12 labours of Hercules correspond with the zodiac?

[Unusual Tournament]

Found this on X - don’t agree with it but thought it interesting and amusing 

 

[Ell]

 

Yes.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

My first question would be about what the Greecian zodiac looked like. 
https://greek-myth.fandom.com/wiki/Zodiac_Signs which directly mentions Heracles in some of the zodiacal origins. 

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

Slaying the Nemean lion - Leo (fairly self evidence) 

Slaying the nine-headed Lernaean Hydra - cancer (Hera sent crabs to harry Heracles when fighting the Hydra) 

Capturing the Ceryneian Hind - Libra (the fate of the hind was dictated by Heracles balancing twin oaths - one to capture the hind, the other to set it free). 

Capturing the Erymanthian Boar - Sagittarius (directly connected to the myth, due to the death of Chiron, who was a centaur) 

Cleaning the Augean stables in a single day - Pscies (Heracles reroutes two rivers to cleanse the stables) 

Slaying the Stymphalian birds - Aires (the birds were sacred to Ares) 

Capturing the Cretan Bull - Taurus (again, reasonably self evident) 

Stealing the Mares of Diomedes - Scorpio (for …, reasons. The reason being I had no idea and Scorpio was the only one I hadn’t assigned to another labour).

Obtaining the belt of Hippolyta, queen of the Amazon - Virgo (because they’re virgins? Because Hera said Heracles was going to take everyone’s virginity? I’m spitballing here)). 

Obtaining the cattle of the three-bodied giant Geryon - Capricorn (a sign of leadership, and Heracles shepherded or led the cattle) 

Stealing three of the golden apples of the Hesperides - Aquarius (water bearer, wherein Heracles bared the whole sky while Atlas fetched the apples)

Capturing and bringing back Cerberus - Gemini (Heracles rescues two men from Hades (another spitballed guess)). 

 

you’ll note that the order of the labours does not match the order of the zodiac.

Edited January 27 by Sir Wearer of Hats

[+OverSword]

33 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Obtaining the belt of Hippolyta, queen of the Amazon - Virgo (because they’re virgins? Because Hera said Heracles was going to take everyone’s virginity? I’m spitballing here)). 

 

😄

[Kenemet]

3 hours ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

My first question would be about what the Greecian zodiac looked like. 
https://greek-myth.fandom.com/wiki/Zodiac_Signs which directly mentions Heracles in some of the zodiacal origins. 

An excellent question, and one we can answer by looking at Egypt!

Wikipedia has this to say: Hellenistic astrology derived in part from Babylonian and Egyptian astrology.^[28] Horoscopic astrology first appeared in Ptolemaic Egypt (305 BC–30 BC). The Dendera zodiac, a relief dating to c. 50 BC, is the first known depiction of the classical zodiac of twelve signs. (source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zodiac)

 

There is, however, a teeny problem here.... this is NOT the "zodiac" associated with the time that the Labors were written (about 300 years previous to that, and attributed to Peisander https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labours_of_Hercules)  

So, when the tales were composed, there was no such thing as the "zodiac."  Eudoxus, who was born about 390 BC, standardized the names and constellations... before then, the star groups might have looked different and had different names.  See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eudoxus_of_Cnidus

So, that's two strikes against the notion.  There's other non-matches to the idea -- Taurus was never associated with a boar.  Its earliest written association is the Mesopotamian "Bull of Heaven" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurus_(astrology)

So I'd put the "Labors" idea firmly in the "interesting, but no" category.

[The Puzzler]

11 hours ago, Unusual Tournament said:

Found this on X - don’t agree with it but thought it interesting and amusing 

 

Okely dokely…I say yes. Since I advocate mythology is  in the stars…

[The Puzzler]

5 hours ago, Kenemet said:

An excellent question, and one we can answer by looking at Egypt!

Wikipedia has this to say: Hellenistic astrology derived in part from Babylonian and Egyptian astrology.^[28] Horoscopic astrology first appeared in Ptolemaic Egypt (305 BC–30 BC). The Dendera zodiac, a relief dating to c. 50 BC, is the first known depiction of the classical zodiac of twelve signs. (source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zodiac)

 

There is, however, a teeny problem here.... this is NOT the "zodiac" associated with the time that the Labors were written (about 300 years previous to that, and attributed to Peisander https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labours_of_Hercules)  

So, when the tales were composed, there was no such thing as the "zodiac."  Eudoxus, who was born about 390 BC, standardized the names and constellations... before then, the star groups might have looked different and had different names.  See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eudoxus_of_Cnidus

So, that's two strikes against the notion.  There's other non-matches to the idea -- Taurus was never associated with a boar.  Its earliest written association is the Mesopotamian "Bull of Heaven" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurus_(astrology)

So I'd put the "Labors" idea firmly in the "interesting, but no" category.

Good points.

But it says Sagittarius was the boar…or did I miss something? Even though Sag is not a boar also…is Cnidus saying this, I think he errr’ed.

My daughter is a Sag and a Chinese pig…but yeah, I know, that doesn’t count….I don’t see Taurus as a boar…ever.

Tor in any language is bull. But I guess it could look like a boar, to people who didn’t know bulls…but I think it came from known Pythagorean knowledge way before…

As for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eudoxus_of_Cnidus

He was a student of Archytas and Plato.

Plato, like.

I even think the whole Trojan War story is a telling of the zodiac movements.

Edited January 28 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

Added my edit to above post.

Edited January 28 by The Puzzler

[Kenemet]

33 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

Good points.

But it says Sagittarius was the boar…or did I miss something? Even though Sag is not a boar also…is Cnidus saying this, I think he errr’ed.

My daughter is a Sag and a Chinese pig…but yeah, I know, that doesn’t count….I don’t see Taurus as a boar…ever.

Tor in any language is bull. But I guess it could look like a boar, to people who didn’t know bulls…but I think it came from known Pythagorean knowledge way before…

As for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eudoxus_of_Cnidus

He was a student of Archytas and Plato.

Plato, like.

I even think the whole Trojan War story is a telling of the zodiac movements.

Argh -- good catch!  Yeah, "boar" was the centaur.  Got distracted by phone call while I was typing.

There are several other non-matches:  Lady Justice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Justice is Roman and not Greek and was introduced by Emperor Augustus, some 400+ years after the original myth.

Aries is based on an actual myth about a ram and is not related in any way to the god of war: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aries_(astrology)

And really, the originator has nothing at all for Scorpio, Gemini, Aquarius, and Capricorn.

 

I don't think the Trojan War story is a match, either... I don't see it being suggested by anyone.  Got an explanation or link?

[The Puzzler]

20 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

Argh -- good catch!  Yeah, "boar" was the centaur.  Got distracted by phone call while I was typing.

There are several other non-matches:  Lady Justice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Justice is Roman and not Greek and was introduced by Emperor Augustus, some 400+ years after the original myth.

Aries is based on an actual myth about a ram and is not related in any way to the god of war: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aries_(astrology)

And really, the originator has nothing at all for Scorpio, Gemini, Aquarius, and Capricorn.

 

I don't think the Trojan War story is a match, either... I don't see it being suggested by anyone.  Got an explanation or link?

(Inserts thumbs up emoji) 

No on the Trojan War but I did read an article about it being star movements once from around 8500BC but I can’t find it.

No, it’s just a hunch tbh. I don’t see it being anything else…we are just not aware of it yet….imo.

It’s possible Libra wasn’t in the zodiac until later, as an offshoot of the myth of Virgo, Astraea who left her scales of justice in the sky…Libra and Virgo are one..

But zodiacs change over time…

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=Opiochus&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-au&client=safari

Edited January 28 by The Puzzler

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

That alignment was just me, trying to make things fit. 

[Alchopwn]

13 hours ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Cleaning the Augean stables in a single day - Pisces (Heracles reroutes two rivers to cleanse the stables) 

Given that we are presently in the Age of Pisces, this likely explains why everything is a sh!t show atm.

[The Puzzler]

23 minutes ago, Alchopwn said:

Given that we are presently in the Age of Pisces, this likely explains why everything is a sh!t show atm.

I know, both my parents are Pisces….(help me)

[The Puzzler]

It’s a very good alignment..and no reason, I see, that it might not be true…..or something like it.

Dating Lascaux Art by Precession

https://www.ancient-origins.net/ancient-places-europe/dating-lascaux-art-0017021

Edited January 28 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

Then again, I think the twin pillars at Gobekli Tepe are Heracles….so what do I know…

Edited January 28 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

5 hours ago, Kenemet said:

Argh -- good catch!  Yeah, "boar" was the centaur.  Got distracted by phone call while I was typing.

There are several other non-matches:  Lady Justice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Justice is Roman and not Greek and was introduced by Emperor Augustus, some 400+ years after the original myth.

Aries is based on an actual myth about a ram and is not related in any way to the god of war: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aries_(astrology)

And really, the originator has nothing at all for Scorpio, Gemini, Aquarius, and Capricorn.

 

I don't think the Trojan War story is a match, either... I don't see it being suggested by anyone.  Got an explanation or link?

I did find this…on Tumblr…lol Paris was definitely a Libra….

The Zodiac Signs as Warriors from "The Iliad"/Trojan War

ARIES: Achilles –Demigod & Main Hero of “The Iliad”

–Best & Fastest Greek Warrior (had divine assistance)

–Powerful, Implacable, Violent, Noble, Devoted, Gifted

TAURUS: Big Aias/Ajax

–Cousin to Achilles & King of Salamis

–Physically Strongest Greek Warrior (had divine assistance)

–Stable, Jealous, Dedicated, Slow, Protective, Can Snap in Temper

GEMINI: Little Aias/Ajax

–King of Locris & Companion of Big Aias

–Second Fastest Warrior of Greeks (had divine assistance)

–Quick, Staunch, Volatile, Devious, Multiple Personalities, Energetic

CANCER: Aeneas

–Trojan Demigod & Hector’s Brother-in-Law

–Hero of “The Aeneid” & Legendary Founder of Rome (had divine assistance)

–Pious, Family-Oriented, Moody, Nostalgic, Defensive, Committed

LEO: Agamemnon

–Greek Commander-in-Chief & Richest King of Mycenae

–Best “Natural Warrior” (only one to never need direct physical help from Gods in battle but his prowess can almost match Achilles’)

–Mighty, Proud, Generous, Egotistical, Competitive, Destructive

VIRGO: Odysseus

–Greek King of Ithaca & Best Councillor/Tactician

–Hero of “The Odyssey” (had divine assistance)

–Clever, Practical, Sneaky, Critical, Resourceful, Manipulative

LIBRA: Paris

–Hector’s Younger Brother & Prince of Troy (had divine assistance)

– Best Archer & Most Handsome of Trojans

–Beautiful, Reckless, Loving, Passive, Diplomatic, Lazy

SCORPIO: Diomedes

–King of Argos & Hero of “Sons of the Seven Against Thebes” War

–Only Hero to Wound Two Gods, Aphrodite & Ares (had divine assistance)

–Brave, Loyal, Impulsive, Ruthless, Industrious, Stealthy

SAGITTARIUS: Teucer

–Big Ajax’s Half-Brother, but Cousin to Hector of Troy (on mother’s side)

–Best Greek Archer (had some divine assistance)

–Blunt, Skilled, Tempermental, Faithful, Restless, Adventurous

CAPRICORN: Hector

–Heir & Best Warrior of Troy

–Anti-Hero of “The Iliad” (had divine assistance)

–Dutiful, Pessimistic, Ambitious, Ill-Fated, Steadfast, Relentless

AQUARIUS: Helenus

–Trojan Prince & Brother of Hector, Paris, & Cassandra

–Has Prophetic Powers & One of Few Trojan Survivors

–Humane, Far-Sighted, Detached, Ingenious, Rebellious

PISCES: Patroclus

–Achilles’ Companion/Probable Lover

–Best of Myrmidons (soldiers of Achilles) (had some divine assistance)

–Gentle, Emotional, Intuitive, Self-Destructive, Underestimated

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 28 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

18 hours ago, Unusual Tournament said:

Found this on X - don’t agree with it but thought it interesting and amusing 

 

Everything numbering 12 has been suspect of having connections with the 12 signs of the zodiak.

Like the 12 apostles and the 12 tribes of Israel.

[Abramelin]

9 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

Okely dokely…I say yes. Since I advocate mythology is  in the stars…

Mythology was projected on the stars.

[Kenemet]

13 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

I did find this…on Tumblr…lol Paris was definitely a Libra….

The Zodiac Signs as Warriors from "The Iliad"/Trojan War

ARIES: Achilles –Demigod & Main Hero of “The Iliad”

–Best & Fastest Greek Warrior (had divine assistance)

–Powerful, Implacable, Violent, Noble, Devoted, Gifted

TAURUS: Big Aias/Ajax

–Cousin to Achilles & King of Salamis

–Physically Strongest Greek Warrior (had divine assistance)

–Stable, Jealous, Dedicated, Slow, Protective, Can Snap in Temper

GEMINI: Little Aias/Ajax

–King of Locris & Companion of Big Aias

–Second Fastest Warrior of Greeks (had divine assistance)

–Quick, Staunch, Volatile, Devious, Multiple Personalities, Energetic

CANCER: Aeneas

–Trojan Demigod & Hector’s Brother-in-Law

–Hero of “The Aeneid” & Legendary Founder of Rome (had divine assistance)

–Pious, Family-Oriented, Moody, Nostalgic, Defensive, Committed

LEO: Agamemnon

–Greek Commander-in-Chief & Richest King of Mycenae

–Best “Natural Warrior” (only one to never need direct physical help from Gods in battle but his prowess can almost match Achilles’)

–Mighty, Proud, Generous, Egotistical, Competitive, Destructive

VIRGO: Odysseus

–Greek King of Ithaca & Best Councillor/Tactician

–Hero of “The Odyssey” (had divine assistance)

–Clever, Practical, Sneaky, Critical, Resourceful, Manipulative

LIBRA: Paris

–Hector’s Younger Brother & Prince of Troy (had divine assistance)

– Best Archer & Most Handsome of Trojans

–Beautiful, Reckless, Loving, Passive, Diplomatic, Lazy

SCORPIO: Diomedes

–King of Argos & Hero of “Sons of the Seven Against Thebes” War

–Only Hero to Wound Two Gods, Aphrodite & Ares (had divine assistance)

–Brave, Loyal, Impulsive, Ruthless, Industrious, Stealthy

SAGITTARIUS: Teucer

–Big Ajax’s Half-Brother, but Cousin to Hector of Troy (on mother’s side)

–Best Greek Archer (had some divine assistance)

–Blunt, Skilled, Tempermental, Faithful, Restless, Adventurous

CAPRICORN: Hector

–Heir & Best Warrior of Troy

–Anti-Hero of “The Iliad” (had divine assistance)

–Dutiful, Pessimistic, Ambitious, Ill-Fated, Steadfast, Relentless

AQUARIUS: Helenus

–Trojan Prince & Brother of Hector, Paris, & Cassandra

–Has Prophetic Powers & One of Few Trojan Survivors

–Humane, Far-Sighted, Detached, Ingenious, Rebellious

PISCES: Patroclus

–Achilles’ Companion/Probable Lover

–Best of Myrmidons (soldiers of Achilles) (had some divine assistance)

–Gentle, Emotional, Intuitive, Self-Destructive, Underestimated

 

Cute, and amusing -- but a stretch for me (Gemini should be two people, and what happened to Helen and Menelaus -- the whole reason the war started?)  No Athena, Aphrodite, Ares?  No Priam (who ALMOST survived the war and was in all the books) or Cassandra or Laocoon or Diomedes...etc?)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trojan_War

It's a cute speculation, but I think the originator is kinda stretching things (because almost all the men fit the "Brave, Loyal, Impulsive, Ruthless, Industrious" label.  Maybe not the "sneaky" bit, though.  That's most DEFINITELY Odysseus!

Edited January 29 by Kenemet

[Unusual Tournament]

Part 2

[Kenemet]

4 hours ago, Unusual Tournament said:

Part 2

Oof... the writing seems really disjointed!

Those arguments are, on the whole, far less convincing than the first part (which wasn't terribly convincing in the first place.)

[Unusual Tournament]

5 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

Oof... the writing seems really disjointed!

Those arguments are, on the whole, far less convincing than the first part (which wasn't terribly convincing in the first place.)

Relax, you’ve endured worse 

[The Puzzler]

It’s not about the signs of the zodiac in a year,  the topic states the Labours incorporate a Great Year…

 

”An astrological age is a time period which, according to astrology, parallels major changes in the development of human society, culture, history, and politics. There are twelve astrological ages corresponding to the twelve zodiacal signs in western astrology. One cycle of the twelve astrological ages is called a Great Year, comprising 25,772 solar years, at the end of which another cycle begins.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrological_age

More like this..

Age	Start Date	End Date	Typical astrological associations
Age of Libra	15150 BCE	13000 BC	Lascaux cave paintings, Settlement of the Americas
Age of Virgo	13000 BCE	10750 BCE	End of the Last Glacial Maximum, beginning of Pre-Pottery Neolithic
Age of Leo	10750 BCE	8600 BCE	Pre-Pottery Neolithic A and beginning of B
Age of Cancer	8600 BCE	6450 BCE	Pre-Pottery Neolithic B, beginning of urbanization
Age of Gemini	6450 BCE	4300 BCE	Pre-Pottery Neolithic C, Late Neolithic, beginning of the Chalcolithic
Age of Taurus	4300 BCE	2150 BCE	Invention of writing, the Bronze Age and the rise of its associated civilizations, such as Sumer, Ancient Egypt, and the Indus Valley civilization, near-Eastern bull cults
Age of Aries	2150 BCE	1 CE	The Akkadian Empire, the Vedic period in India, onset of the Iron Age, Ancient Greece, Phoenician Empire, Ancient Israel, classical antiquity and the Axial Age, rise of Buddhism
Age of Pisces	1 CE	2150 CE	Rise of the Roman Empire, Christianity (symbolised early on as the ichthys), and Islam
Age of Aquarius	2150 CE	4300	Predicted to feature humanitarianism and innovations in communication and travel

[Abramelin]

8 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

It’s not about the signs of the zodiac in a year,  the topic states the Labours incorporate a Great Year…

 

”An astrological age is a time period which, according to astrology, parallels major changes in the development of human society, culture, history, and politics. There are twelve astrological ages corresponding to the twelve zodiacal signs in western astrology. One cycle of the twelve astrological ages is called a Great Year, comprising 25,772 solar years, at the end of which another cycle begins.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrological_age

More like this..

Age	Start Date	End Date	Typical astrological associations
Age of Libra	15150 BCE	13000 BC	Lascaux cave paintings, Settlement of the Americas
Age of Virgo	13000 BCE	10750 BCE	End of the Last Glacial Maximum, beginning of Pre-Pottery Neolithic
Age of Leo	10750 BCE	8600 BCE	Pre-Pottery Neolithic A and beginning of B
Age of Cancer	8600 BCE	6450 BCE	Pre-Pottery Neolithic B, beginning of urbanization
Age of Gemini	6450 BCE	4300 BCE	Pre-Pottery Neolithic C, Late Neolithic, beginning of the Chalcolithic
Age of Taurus	4300 BCE	2150 BCE	Invention of writing, the Bronze Age and the rise of its associated civilizations, such as Sumer, Ancient Egypt, and the Indus Valley civilization, near-Eastern bull cults
Age of Aries	2150 BCE	1 CE	The Akkadian Empire, the Vedic period in India, onset of the Iron Age, Ancient Greece, Phoenician Empire, Ancient Israel, classical antiquity and the Axial Age, rise of Buddhism
Age of Pisces	1 CE	2150 CE	Rise of the Roman Empire, Christianity (symbolised early on as the ichthys), and Islam
Age of Aquarius	2150 CE	4300	Predicted to feature humanitarianism and innovations in communication and travel

These 'astrological ages' are a very modern concept.