your information regarding virology and Covid? It looks like to came from Facebook or something.

You haven't provided squat Psyche.  Suedo Science is what you believe in.  Do we know where Covid came from?  No.  Do we know where Ebola came from? Yes!  How?  Because we found dead and dying monkeys infected and traced it to a cave in Kenya where bats are the carrier.  The bats bit the monkeys, the people ate the monkeys...wallah!

There is no 'animal' that infected the entire world with Covid.  If there is...then find that animal...then we know where it came from. 

btw...I'm not saying it didn't come from an animal...I am saying that unless you know what animal then you don't know.  And even if it came from infected animals, there is also a possibility that said animals were infected in a lab in Wuhan!  Now, go back to school...you missed a few lessons compadre!

[psyche101]

8 hours ago, joc said:

You haven't provided squat Psyche.  Suedo Science is what you believe in.  Do we know where Covid came from?  No.  Do we know where Ebola came from? Yes!  How?  Because we found dead and dying monkeys infected and traced it to a cave in Kenya where bats are the carrier.  The bats bit the monkeys, the people ate the monkeys...wallah!

There is no 'animal' that infected the entire world with Covid.  If there is...then find that animal...then we know where it came from. 

btw...I'm not saying it didn't come from an animal...I am saying that unless you know what animal then you don't know.  And even if it came from infected animals, there is also a possibility that said animals were infected in a lab in Wuhan!  Now, go back to school...you missed a few lessons compadre!

Uhhhh joc.. ...

There's no origin for ebola. The animal was never found. The science that says Covid originated in bats is the same science used to determine that Ebola came from fruit bats. 

There is an animal that hosts sars. Bats 

Joc, you are really bad at this. Your beliefs are just wrong. 

No. There's no chance the animals at WIV were infected. There's no virus, or precursor virus there that can cause Covid. You understand that you need that first yeah? 

[+joc]

5 hours ago, psyche101 said:

Uhhhh joc.. ...

There's no origin for ebola. The animal was never found. The science that says Covid originated in bats is the same science used to determine that Ebola came from fruit bats. 

Uhhhhh Psyche...

You are WRONG!  

I don't always say, I told you so, but when I do...it's because I told you so!

Ebola Virus Infection in Imported Primates -- Virginia, 1989

In late November 1989, Ebola virus was isolated from cynomolgus monkeys (Macaca fascicularis) imported into the United States from the Philippines via Amsterdam and New York. During quarantine in a primate facility in Virginia, numerous macaques died, some with findings consistent with simian hemorrhagic fever (SHF). The U.S. Army Medical Research Institute of Infectious Diseases tested 10 animals and, from three, isolated SHF from tissues and serum; however, five other animals of the 10 tested were positive for Ebola virus. Monkeys from a later shipment quarantined in a second room also had unusually high mortality and were tested by a rapid antigen detection enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay. Ebola viral antigen was detected in serum and/or tissues from seven of these monkeys. Primary liver material from animals in both rooms exhibited particles with typical filovirus morphology by electron microscopy and Ebola virus antigen by immunohistochemistry.

[psyche101]

2 hours ago, joc said:

Uhhhhh Psyche...

You are WRONG!  

I don't always say, I told you so, but when I do...it's because I told you so!

And when you do say that, I have to shoot a crow so you can eat it 

You were wrong about everything Covid, why do thing that will change with another virus you don't really know much about? 

2 hours ago, joc said:

Ebola Virus Infection in Imported Primates -- Virginia, 1989

In late November 1989, Ebola virus was isolated from cynomolgus monkeys (Macaca fascicularis) imported into the United States from the Philippines via Amsterdam and New York. During quarantine in a primate facility in Virginia, numerous macaques died, some with findings consistent with simian hemorrhagic fever (SHF). The U.S. Army Medical Research Institute of Infectious Diseases tested 10 animals and, from three, isolated SHF from tissues and serum; however, five other animals of the 10 tested were positive for Ebola virus. Monkeys from a later shipment quarantined in a second room also had unusually high mortality and were tested by a rapid antigen detection enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay. Ebola viral antigen was detected in serum and/or tissues from seven of these monkeys. Primary liver material from animals in both rooms exhibited particles with typical filovirus morphology by electron microscopy and Ebola virus antigen by immunohistochemistry.

 

Mate, you're not even in the right country. 

Or the right decade. Ebola was first identified in Africa in 1976. It was old news by 1989.

So which monkey was it that spread ebola to a human? I'll give be you the tip. None of the ones you posted about. Ebola was rife by the time they hit the states.

You did notice you posted about imported monkeys yeah? Ebola didn't originate in the states. It originated in Africa decades earlier. You are way off base. Into the weeds. 

Now, about the same thing you are asking about Covid........

Contact with monkeys has been reported in human outbreaks in Central Africa [16, 17] and chimpanzees in Ivory Coast [10]. Monkeys themselves appear to be susceptible to EBOV infection, at least experimentally [18]. Outside of Africa, Reston ebolavirus (RESTV) has been linked to monkeys, with macaques imported to the United States from the Philippines infected [19], but the mammals linked to RESTV in Asia are similar to Africa, with pigs, monkeys, and bats all implicated as hosts [20–22].

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7107455/#:~:text=Outside of Africa%2C Reston ebolavirus,hosts [20–22].
 

Where's the origin animal? Can you post a picture of it? Link to something in it? Not a bunch of monkeys in the states years after the initial outbreak. That's not an origin animal by any means. 

And you do realise that the monkey's were suspected to be infected by fruit bats yeah?

Do you know anything about ebola or are you using Google to pull things out your butt?? 

And get a load of this:

Despite arduous efforts by some intrepid scientists, Ebola virus has never been tracked to its source in the wild.

https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/seeking-source-ebola/

Never tracked in the wild.

Kinda dents your argument that does 

But hey, let's double check at Wikipedia 

Although it is not entirely clear how Ebola initially spreads from animals to humans, the spread is believed to involve direct contact with an infected wild animal or fruit bat.[62] 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebola

Well look at that huh. No host animal ever found. How about that. 

You're virus beliefs are dodgy as joc. Might be time to open a textbook. Or do I start calling you skyeagle ii?

Edited January 30 by psyche101

[+joc]

6 hours ago, psyche101 said:

And when you do say that, I have to shoot a crow so you can eat it 

You were wrong about everything Covid, why do thing that will change with another virus you don't really know much about? 

 

Mate, you're not even in the right country. 

Or the right decade. Ebola was first identified in Africa in 1976. It was old news by 1989.

So which monkey was it that spread ebola to a human? I'll give be you the tip. None of the ones you posted about. Ebola was rife by the time they hit the states.

You did notice you posted about imported monkeys yeah? Ebola didn't originate in the states. It originated in Africa decades earlier. You are way off base. Into the weeds. 

Now, about the same thing you are asking about Covid........

Contact with monkeys has been reported in human outbreaks in Central Africa [16, 17] and chimpanzees in Ivory Coast [10]. Monkeys themselves appear to be susceptible to EBOV infection, at least experimentally [18]. Outside of Africa, Reston ebolavirus (RESTV) has been linked to monkeys, with macaques imported to the United States from the Philippines infected [19], but the mammals linked to RESTV in Asia are similar to Africa, with pigs, monkeys, and bats all implicated as hosts [20–22].

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7107455/#:~:text=Outside of Africa%2C Reston ebolavirus,hosts [20–22].
 

Where's the origin animal? Can you post a picture of it? Link to something in it? Not a bunch of monkeys in the states years after the initial outbreak. That's not an origin animal by any means. 

And you do realise that the monkey's were suspected to be infected by fruit bats yeah?

Do you know anything about ebola or are you using Google to pull things out your butt?? 

And get a load of this:

Despite arduous efforts by some intrepid scientists, Ebola virus has never been tracked to its source in the wild.

https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/seeking-source-ebola/

Never tracked in the wild.

Kinda dents your argument that does 

But hey, let's double check at Wikipedia 

Although it is not entirely clear how Ebola initially spreads from animals to humans, the spread is believed to involve direct contact with an infected wild animal or fruit bat.[62] 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebola

Well look at that huh. No host animal ever found. How about that. 

You're virus beliefs are dodgy as joc. Might be time to open a textbook. Or do I start calling you skyeagle ii?

More blustering with bs.  Everyone knows that 'Baffling with BS' is your MO.  It's a defense mechanism that you use because you cannot accept that you could ever be wrong about anything.  

Monkeys were found with Ebola ...fact!  Bats are the likely cause...but we don't know how the monkeys wound up with Ebola for certain. What we do know is that Monkeys are a human food source in that part of Africa. The transmission link is from monkeys to humans. 

If anyone has found a Covid transmission link  from animals to humans then please, by all means, show us. Otherwise I am done with this conversation.  

 

 

[psyche101]

12 hours ago, joc said:

More blustering with bs.  Everyone knows that 'Baffling with BS' is your MO.  It's a defense mechanism that you use because you cannot accept that you could ever be wrong about anything.  

I challenge you to pick out anything I have posted that is BS and dot point it. 

Otherwise I will suggest you are just blowing smoke out your ass to save face. 

You were wrong about ebola. Have the man bits to admit it. 

12 hours ago, joc said:

Monkeys were found with Ebola ...fact!  Bats are the likely cause...but we don't know how the monkeys wound up with Ebola for certain. What we do know is that Monkeys are a human food source in that part of Africa. The transmission link is from monkeys to humans. 

And your monkeys got ebola 13 years after it was identified 

So it's just silly to claim they are the origin animal.

There is no origin animal for ebola, .

What you are saying up there is exactly why raccoon dogs are the most likely original animal just let me raccoon dogs likely brought Covid to the wet market. 

You need to pull your head out of Donald's butt and actually look at the real world. 

Seem the Netflix special don't look up? I reckon it's a parody of Maga and Covid. 

12 hours ago, joc said:

If anyone has found a Covid transmission link  from animals to humans then please, by all means, show us. Otherwise I am done with this conversation.  

You started it, now offer the origin animal for ebola like you say exists. You made the claim, support it please. 

Why do you refuse to read the links I have already supplied showing the real world evidence that we do have which only supports a natural origin and doesn't at all support a lab leak? 

New data links Covid-19’s origins to raccoon dogs at Wuhan market

Their analysis of gene sequences posted by the Chinese team to the scientific database Gisaid found that some of the Covid-positive samples were rich in DNA from raccoon dogs. Traces of DNA belonging to other mammals, including civets, were also present in Covid-positive samples.

The Strongest Evidence Yet That an Animal Started the Pandemic

 

Now, an international team of virologists, genomicists, and evolutionary biologists may have finally found crucial data to help fill that knowledge gap. A new analysis of genetic sequences collected from the market shows that raccoon dogs being illegally sold at the venue could have been carrying and possibly shedding the virus at the end of 2019. It’s some of the strongest support yet, experts told me, that the pandemic began when SARS-CoV-2 hopped from animals into humans, rather than in an accident among scientists experimenting with viruses.

Every single piece of actual data says that Covid has a natural origin. Not one thing suggests lab leak. That's purely based upon paranoia. 

If you refuse the above factual information, you are just being a science denier. A political puppet. 

Edited January 31 by psyche101

[+DieChecker]

On 1/28/2025 at 9:37 PM, psyche101 said:

Not sure how you get that out of it. The link says tensions were very high. 

You asked why Biden might want the result to be the Crossover theory. High tensions doesn't seem like a reason?

[psyche101]

11 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

You asked why Biden might want the result to be the Crossover theory. High tensions doesn't seem like a reason?

I wouldn't have thought so. Tensions on both sides don't usually results in favours. 

Xi doesn't like Biden. And vice versa. Remember when a reporter asked if he was still a dictator and Joe said yes? 

Real DuOh! Moment that. I'm surprised it didn't escalate.

[+DieChecker]

On 1/28/2025 at 5:21 AM, psyche101 said:

This sequence similarity suggests that RaTG13‐like viruses could be the ancestor of SARS‐CoV‐2. Noteworthy, there are more than 1000 nucleotide differences between SARS‐CoV‐2 and RaTG13, dispersed throughout the genome. Thus, it is impossible that RaTG13 was manipulated via targeted mutagenesis to generate SARS‐CoV‐2. 

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7995093/

How many nucleotides CAN they change at a time? 

How many such changes could be done between 2019 and when the base virus was found? Assuming RaTG13 that means 6 to 7 years.

That's like saying you couldn't learn ten languages, because no one can do that at the same time. But than add you did it over 30 years, and now people are like, oh, yeah, well...

Quote

Again.

BANAL-52, BANAL-103 and BANAL-236. 

Closer than RaTG13. Natural. 

And all with the same problems of distance. And also said to not be the ancestor, or able to be engineered into Covid19.

No furin cleavage spike.

Id be interested in literature that openly stated any of these probably are the origin source. AFAIK, no ones openly said, "It likely was this virus", other than to say it was one of thousands of bat coronaviruses.

Quote

Scientists with bias now? Where's that coming from? Are you questioning the scientists because a politician told you to?

The Proximal Origin paper. Mostly put out for political reasons. Many of the scientists had expressed doubts just days before, but all disliked Trump. 1 + 1 = 2.

Quote

No that's not true, there's mountains of studies supporting the natural origin from generic structure, locations of first cases, relative viruses endemic to China, which is in turn supported by the samples, racoon dog data and the convenience of perfect conditions at the wet market to super spread the virus.

It's true there are studies supporting natural origin. But genetic studies without real examples prove little. Circumstantial. 

Locations of victims, only proves where the pandemic started, not where the virus originated. Circumstantial. 

Relative viruses we're told arent the precursor. And couldnt be modified by science. Circumstantial.

Raccoon dogs which were detected in a cage area where covid19 was detected. But we know 100% there were humans and rac-dogs there. And zero rac-dogs tested in the province came up possitive. Circumstantial.

No direct evidence. All circumstantial.

Quote

The lab leak is only founded upon political distrust. Nothing more. Science should take precedence.

You know, other than the facts you don't want to be true.

Quote

Motive?

Killing their own people and being demonised by the world's right wing politicians is motivation how? 

Well, I wrote "money". Which motivates many, many people.

They had no expectation of it getting out. I'm not suggesting it was done on purpose. They wouldn't have wanted to kill anyone, other than hypothetically. 

Quote

America had the tools, training, and is withholding information as much as China. Relations have never been good. And America knew more about manipulating the virus than China did, they trained them. America's position makes it more suspicious the way it wants to push the lab leak and use distrust to accomplish that. Like a set up. Perhaps Trump thought he could act a saviour and win his next term but timing went out because the virus didn't keep to schedule.

Talk about conspiracies. The Chinese theory it was "bad seafood", is more likely.

Ive said before if the virus appeared just outside a US virus research facility, I'd have the same suspicions. 

Quote

I'll let you correct yourself there. I've done that twice already.

And I still say your wrong. Prove me wrong with actual bats with an actual virus that could have mutated into covid19. None have been found. That we know of anyway.

If you're saying one of those bat coronaviruses could have mutated. I'd agree. But ask for the proof. No proof. Just supposition. 

Is it very likely? Id say yes, it has happened before. But is it conclusive? Not even close.

Quote

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12250-016-3713-9

Except even before it was called RaTG13, the genome was published and a paper written? On springerlink? In the above link, I'm sure you will recognise the significance of the species Rhinolophus affinis. 

Still 1900 km from Tongguan in Yunnan to Wuhan in Hubai. Though you're right the bat species exists very close to Wuhan.

So where is the proof that happened?

I do see your point in that it wasnt hidden, but I think that just further strengthens the idea it was there at WIV the whole time. Probably still is.

We can't know what they were hiding, because there's never been an outside audit of their viruses.

Quote

In nature.

They had to collect them to know they're there. And have examined them to identify how many there are.

Quote

International scientists would.

Not if they're Americans, according to you. ??

And China wouldn't allow international scientists to check the data anyway.

Edited January 31 by DieChecker

[+joc]

10 hours ago, psyche101 said:

If you refuse the above factual information, you are just being a science denier. A political puppet. 

Still trying to politicize Covid I see.

Everything you think do or say is tainted by your political beliefs.  

I have no desire to hear you or anyone else preach your beliefs.

 

[joseraul]

If its confirmed lab leak and that was one of the theories.. I am always astonished by the people who were like ''I am not gonna protect myself, or let this stop me, gonna live my life!!'' and it's literally something leaked from a lab. lol.

[psyche101]

On 1/31/2025 at 2:44 PM, DieChecker said:

How many nucleotides CAN they change at a time? 

How many such changes could be done between 2019 and when the base virus was found? Assuming RaTG13 that means 6 to 7 years.

That's like saying you couldn't learn ten languages, because no one can do that at the same time. But than add you did it over 30 years, and now people are like, oh, yeah, well...

That's a really weird line of questioning. Shouldn't you be telling me these things are possible and why your layman's understanding is a valid proposition? You're just taking wild stabs and making me do the work. 

Please investigate your proposals to at least consider viability of your ideas. 

How many at a time? Well it's about sixty a generation isn't it? You're telling the story. Thousands would compact an evolutionary timeline into a noticeable aspect illustrating genetic manipulation wouldn't it? Not to mention that one Animo acid change results in 100 amino acid residues. Your hypothesis is more like fish evolving into modern humans in about two steps. 

On 1/31/2025 at 2:44 PM, DieChecker said:

And all with the same problems of distance. And also said to not be the ancestor, or able to be engineered into Covid19.

What are you on about? 

The links I gave you specifically stated that RatG13 and the BANAL variants are indeed a possible ancestor or SARS-2. 

Not a precursor, and ancestor. In your haste have you completely missed that bit? 

On 1/31/2025 at 2:44 PM, DieChecker said:

No furin cleavage spike.

No, that's not how the ancestors work, the spike isn't particularly effective to bats but a product of evolution to bind to the ACE2 human receptor. This happened in the intermediate species which we have been trying to find. 

Again, from the links left

SARS‐CoV‐2 likely interacts with ACE2 from various animals, suggesting that the ancestor of SARS‐CoV‐2 naturally passed through these animals before introduction to humans. 61 All these pieces of evidence strongly support the natural emergence of SARS‐CoV‐2.

On 1/31/2025 at 2:44 PM, DieChecker said:

Id be interested in literature that openly stated any of these probably are the origin source. AFAIK, no ones openly said, "It likely was this virus", other than to say it was one of thousands of bat coronaviruses.

Go back and read the links I left you then. Do you actually read them or just compare what I post to your yes men at the CIA and FBI? 

This sequence similarity suggests that RaTG13‐like viruses could be the ancestor of SARS‐CoV‐2.

Collectively, RaTG13 could be the origin of SARS‐CoV‐2, although it is less likely that RaTG13 is the immediate ancestor of SARS‐CoV‐2.

On the basis of comparison of the sequences around the cleavage site between S1 and S2 (Extended Data Fig. 3), it has been suggested that the furin cleavage site in SARS-CoV-2 could originate from recombination events between SARS-CoV-2-related coronaviruses co-circulating in bats2,47, meaning that BANAL-116, BANAL-247, bat RmYN02 (ref. 2) and bat RacCS203 (ref. 3) coronaviruses may share a common history with SARS-CoV-2. Alternatively, the furin cleavage site could have been acquired through passages of the virus in an alternative host or during an early poorly symptomatic unreported circulation in humans. 

On 1/31/2025 at 2:44 PM, DieChecker said:

The Proximal Origin paper. Mostly put out for political reasons. Many of the scientists had expressed doubts just days before, but all disliked Trump. 1 + 1 = 2.

Not acceptable. Republican paranoia. 

And once again, article. Not paper. Quite an important distinction as it illustrates conservative conspiracy over reach. Did any of them specifically state anything about Trump himself? And if so, in what context? It not like there aren't people put there who don't like him. That's just a natural reaction to the man. My understanding is the comment raked over coals was "I hate it when politics gets involved with science". And that is a more than fair comment. The fact that scientists ran ideas amongst themselves early in the piece is how the process is f elimination works. The fact that there's controversy over the proximal origin article, is illustrative of just how stupid and ignorant your politicians are and how little they understand or respect science. The situation is the exact opposite of what you are proposing. 

On 1/31/2025 at 2:44 PM, DieChecker said:

It's true there are studies supporting natural origin. But genetic studies without real examples prove little. Circumstantial. 

Nonsense. Genetics are building blocks. They provide specific insights as to what is possible and bot possible. It's not like just any animal is considered an origin or intermediate hosts because in the genetic world there are limits to possibilities. Nobody is suggesting a panda is the origin animal are they. 

On 1/31/2025 at 2:44 PM, DieChecker said:

Locations of victims, only proves where the pandemic started, not where the virus originated. Circumstantial. 

Hard proof of initial outbreak which is a specific indicator of origin. 

On 1/31/2025 at 2:44 PM, DieChecker said:

Relative viruses we're told arent the precursor. And couldnt be modified by science. Circumstantial.

Hard proof that an ancestor exists in the wild quite capable of evolving in an intermediate host. And samples at WIV are a fraction of what actually exists in nature. Look goc dictates natural origin. 

On 1/31/2025 at 2:44 PM, DieChecker said:

Raccoon dogs which were detected in a cage area where covid19 was detected. But we know 100% there were humans and rac-dogs there. And zero rac-dogs tested in the province came up possitive. Circumstantial.

No humans in the area full time, your photos illustrate that. Samples were taken from cages. Humans aren't caged at the market and there no good reason to think an animal living in a cage is less likely to deposit a virus than an infrequent visitor. Short duration vicinity isn't illustrated to be particularly transmissive. Over fifteen minutes the risk begins to rise.

On 1/31/2025 at 2:44 PM, DieChecker said:

No direct evidence. All circumstantial.

No. The samples collected are direct evidence that Covid was definitely in the wet market and that the market is a perfect incubator and spreader situation. WIV is based purely in distrust of Chinese officials whilst disregarding the science. There is absolutely no evidence of the virus at WIV, or a precursor virus or any indication of a biosecurity failure. 

On 1/31/2025 at 2:44 PM, DieChecker said:

You know, other than the facts you don't want to be true.

That just a lie. You can do better. Shame on you. 

You have said this before and did not answer when I asked what evidence there is of a precursor virus at WIV or evidence or a biosecurity breach. 

All you have provided is wrays pathetic what ifs scenarios that are merely more mud slung at the Chinese to support previous mud slung. He's actually an embarrassment to your country. That fanciful idiot is in charge of federal bureau investigations. He makes America look weak paranoid and unintelligent. 

On 1/31/2025 at 2:44 PM, DieChecker said:

Well, I wrote "money". Which motivates many, many people.

They had no expectation of it getting out. I'm not suggesting it was done on purpose. They wouldn't have wanted to kill anyone, other than hypothetically. 

What money?

Less trade, by a long shot, crippling the retail sector, workers dying, America made the most money through the pharmaceutical sector. Isn't that how the bad guy scenario tends to work? Poison someone then offer the antidote for blackmail or to look good? They did America's big pharma a favour for what reason exactly? 

On 1/31/2025 at 2:44 PM, DieChecker said:

Talk about conspiracies. The Chinese theory it was "bad seafood", is more likely.

Ive said before if the virus appeared just outside a US virus research facility, I'd have the same suspicions. 

We do know fort Detrick did have a lab leak in 2019. There's no doubt it would be beneficial to plant the virus near a virus centre and drop a few hints to point at a lab leak. Then the US can look squeaky clean, and get the world in their side and increase global distrust in China, leading them into a defensive position where they knew china would just close doors with a big FU, as is their nature to do as a very proud nation. The US could go, crap, we have a grave situation on our hands or they could go, we can make this work. And considering the FBI'S pitiful contribution, and now the CIA yes men falling into line, it seems just as plausible as a leak at WIV where no precursor virus existed and biosecurity is defended by the international scientific community. The hard push for the unfounded lab leak accusation just pulls it all together. 

On 1/31/2025 at 2:44 PM, DieChecker said:

And I still say your wrong. Prove me wrong with actual bats with an actual virus that could have mutated into covid19. None have been found. That we know of anyway.

If you're saying one of those bat coronaviruses could have mutated. I'd agree. But ask for the proof. No proof. Just supposition. 

Is it very likely? Id say yes, it has happened before. But is it conclusive? Not even close.

Has it happened before ? Swine flu, bird flu, camel flu are all SARS virus that have happened before through zoonosis and are similar enough to have provided base groundwork for mRNA vaccines that eventually brought Covid 19 under control. How's that not a previous example?

And again, I've shown above that RatG13 and the BANAL variants are all possible ancestors of SARS-2. The spike protein developing on the intermediary hosts to be more compatible with the ACE2 receptor. They hold the same genetic code and are undoubtedly related. SARS-2 is likely a combination of them. 

It's in an actual paper above. Again. 

On 1/31/2025 at 2:44 PM, DieChecker said:

Still 1900 km from Tongguan in Yunnan to Wuhan in Hubai. Though you're right the bat species exists very close to Wuhan.

So where is the proof that happened?

I do see your point in that it wasnt hidden, but I think that just further strengthens the idea it was there at WIV the whole time. Probably still is.

Proof that it happened? What do you mean? There are viruses known globally that are described in that very paper. It's not a theory, it's history. 

Yes, as far as I know RaTG13 was there. It cannot be modified into Covid 19. I've already given you the paper on why twice now! 

On 1/31/2025 at 2:44 PM, DieChecker said:

We can't know what they were hiding, because there's never been an outside audit of their viruses.

There's a historical record inclusive of international scientists that have been there over the last few years and right up until December 2019. 

It's just as likely they were hiding bigfoot. 

On 1/31/2025 at 2:44 PM, DieChecker said:

They had to collect them to know they're there. And have examined them to identify how many there are.

Yes and they did and it confirms that sars and Covid variants are rife in the country. Likely to be literally thousands of variants. In nature. 

On 1/31/2025 at 2:44 PM, DieChecker said:

Not if they're Americans, according to you. ??

You are the one calling your scientists biased because they aren't towing a political line! You proudly showcase the Republican inquisition of an article. 

On 1/31/2025 at 2:44 PM, DieChecker said:

And China wouldn't allow international scientists to check the data anyway.

And that still doesn't change the fact that all data illustrates natural origin and not one piece of evidence regarding a biosecurity breach or precursor virus exists. The lab leak accusations still consists of racist tropes and nothing else. 

[psyche101]

On 1/31/2025 at 10:41 PM, joc said:

Still trying to politicize Covid I see.

Everything you think do or say is tainted by your political beliefs.  

I have no desire to hear you or anyone else preach your beliefs.

 

That's a super poor deflection on your behalf joc. What politics? Covid is a medical issue. Dumb to consider political views on it isn't it? 

Where's the ebola origin animal? No origin animal means lab leak according to you doesn't it? 

Go on, stick to the science, you tell me the answers are there. Post them. Or you could admit you are making it up as you go along and don't have the foggiest what you are talking about. 

[psyche101]

On 2/1/2025 at 8:30 AM, joseraul said:

If its confirmed lab leak and that was one of the theories.. I am always astonished by the people who were like ''I am not gonna protect myself, or let this stop me, gonna live my life!!'' and it's literally something leaked from a lab. lol.

Ses rather contradictory doesn't it. It was china! But it doesn't exist. And it's not dangerous LoL. 

Perhaps it's just an excuse to quote the archaic constitution to pretend one is patriotic. Who knows. America is nuts these days. 

[+joc]

8 hours ago, psyche101 said:

That's a super poor deflection on your behalf joc. What politics? Covid is a medical issue. Dumb to consider political views on it isn't it? 

Where's the ebola origin animal? No origin animal means lab leak according to you doesn't it? 

Go on, stick to the science, you tell me the answers are there. Post them. Or you could admit you are making it up as you go along and don't have the foggiest what you are talking about. 

I am finished with the conversation.

[+DieChecker]

On 2/2/2025 at 12:58 AM, psyche101 said:

That's a really weird line of questioning. Shouldn't you be telling me these things are possible and why your layman's understanding is a valid proposition? You're just taking wild stabs and making me do the work. 

Please investigate your proposals to at least consider viability of your ideas. 

How many at a time? Well it's about sixty a generation isn't it? You're telling the story. Thousands would compact an evolutionary timeline into a noticeable aspect illustrating genetic manipulation wouldn't it? Not to mention that one Animo acid change results in 100 amino acid residues. Your hypothesis is more like fish evolving into modern humans in about two steps. 

Well, didn't you say you were a layman too?

It's true I don't know much about nucleotides, but I do understand politics and cover ups, and when a nation goes the wrong way. It's clear WIV had the training and the equipment, and the motive.

Here is a good run down of the lab leak evidence.

https://www.firstpost.com/world/5-years-later-smoking-gun-points-to-chinese-wuhan-lab-in-search-of-covid-19-origin-13848124.html#goog_rewarded

Quote

The links I gave you specifically stated that RatG13 and the BANAL variants are indeed a possible ancestor or SARS-2.

Thank you.

Indeed seems someone has said so at least once. 

Seems that crossover people are saying could have been any of thousands of viruses. Because they dont really know, do they?

Quote

Not a precursor, and ancestor. In your haste have you completely missed that bit?

I thought those were the same. I'll use ancestor going forword, if that's your preference. 

Quote

No, that's not how the ancestors work, the spike isn't particularly effective to bats but a product of evolution to bind to the ACE2 human receptor. This happened in the intermediate species which we have been trying to find.

Thank you.

An animal we still haven't found. Not found, though hundreds, or thousands, of animals were tested.

Quote

Again, from the links left

SARS‐CoV‐2 likely interacts with ACE2 from various animals, suggesting that the ancestor of SARS‐CoV‐2 naturally passed through these animals before introduction to humans. 61 All these pieces of evidence strongly support the natural emergence of SARS‐CoV‐2.

"Likely", "Suggests". Than the opinion based on that maybe, that "strongly supports". When it does not "strongly" support. It merely suggests.

Quote

This sequence similarity suggests that RaTG13‐like viruses could be the ancestor of SARS‐CoV‐2.

Collectively, RaTG13 could be the origin of SARS‐CoV‐2, although it is less likely that RaTG13 is the immediate ancestor of SARS‐CoV‐2.

On the basis of comparison of the sequences around the cleavage site between S1 and S2 (Extended Data Fig. 3), it has been suggested that the furin cleavage site in SARS-CoV-2 could originate from recombination events between SARS-CoV-2-related coronaviruses co-circulating in bats2,47, meaning that BANAL-116, BANAL-247, bat RmYN02 (ref. 2) and bat RacCS203 (ref. 3) coronaviruses may share a common history with SARS-CoV-2. Alternatively, the furin cleavage site could have been acquired through passages of the virus in an alternative host or during an early poorly symptomatic unreported circulation in humans. 

I indeed probably passed over that specific sentence. Thank you.

What I see here though...

"Suggests", "could be", "suggested", "could originate ", "could have been".

Meaning, this is what they think, but they dont really know. 

Quote

And once again, article. Not paper. Quite an important distinction as it illustrates conservative conspiracy over reach.

It illustrates a article doesn't need to be reviewed as much as a scholarly paper.

A paper written for a political purpose, one would hope, wouldn't be easy to publish. 

Quote

Did any of them specifically state anything about Trump himself? And if so, in what context?

Congress filed subpoenas on many of the public communitions of several of those scientists. Many stated they needed to stop the lab leak theory that Trump was suggesting. And needed to be done fast.

Quote

The fact that there's controversy over the proximal origin article, is illustrative of just how stupid and ignorant your politicians are

The subpoenaed documents aren't lies. The controversy is well founded. 

Quote

Hard proof of initial outbreak which is a specific indicator of origin.

Only proves a geographic location on a specific time frame. Proves zero of the origin.

Quote

Hard proof that an ancestor exists in the wild quite capable of evolving in an intermediate host. And samples at WIV are a fraction of what actually exists in nature. Look goc dictates natural origin.

So,could happen again at any moment? Happened twice in a couple weeks, in Wuhan, right?

Quote

No humans in the area full time, your photos illustrate that. Samples were taken from cages. Humans aren't caged at the market and there no good reason to think an animal living in a cage is less likely to deposit a virus than an infrequent visitor. Short duration vicinity isn't illustrated to be particularly transmissive. Over fifteen minutes the risk begins to rise.

Full time? Only takes a big sneeze to spread Covid19 onto a cage, or surface. People did work there. They fed, and sold, the animals. Enough that THEY could catch it. But NOT enough to put down a positive sample? Come on. That's weak.

How did the 80% of samples not at an animal booth get there? People walking around the market carrying a puking raccoon dog?

Quote

No. The samples collected are direct evidence that Covid was definitely in the wet market and that the market is a perfect incubator and spreader situation. 

All that proves is the pandemic started there. Proves zero about where virus originated.

Quote

You have said this before and did not answer when I asked what evidence there is of a precursor virus at WIV or evidence or a biosecurity breach.

It's in the FBI, and CIA, reports. Examples exist.

Quote

What money?

Less trade, by a long shot, crippling the retail sector, workers dying, America made the most money through the pharmaceutical sector. Isn't that how the bad guy scenario tends to work? Poison someone then offer the antidote for blackmail or to look good? They did America's big pharma a favour for what reason exactly? 

I know you are trying to make a point. And your reading comprehension level isn't that bad.

A "leak" is not on purpose. Research brings in money. The research they did for the US, they got paid well for.

Only truely off the edge CTers think China would do this to themselves.

Quote

We do know fort Detrick did have a lab leak in 2019. There's no doubt it would be beneficial to plant the virus near a virus centre and drop a few hints to point at a lab leak.

The next virus that shows up and kills millions, and started at a Ft Detrick Burger King, I'll be screaming to investigate the labs there.

Quote

Has it happened before ? Swine flu, bird flu, camel flu are all SARS virus that have happened before through zoonosis and are similar enough to have provided base groundwork for mRNA vaccines that eventually brought Covid 19 under control. How's that not a previous example?

And what do those have in common? The animal intermediary was identified immediately. And the virus that had made the leap identified immediately. 

Here we got nothing. No intermediate animal. No intermediate virus.

Quote

And again, I've shown above that RatG13 and the BANAL variants are all possible ancestors of SARS-2. The spike protein developing on the intermediary hosts to be more compatible with the ACE2 receptor. They hold the same genetic code and are undoubtedly related. SARS-2 is likely a combination of them.

So, if the scientists at WIV had a bunch of raccoon dogs, or, more likely, tissue cultures from raccoon dogs, the virus might just evolve there on its own?

If the virus could evolve in the "wild", it could evolve in a lab setting also. Especially if being watched. And cultured over and over. It's simple Mendel fast genetic evolution.

Quote

Proof that it happened? What do you mean? There are viruses known globally that are described in that very paper. It's not a theory, it's history.

Proof. You know. The intermediate virus. The intermediate animal. Showing how a bat from one cave 1500 km away got its virus to bats outside Wuhan.

Quote

Yes, as far as I know RaTG13 was there. It cannot be modified into Covid 19. I've already given you the paper on why twice now!

And as I said before. The article was written, and based off information, that later was shown to nor be strictly fact.

Quote

There's a historical record inclusive of international scientists that have been there over the last few years and right up until December 2019.

There's medical journal articles saying WIV did research at containment levels that would be insufficient in the rest of the world.

Quote

Yes and they did and it confirms that sars and Covid variants are rife in the country. Likely to be literally thousands of variants. In nature.

And yet the intermediate animal is still unknown. The intermediate virus, unknown. Where the intermediate animal contracted the virus, unknown. Just a lot of "maybe", "likely", "possibly".

[+joc]

On 1/30/2025 at 7:42 PM, psyche101 said:

I challenge you to pick out anything I have posted that is BS and dot point it. 

...everything...

[psyche101]

On 2/4/2025 at 5:57 PM, DieChecker said:

Well, didn't you say you were a layman too?

Yes, that's my point. You're just making up stuff for me to actually hunt down the facts and refute what the best people in the medical profession already know and have summarised for us. A wild goose chase. 

What is the point in that? Do you really think such basic ideas aren't well behind people that know more than both of us together ever will? 

On 2/4/2025 at 5:57 PM, DieChecker said:

It's true I don't know much about nucleotides, but I do understand politics and cover ups, and when a nation goes the wrong way. It's clear WIV had the training and the equipment, and the motive.

No that's not clear at all. The way America is acting is more like a cover up. The constant insistent forcing of a lab leak idea also looks a lot like blatantly redirecting focus to cast blame. It's all propoganda. I just don't get why America sees itself as superior to China in this regard. Both are as untrustworthy as each other. Particularly so with your dodgy new president and his broligarchy who stated unfounded rumours based on racist tropes to begin with. 

On 2/4/2025 at 5:57 PM, DieChecker said:

Here is a good run down of the lab leak evidence.

https://www.firstpost.com/world/5-years-later-smoking-gun-points-to-chinese-wuhan-lab-in-search-of-covid-19-origin-13848124.html#goog_rewarded

Again you offer a link with no evidence and suspicion of suspicion. America looks as guilty as China recasting focus. 

To make this easier, and fairer on me, please simply take the relevant information and dot point it. Namely,

1-Proof of an actual precursor virus at WIV before the outbreak and

2-Any actual proof of a physical biosecurity breach at WIV. 

They need to be established to take the lab leak idea beyond one of many hypothetical scenarios. 

COVID-19 has a defined epicenter. It has historical relatives, it is native to the region and illustrates natural genetic zoonosis origin and was found in an environment conducive to breeding. That's much more information supporting natural origin than your link can provide in total regarding the lab leak idea. 

On 2/4/2025 at 5:57 PM, DieChecker said:

Thank you.

Please explain.

On 2/4/2025 at 5:57 PM, DieChecker said:

Indeed seems someone has said so at least once. 

Seems that crossover people are saying could have been any of thousands of viruses. Because they dont really know, do they?

I'd say they do but don't have the actual live evidence to demonstrate it physically. Like ebola. We know it wasn't from a panda don't we? It can't be just anything. Pangolins have been ruled less likely and raccoon dogs are the most likely.

It's like the Higgs boson. Even the great Lawrence Krauss called himself sceptical of it's existence untill it was physically demonstrated. Or abiogenesis. Professionals know what happened but can't state it's fact untill demonstrated. 

On 2/4/2025 at 5:57 PM, DieChecker said:

I thought those were the same. I'll use ancestor going forword, if that's your preference. 

? 

Why would you think that? You wouldn't if we were discussing human evolution. You wouldn't call Australopithecus afarensis a precursor to homo sapiens but you would for homo erectus wouldn't you. 

On 2/4/2025 at 5:57 PM, DieChecker said:

Thank you.

Please explain.

On 2/4/2025 at 5:57 PM, DieChecker said:

An animal we still haven't found. Not found, though hundreds, or thousands, of animals were tested.

I do believe you will find it was 28 mammals and 334 bats. 

And they did have alpha and beta corona viruses related to SARS-2 that are actually likely precursor strains 

https://academic.oup.com/view-large/figure/363825094/veac046f1.tif

 

On 2/4/2025 at 5:57 PM, DieChecker said:

"Likely", "Suggests". Than the opinion based on that maybe, that "strongly supports". When it does not "strongly" support. It merely suggests.

I indeed probably passed over that specific sentence. Thank you.

What I see here though...

"Suggests", "could be", "suggested", "could originate ", "could have been".

Meaning, this is what they think, but they dont really know 

Actually no. It's exactly what it says. Most likely. You're trying to tone it down. That's like saying a scientific theory is "just a theory" and as likely to be wrong as it is right 

We both know that's not the case. Most likely is the most logical answer regarding the facts at hand. It's how science works. Ready to correct itself in the face of new evidence when we can't fulfil demonstration upon demand. We have the predictability part already sorted. Half the requirement. 

On 2/4/2025 at 5:57 PM, DieChecker said:

It illustrates a article doesn't need to be reviewed as much as a scholarly paper.

A paper written for a political purpose, one would hope, wouldn't be easy to publish. 

However it's only for political purpose that it's been touted as a paper. 

I reject that it's aim is political purpose. There's science involved. Personal opinion on a fools handling of a serious situation are allowed. 

On 2/4/2025 at 5:57 PM, DieChecker said:

Congress filed subpoenas on many of the public communitions of several of those scientists. Many stated they needed to stop the lab leak theory that Trump was suggesting. And needed to be done fast.

No that's not quite right. The lab leak accusation and Trump isn't specifically targeted. And it was in order to try to keep lines of communication with china open, which America suspiciously thwarted. 

On 2/4/2025 at 5:57 PM, DieChecker said:

The subpoenaed documents aren't lies. The controversy is well founded. 

And I've asked you to post specific examples from them outlining a political attack on Trump or anything outside of personal opinion being discussed purposefully outside of the public eye to avoid speculation of hypothesizing ideas. 

All of which were simply process of elimination steps in the early stages of a crisis. 

Are you able to do so? 

On 2/4/2025 at 5:57 PM, DieChecker said:

Only proves a geographic location on a specific time frame. Proves zero of the origin.

Yes, it could have originated 100 kms away carried in by a farmer. But there's absolutely zero proof of that isn't there? 

That's why is specifically stated "indicated" and that's exactly what it is. As no evidence to the contrary possibilities exist, it becomes the lead runner and most likely option. Show it likely originated elsewhere and there's an argument. 

On 2/4/2025 at 5:57 PM, DieChecker said:

So,could happen again at any moment? Happened twice in a couple weeks, in Wuhan, right?

What, jump from wild to humans? Yes, and it has. Mers, bird flu, swine flu etc. All related. 

On 2/4/2025 at 5:57 PM, DieChecker said:

Full time? Only takes a big sneeze to spread Covid19 onto a cage, or surface. People did work there. They fed, and sold, the animals. Enough that THEY could catch it. But NOT enough to put down a positive sample? Come on. That's weak.

Weak? You must know room size and ventilation are critical factors with regards to transmissibility. A blanket statement such as yours is inaccurate. Our government stated that up to fifteen minutes in a room with somebody with covid 19 in a 24 hour period was considered safe. I trust my government more than yours. 

On 2/4/2025 at 5:57 PM, DieChecker said:

How did the 80% of samples not at an animal booth get there? People walking around the market carrying a puking raccoon dog?

You know it's an airborne virus right? 

On 2/4/2025 at 5:57 PM, DieChecker said:

All that proves is the pandemic started there. Proves zero about where virus originated.

I said above sure that's possible. 

Where's better evidence than the wet market exist? 

On 2/4/2025 at 5:57 PM, DieChecker said:

It's in the FBI, and CIA, reports. Examples exist.

No, that's simply not true. You have posted both and I've pulled out what you called evidence and it's not evidence.

Stories like a virologist died by violent circumstances (which can't actually be verified, it's hearsay) that some even state thrown from a building, which seems to be outright lies, is not in any way whatsoever proof that a precursor virus existed at WIV or that there was a biosecurity breach at WIV. It's just a dumb story. It's not proof of anything. 

You get that both those things are required for the lab leak idea to have legs don't you? Focus seems to be more avoiding that and filling space with thriller stories. Also suspicious. 

I've challenged you above to dot point actual evidence directly regarding Wuhan. Not wild stories about how devious the Chinese are. Please include anything you can find relevant in those sham yes men reports regarding an actual biosecurity lapse or precursor virus. 

And again, RaTG13 isn't a precursor possibility. Even if the yes men at the CIA and FBI haven't read the studies the illustrate why. 

On 2/4/2025 at 5:57 PM, DieChecker said:

I know you are trying to make a point. And your reading comprehension level isn't that bad.

A "leak" is not on purpose. Research brings in money. The research they did for the US, they got paid well for.

Only truely off the edge CTers think China would do this to themselves.

How much research money are you alleging china received? If any, how would that compare to what phizer and J &J made from it? 

So if not a clandestine operation to destroy the western world, why is there no historical record of it when both our countries had scientists there for over a decade collaborating on projects? Why is there no precursor virus at Wuhan? If one did leak why didn't china simply blame some clumsy international scientist for the breach? 

That raises more questions than ot answers and again, it makes America look like it's going the cover up pointing at China. 

On 2/4/2025 at 5:57 PM, DieChecker said:

The next virus that shows up and kills millions, and started at a Ft Detrick Burger King, I'll be screaming to investigate the labs there.

Are you saying it's impossible to plant the virus in another location with the right operation? I can't say I would agree. Not to mention a frozen virus doesn't care if it's crossing ten kilometres or ten million. The frozen seafood is the fulcrum of the Chinese argument. 

Frozen meat is actually a more direct route.

On 2/4/2025 at 5:57 PM, DieChecker said:

And what do those have in common? The animal intermediary was identified immediately. And the virus that had made the leap identified immediately. 

Here we got nothing. No intermediate animal. No intermediate virus.

Not the origin animal though hey. Just like this, except there could only be two intermediary hosts. Palm civets and racoon dogs. Pangolins were discarded as a possible host early in the piece smd placed down the chain. I don't doubt that if raccoon dogs and palm civets were commonly placed like pigs and camels, the answer would also be easier to find. 

On 2/4/2025 at 5:57 PM, DieChecker said:

So, if the scientists at WIV had a bunch of raccoon dogs, or, more likely, tissue cultures from raccoon dogs, the virus might just evolve there on its own?

If the virus could evolve in the "wild", it could evolve in a lab setting also. Especially if being watched. And cultured over and over. It's simple Mendel fast genetic evolution.

It's possible with the right information. If a scientist knew which strains to culture and evolve they could theoretically culture the virus ti my knowledge which is limited. 

Consider the wild though. Hundreds of trains coexisting in natural Petrie dish conditions. That's like a thousand scientists all trying combinations in experiments to produce a more deadly strain of something that already exists in nature. 

On 2/4/2025 at 5:57 PM, DieChecker said:

Proof. You know. The intermediate virus. The intermediate animal. Showing how a bat from one cave 1500 km away got its virus to bats outside Wuhan.

You know the facts supporting natural origin already. What better proof exists that illustrates WIV is more likely? That's what's being claimed is it not? Clearly you don't challenge the facts that illustrate natural origin but employ conspiracy theories all the same. 

On 2/4/2025 at 5:57 PM, DieChecker said:

And as I said before. The article was written, and based off information, that later was shown to nor be strictly fact.

And the emails weren't claimed to be fact. The article itself is fine. It's still relevant today. 

On 2/4/2025 at 5:57 PM, DieChecker said:

There's medical journal articles saying WIV did research at containment levels that would be insufficient in the rest of the world.

There's only hearsay from disgruntled ex associates. It's not what people working there at the time report. 

On 2/4/2025 at 5:57 PM, DieChecker said:

And yet the intermediate animal is still unknown. The intermediate virus, unknown. Where the intermediate animal contracted the virus, unknown. Just a lot of "maybe", "likely", "possibly".

No, there's most likely and every actual fact in existence only supports natural origin, and the intermediate species is down to two possibilities with one being more likely. 

It's not as vague as you make out. The lab leak their is created to shift focus and lead the easily led. The only nefarious information comes from the political spectrum.