Europe must respond to Trump's cowardice

[pellinore]

Emmanuel Macron has described Donald Trump’s return as an “electroshock” that should force Europe to secure its own future as well as Ukraine’s.

In an interview at the Élysée Palace shortly after Trump agreed with Vladimir Putin of Russia to hold imminent peace talks, the French president championed the need for Europe to “muscle up” on defence and the economy.

He insisted that only Ukraine’s President Volodymyr Zelenskyy could negotiate on behalf of his country, warning that allowing “peace that is a capitulation” would be “bad news for everyone”, including the US.

“The only question at this stage is whether President Putin is genuinely, sustainably, and credibly willing to agree to a ceasefire on this basis. After that, it’s up to the Ukrainians to negotiate with Russia,” Macron said, adding: “We all need to stay collectively vigilant.”

Europe must respond to Trump ‘electroshock’, says Macron

Edited February 14 by pellinore

[+OverSword]

So Europe should do just what trump has wanted them to do.  As long as we're on the same page 

[+Hammerclaw]

I didn't know Trump Derangement Syndrome was a pandemic.

[pellinore]

1 minute ago, Hammerclaw said:

I didn't know Trump Derangement Syndrome was a pandemic.

No one disputes Trump is deranged, and it is going to be a global problem due to the US's power. The problem is finding a way to deal with it.

[pellinore]

4 minutes ago, OverSword said:

So Europe should do just what trump has wanted them to do.  As long as we're on the same page 

Yes, he is a coward and a bully. We are on the same page with that.

[+Hammerclaw]

3 minutes ago, pellinore said:

Yes, he is a coward and a bully. We are on the same page with that.

Well, that makes you just a coward then, sitting in armchairs and on couches watching people die on TV as if they weren't real, egging on a war you're not willing to actively participate in. What good is Nato if it won't lift a finger right on its doorstep? We won't be sending our boys to die in that debacle. This is your show. Put up or shut up.

[jmccr8]

1 hour ago, Hammerclaw said:

Well, that makes you just a coward then, sitting in armchairs and on couches watching people die on TV as if they weren't real, egging on a war you're not willing to actively participate in. What good is Nato if it won't lift a finger right on its doorstep? We won't be sending our boys to die in that debacle. This is your show. Put up or shut up.

HI Hammer

Up until the collapse of the USSR Amareica saw it as a threat and terms like pinko commie were common. NATO members including the US cannot send troupes in but can continue to provide means and to date the means have been heavily restricted by guess who, yes the USA

[+and-then]

1 hour ago, Hammerclaw said:

This is your show. Put up or shut up.

They're just pis sed that the gravy train they've had for so long is coming to an end.  We've supplied a social welfare system for them since WWII and now a big part of it looks to be going away so they can defend themselves.

[+and-then]

21 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

to date the means have been heavily restricted by guess who, yes the USA

Seriously?  Should we have supplied them with stealth aircraft and nukes?  You guys don't seem to be able or willing to admit that the US OWES Ukraine nothing.  When it comes to armaments we have done more by far than has NATO's other members.  Restricting some uses is common with what we supply to allies and Ukraine is not nor ever has been our ally.

Macron is a typical cheese-eating surrender monkey but in this situation, he has some wisdom.  It's time for Europe to create its own defenses.  The US has a rising peer competitor in Asia, or haven't you noticed?

[jmccr8]

15 minutes ago, and-then said:

Seriously?  Should we have supplied them with stealth aircraft and nukes?  You guys don't seem to be able or willing to admit that the US OWES Ukraine nothing.  When it comes to armaments we have done more by far than has NATO's other members.  Restricting some uses is common with what we supply to allies and Ukraine is not nor ever has been our ally.

Macron is a typical cheese-eating surrender monkey but in this situation, he has some wisdom.  It's time for Europe to create its own defenses.  The US has a rising peer competitor in Asia, or haven't you noticed?

HI And Then

Are you being serious? Long rang missiles to take out military targets 2 years ago would have been a game changer. Also Trump stalling everything a year ago was a negative effect simply because he was playing election games. Don't be dense and accept that these things could have had a different effect as the EU was willing to supply longer rang missiles but the US blocked consent for use. 

[DarkHunter]

23 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

HI And Then

Are you being serious? Long rang missiles to take out military targets 2 years ago would have been a game changer. Also Trump stalling everything a year ago was a negative effect simply because he was playing election games. Don't be dense and accept that these things could have had a different effect as the EU was willing to supply longer rang missiles but the US blocked consent for use. 

Blaming Trump for the aid bill passing is a bit of a reach, he can speak against something but ultimately he isn't the one voting.  Even then with how slowly the Biden administration sent aid and all the limitations put on the aid assuming the aid was even sent at all the delay in the bill passing had no real effect.

The Biden administration had a lend-lease act and despite all the publicity around passing it they never used it and let it expired.  Can't really blame Trump for what happened under the Biden administration.

As for long range missiles it was Schultz who blocked Germany sending the Taurus cruise missile and France/UK were perfectly free to send the SCALP/storm shadow cruise missile far sooner then what they did.  If anything the larger issue is that Europe as a whole lacks multiple military capabilities cause Europe has collectively decided they didn't need such capabilities cause America had them and they could just have America fill in for their deficiencies.

America could of done more under Biden, America can do more under Trump, but nothing was or is stopping Europe from doing more with their own weapon systems.  

[+Hammerclaw]

1 hour ago, jmccr8 said:

HI Hammer

Up until the collapse of the USSR Amareica saw it as a threat and terms like pinko commie were common. NATO members including the US cannot send troupes in but can continue to provide means and to date the means have been heavily restricted by guess who, yes the USA

When you've had a turnip for President for four years, it's not surprising. Europe has a tradition of fighting pointless wars. War is cruelty; there's no way to refine it. You can only get it over as quickly as possible. That's not happening in Ukraine. It's a stalemate. How many more young men and women, old men and women have to die before Europe's thirst for vengeance is slaked? 

[jmccr8]

58 minutes ago, DarkHunter said:

Blaming Trump for the aid bill passing is a bit of a reach, he can speak against something but ultimately he isn't the one voting.  Even then with how slowly the Biden administration sent aid and all the limitations put on the aid assuming the aid was even sent at all the delay in the bill passing had no real effect.

The Biden administration had a lend-lease act and despite all the publicity around passing it they never used it and let it expired.  Can't really blame Trump for what happened under the Biden administration.

As for long range missiles it was Schultz who blocked Germany sending the Taurus cruise missile and France/UK were perfectly free to send the SCALP/storm shadow cruise missile far sooner then what they did.  If anything the larger issue is that Europe as a whole lacks multiple military capabilities cause Europe has collectively decided they didn't need such capabilities cause America had them and they could just have America fill in for their deficiencies.

America could of done more under Biden, America can do more under Trump, but nothing was or is stopping Europe from doing more with their own weapon systems.  

HI Dark

I am talking about how he blocked aid to  Israel and Ukraine over border issues as part of his  election platform. Biden who is also an American held back on allowing the use of long range missiles for both American and Europeans. 

[jmccr8]

42 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

When you've had a turnip for President for four years, it's not surprising. Europe has a tradition of fighting pointless wars. War is cruelty; there's no way to refine it. You can only get it over as quickly as possible. That's not happening in Ukraine. It's a stalemate. How many more young men and women, old men and women have to die before Europe's thirst for vengeance is slaked? 

HI Hammer

I don't disagree really but using longer range missiles to target airfields, storage and production sites deep into Russia would have saved lives in the Ukraine none the less. Can't say I think your next 4 years are looking rosy either if Trump continues to think he can threaten trade partners and allies. How will it affect your country when you have to pay increased material costs from countries like mine that many of your industries need from everything from agriculture to automobile production as you get Iron and aluminum from us. Then add 25% for tariffs on top. 

The whole world is a marketplace and you get a good price because of ease of transport, doesn't mean we can't sell elsewhere and make you compete. 

I don't wish I'll on anyone but when push comes to shove we are all going to look out for our own and Trump threw the first punch. 

[jmccr8]

Biden missile move puts UK and French weapons into play

London and Paris have donated Storm Shadow/SCALP missiles to Kyiv, but Washington has blocked their use against targets in Russia.

politico.eu

www.politico.eu

 

Biden missile move puts UK and French weapons into play

 

Nov 18, 2024

 

 

The use of long range missiles had to be given from the US for even European countries to supply them for combat use in the Ukraine. 

[DarkHunter]

22 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

HI Dark

I am talking about how he blocked aid to  Israel and Ukraine over border issues as part of his  election platform. Biden who is also an American held back on allowing the use of long range missiles for both American and Europeans. 

Trump told the Republicans in the legislature shouldn't vote for the bill for various political reasons but Trump had no real power to stop them from voting however they wanted, but the reality is the Democrats put unacceptable things to the Republicans in the border bill and tried to tie unrelated things to the bill.  Even without Trump saying anything with how the bill was worded and the issues at the time it was incredibly unlikely the Republicans in the legislature would of voted for it anyway.

As for Biden he only has authority over American weapons systems.  The reality is the European countries could of not listened to Biden and sent their own long range weapons, assuming they had them to begin with as only France has a long range cruise missile (MdCN) with France, UK, and Germany having medium range cruise missiles (SCALP/Storm Shadow and Taurus) but the amount of those missiles is incredibly low with potentially less than 300 Taurus missiles even being functional if I remember correctly.  The fact that the American president can dictate how European nations use their own domestic weapons cause of the massive capability holes and European over reliance on America for military matters is a serious problem that just highlights how Europe has essentially used America as a free ride for military matters.

[jmccr8]

2 minutes ago, DarkHunter said:

Trump told the Republicans in the legislature shouldn't vote for the bill for various political reasons but Trump had no real power to stop them from voting however they wanted, but the reality is the Democrats put unacceptable things to the Republicans in the border bill and tried to tie unrelated things to the bill.  Even without Trump saying anything with how the bill was worded and the issues at the time it was incredibly unlikely the Republicans in the legislature would of voted for it anyway.

As for Biden he only has authority over American weapons systems.  The reality is the European countries could of not listened to Biden and sent their own long range weapons, assuming they had them to begin with as only France has a long range cruise missile (MdCN) with France, UK, and Germany having medium range cruise missiles (SCALP/Storm Shadow and Taurus) but the amount of those missiles is incredibly low with potentially less than 300 Taurus missiles even being functional if I remember correctly.  The fact that the American president can dictate how European nations use their own domestic weapons cause of the massive capability holes and European over reliance on America for military matters is a serious problem that just highlights how Europe has essentially used America as a free ride for military matters.

HI Dark

Trump exercised influence in that hold up and personally will no excuse him and have no problem if you think otherwise. The US influenced the Ukraine's ability to defend itself period no excuses as France, UK and Germany were all willing to supply long range missiles. 

[DarkHunter]

6 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

HI Dark

Trump exercised influence in that hold up and personally will no excuse him and have no problem if you think otherwise. The US influenced the Ukraine's ability to defend itself period no excuses as France, UK and Germany were all willing to supply long range missiles. 

France, UK, and Germany were willing to give the appearance of being willing to supply longer range missiles with the knowledge that the Biden administration would tell them no and give them an excuse as to why they want to supply them but can't.

Ultimately either European nations can supply Ukraine with whatever domestic weapons they want and are just using America as an excuse as to why they can't while making a show of how they want to or all these European nations are really just vassel states controlled by America.  If France, UK, and Germany truly are soveriegn states then why can America tell them what to do with their own domestic weapons.  

[psyche101]

5 hours ago, pellinore said:

Emmanuel Macron has described Donald Trump’s return as an “electroshock” that should force Europe to secure its own future as well as Ukraine’s.

In an interview at the Élysée Palace shortly after Trump agreed with Vladimir Putin of Russia to hold imminent peace talks, the French president championed the need for Europe to “muscle up” on defence and the economy.

He insisted that only Ukraine’s President Volodymyr Zelenskyy could negotiate on behalf of his country, warning that allowing “peace that is a capitulation” would be “bad news for everyone”, including the US.

“The only question at this stage is whether President Putin is genuinely, sustainably, and credibly willing to agree to a ceasefire on this basis. After that, it’s up to the Ukrainians to negotiate with Russia,” Macron said, adding: “We all need to stay collectively vigilant.”

Europe must respond to Trump ‘electroshock’, says Macron

It's already worse again. 

Vice President ghost Vance has emerged from the dark corners to completely and totally get all of Europe angry at America 

Vance attack on Europe ignores Ukraine and defence agenda

Even a joke, "if American democracy can survive 10 years of [climate campaigner] Greta Thunberg scolding, you guys can survive a few months of Elon Musk", failed to raise a single laugh.

He accused European governments of retreating from their values, and ignoring voter concerns on migration and free speech.

Vance's speech went down very badly - unequivocally badly. It was extraordinarily poorly judged.

 

People actually voted for these idiots. Is half of America on drugs or something? 

[Unusual Tournament]

5 hours ago, pellinore said:

Emmanuel Macron has described Donald Trump’s return as an “electroshock” that should force Europe to secure its own future as well as Ukraine’s.

In an interview at the Élysée Palace shortly after Trump agreed with Vladimir Putin of Russia to hold imminent peace talks, the French president championed the need for Europe to “muscle up” on defence and the economy.

He insisted that only Ukraine’s President Volodymyr Zelenskyy could negotiate on behalf of his country, warning that allowing “peace that is a capitulation” would be “bad news for everyone”, including the US.

“The only question at this stage is whether President Putin is genuinely, sustainably, and credibly willing to agree to a ceasefire on this basis. After that, it’s up to the Ukrainians to negotiate with Russia,” Macron said, adding: “We all need to stay collectively vigilant.”

Europe must respond to Trump ‘electroshock’, says Macron

Putin would never agree to a ceasefire without a definitive agreement on an end to the war including trade embargo’s. Ukraine would be better off following Europe and waiting for another American president who’s more sympathetic. Sadly for Ukraine, they need to continue to fight for the next 4 years

[jmccr8]

35 minutes ago, DarkHunter said:

France, UK, and Germany were willing to give the appearance of being willing to supply longer range missiles with the knowledge that the Biden administration would tell them no and give them an excuse as to why they want to supply them but can't.

Ultimately either European nations can supply Ukraine with whatever domestic weapons they want and are just using America as an excuse as to why they can't while making a show of how they want to or all these European nations are really just vassel states controlled by America.  If France, UK, and Germany truly are soveriegn states then why can America tell them what to do with their own domestic weapons.  

HI Dark

I would think that it is because at one time they had good trade relations and respect for American influence. Not sure things will stay the same now. 

[DarkHunter]

1 minute ago, jmccr8 said:

HI Dark

I would think that it is because at one time they had good trade relations and respect for American influence. Not sure things will stay the same now. 

So good trade relations and respect is why only three European countries produce medium distance cruise missiles and only one European country produces a long range cruise missile, why the biggest single economy in Europe effectively has no military, and how Europe as a whole has an inability to produce critical weapons and ammunition at scale.  Becoming a dependent on America is a great way to show respect and good trade relations.

Europe gutted their militaries and military infrastructure to pay for social programs under the assumption that America would always cover the cost of defense and their military deficiencies.

[jmccr8]

30 minutes ago, DarkHunter said:

So good trade relations and respect is why only three European countries produce medium distance cruise missiles and only one European country produces a long range cruise missile, why the biggest single economy in Europe effectively has no military, and how Europe as a whole has an inability to produce critical weapons and ammunition at scale.  Becoming a dependent on America is a great way to show respect and good trade relations.

Europe gutted their militaries and military infrastructure to pay for social programs under the assumption that America would always cover the cost of defense and their military deficiencies.

HI Dark

And part of those trade relations is those countries buying weapons from the US that wasn't allowing the use of long range missiles. 

We will see how the future unfolds with Trump making the US isolated and losing trade relations with ex allies. The US was with out a doubt the biggest negative impact in how things are playing out in the Ukraine much have this could have been avoided by not dragging heels. 

[DarkHunter]

2 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

HI Dark

And part of those trade relations is those countries buying weapons from the US that wasn't allowing the use of long range missiles. 

We will see how the future unfolds with Trump making the US isolated and losing trade relations with ex allies. The US was with out a doubt the biggest negative impact in how things are playing out in the Ukraine much have this could have been avoided by not dragging heels. 

What long range weapons systems were these European nations buying from America that America blocked them from sending to Ukraine and even then how is Europe over relying on America for military equipment and acceptable excuse.  The reality is that Europe gave up its military and military industry cause they believed America would always be there and would always cover the cost while they largely had to do nothing.

Europe is just as guilty as America.  It wasn't America that funded Russia by buying Russian natural gas like Germany and it isn't America's fault that Europe decided they didn't need any actual military or military infrastructure cause they could just use America.  

[jmccr8]

2 minutes ago, DarkHunter said:

What long range weapons systems were these European nations buying from America that America blocked them from sending to Ukraine and even then how is Europe over relying on America for military equipment and acceptable excuse.  The reality is that Europe gave up its military and military industry cause they believed America would always be there and would always cover the cost while they largely had to do nothing.

Europe is just as guilty as America.  It wasn't America that funded Russia by buying Russian natural gas like Germany and it isn't America's fault that Europe decided they didn't need any actual military or military infrastructure cause they could just use America.  

HI Dark

Okay I accept that is your position and do respect your knowledge base. Ultimately Russian funds from confiscated assets is what was proposed to cover costs and we may disagree on some points but the US would be paid none the less.