C.I.A. Now Favors Lab Leak Theory to Explain Covid’s Origins

[psyche101]

On 2/5/2025 at 8:19 AM, joc said:

...everything...

Well... look at that......

On 2/3/2025 at 12:49 AM, joc said:

I am finished with the conversation.

Two lies on the one page! 

I'm sure you can do better. 

[+joc]

4 hours ago, psyche101 said:

Well... look at that......

Two lies on the one page! 

I'm sure you can do better. 

 

[Alchopwn]

No.  This is wrong.  If you look at the timeline for COVID you will see that it'[s release coincides with the Military Games in Wuhan.  Multiple foreign athletes who were competing in the games were deliberately infected in order to paralyze their armies before China launched their invasion of Taiwan.  The Chinese Communist Party had also released a conspiracy theory paper entitled "Virus Warfare" The Unnatural Origins of SARS and new species of Man-Made Viruses as Genetic Bioweapons which insisted that SARS was a bioweapon attack by the USA on China.  Their response to this conspiracy theory "damage" that China had received was to weaponize COVID.  When US servicemen who had been athletes at the Wuhan Military Games were hospitalized at Fort Dettrick, and the USA came to China with a "please explain", China insisted that patient zero was a US serviceman, suggesting that the USA had launched the COVID "attack", when in fact this was the "smoking gun" that China had infected the guy, and knew exactly who patient zero was.  

For this reason, the USA shouldn't be putting tariffs on China but should place an international boycott on Chinese Goods until China pays reparations of $2 million dollars per non-Chinese victims of COVID across the world, to go to the affected families.

[+DieChecker]

On 2/8/2025 at 3:46 AM, psyche101 said:

Yes, that's my point. You're just making up stuff for me to actually hunt down the facts and refute what the best people in the medical profession already know and have summarised for us. A wild goose chase. 

Meh. All those summaries are from 2020 and 2021. New information can come out, and has.

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What is the point in that? Do you really think such basic ideas aren't well behind people that know more than both of us together ever will?  

And yet you presume to know more about spying, and the workings of the CCP, and what went on at WIV than the CIA, and FBI?

With likely hundreds of spies in China, and access to nearly every document that ever existed, but... you can tell what happened more than they can?

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Again you offer a link with no evidence and suspicion of suspicion. America looks as guilty as China recasting focus. 

To make this easier, and fairer on me, please simply take the relevant information and dot point it. Namely,

1-Proof of an actual precursor virus at WIV before the outbreak and

2-Any actual proof of a physical biosecurity breach at WIV. 

They need to be established to take the lab leak idea beyond one of many hypothetical scenarios. 

COVID-19 has a defined epicenter. It has historical relatives, it is native to the region and illustrates natural genetic zoonosis origin and was found in an environment conducive to breeding. That's much more information supporting natural origin than your link can provide in total regarding the lab leak idea

Because there is no evidence. Only two theories with varying supporting background info. We don't have an animal with the virus, and we don't have a lab sample either. 

An epicentre proves nothing.

As to lab leak proof you suggest. WHO went to the lab once. Their stated goal didnt include audits of samples, or documention. Their requests (dozens of them) to return and do so were denied. 

No audits were ever done, unless by the CCP, and they're not sharing.

Ultimately CCP controls the lab. All data came through the CCP.

You say we should trust them, but woukd you trust Trump if he said he didn't cook his books? Audits are what detected his felony accounting. Yet you say trust the CCP...

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Please explain.

Thank you. It's when someone honestly answers the question. It's polite to recognize such and thank them. Alternatively can indicate  admitting to being wrong.

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I'd say they do but don't have the actual live evidence to demonstrate it physically. Like ebola. We know it wasn't from a panda don't we? It can't be just anything. Pangolins have been ruled less likely and raccoon dogs are the most likely.

But my statement is still correct. They dint really know. It's mostly "maybe?".

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Why would you think that? You wouldn't if we were discussing human evolution. You wouldn't call Australopithecus afarensis a precursor to homo sapiens but you would for homo erectus wouldn't you.

Yes, I see your point. I concede this.

A precursor would be the immediate ancestor. While one of the local viruses would be a ancestor of many generations removed. I was using the word in too broad a way.

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I do believe you will find it was 28 mammals and 334 bats.

So I was right. Hundreds.

Bats are mammals BTW. 🙃

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And they did have alpha and beta corona viruses related to SARS-2 that are actually likely precursor strains 

https://academic.oup.com/view-large/figure/363825094/veac046f1.tif

But nothing with a furin cleavage site. So no smoking gun. Just more "Maybe?".

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Actually no. It's exactly what it says. Most likely. You're trying to tone it down. That's like saying a scientific theory is "just a theory" and as likely to be wrong as it is right 

Yes, but "most likely" doesn't necessarily translate to 100%, or 98%, or even 75%.

You've been suggesting 100%.

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And I've asked you to post specific examples from them outlining a political attack on Trump or anything outside of personal opinion being discussed purposefully outside of the public eye to avoid speculation of hypothesizing ideas.

So are you saying personal opinions can't bias a scientist?

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Yes, it could have originated 100 kms away carried in by a farmer. But there's absolutely zero proof of that isn't there? 

That's why is specifically stated "indicated" and that's exactly what it is. As no evidence to the contrary possibilities exist, it becomes the lead runner and most likely option. Show it likely originated elsewhere and there's an argument. 

I'd agree it is the lead theory, but as you say... There's zero proof of origin. Only educated speculation. 

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What, jump from wild to humans? Yes, and it has. Mers, bird flu, swine flu etc. All related.

And each time it was slow to spread, and the animal quickly identified. But with Covid19...?

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You must know room size and ventilation are critical factors with regards to transmissibility.

So the Wuhan market had top notch ventilation? And you got this information from....??

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You know it's an airborne virus right?

Does aerosol dispersion leave positive test samples days later? If so, than why didn't the entire market test positive?

Doubtless the samples collected were fluid samples. As from a very sick animal.

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Where's better evidence than the wet market exist?

I think that's the point. There's no evudence at all. Only two main theories. No virus found at WIV. No virus found in the wild.

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How much research money are you alleging china received? If any, how would that compare to what phizer and J &J made from it? 

It's come out that WIV recieved at least forty million dollars in the couple years preceding the pandemic.

https://thecommunemag.com/foia-investigation-reveals-anthony-faucis-niaid-usaid-funded-high-risk-coronavirus-research-by-wuhans-patient-zero/

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Why is there no precursor virus at Wuhan?

Because no audit was allowed?

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 If one did leak why didn't china simply blame some clumsy international scientist for the breach?

Because local Chinese officials are known for being Loyal to the State, and not overly imaginative, or bright. Also overly proud.

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Are you saying it's impossible to plant the virus in another location with the right operation?

No. But if you're going that far, might as well say the US also removed the animals from the market, and made sure their Patient Zero spread it around. It's CT talk. Almost entirely.

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Not the origin animal though hey. 

Except what I said is true. In those cases the intermediary animal was immediately identified, and confirmed to carry the virus. Haven't happened with Covid19. If it did, there wouldn't be anyone entertaining the Lab Leak theory. 

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It's possible with the right information. If a scientist knew which strains to culture and evolve they could theoretically culture the virus ti my knowledge which is limited. 

Consider the wild though. Hundreds of trains coexisting in natural Petrie dish conditions. That's like a thousand scientists all trying combinations in

Thank you for at least that admission. 

I'd agree it could have developed in the wild. It's simply that there's no evidence it did so. There's many "maybes".

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You know the facts supporting natural origin already. What better proof exists that illustrates WIV is more likely? That's what's being claimed is it not? Clearly you don't challenge the facts that illustrate natural origin but employ conspiracy theories all the same.

Read that link in my previous post. It illustrates why WIV should be suspect. 

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And the emails weren't claimed to be fact. The article itself is fine. It's still relevant today. 

I'll post another post on this. I still disagree. 

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There's only hearsay from disgruntled ex associates. It's not what people working there at the time report.

I'd still disagree. 

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No, there's most likely and every actual fact in existence only supports natural origin, and the intermediate species is down to two possibilities with one being more likely.

Agreed. One more likely and the other somewhat less so. As I've said for years. 

[+DieChecker]

On 2/8/2025 at 3:46 AM, psyche101 said:

And the emails weren't claimed to be fact. The article itself is fine. It's still relevant today. 

So you keep posting the same paper, yeah? From 2020 May, I think.

Virus couldn't be engineered, because an expert said so.

Because it would have left markers. Except the process to not leave markers existed.

And was taught to the researchers at WIV.

But they couldn't have put in a furin cleavage site anyway.

Except WIV already had a decade before. 

But they didn't have the training to do both at the same time.

Except they did. EcoHealth Alliance proposed this in 2018 (Project DEFUSE) to the US governments DARPA department. It was rejected, but EcoHealth went forward with it at WIV anyway. 

Thus, the statement it's not possible to create the Covid19 virus is false. The researchers at WIV had a clearly laid out plan, and training on how to create a virus exactly matching the one that spread around the Wuhan market in December 2019.

Thus my statements the article is out of date.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EcoHealth_Alliance

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One proposed alteration was to modify bat coronaviruses to insert a cleavage site for the Furin protease at the S1/S2 junction of the spike (S) viral protein. Another part of the grant aimed to create noninfectious protein-based vaccines containing just the spike protein of dangerous coronaviruses. These vaccines would then be administered to bats in caves in southern China to help prevent future outbreaks.

How far is it from vaccinating bats, to saving time by vaccinating market workers?

Edited February 13 by DieChecker