Judge gives Musk just three weeks to justify mass federal layoffs

[pellinore]

Elon Musk's Department of Government Efficiency has been given three weeks to answer questions in writing about how it decided to downsize federal agencies, suspend contracts and carry out mass firings.

US District Judge Tanya Chutkan turned the tables on DOGE on Wednesday, three weeks after Musk's 'what did you do last week' email to staffers sparked mass protests.

The cost-cutting endeavor has prompted several lawsuits as DOGE seeks to slash bloated bureaucracies and eliminate wasteful government spending.

Chutkan gave Musk three weeks to comply with a discovery order that requires his team to answer questions about the inner workings of the department and turn over relevant documents. 

Judge orders DOGE to turn over top secret records and demands Musk justify mass federal layoffs | Daily Mail Online

Edited March 13 by pellinore

[+OverSword]

Glad to see other branches of the government requiring accountability to this seemingly disorganized attempt to shrink federal government and spending.

[Edumakated]

Companies have mass layoffs all the time.  Government lays off people and all of a sudden it is a crisis.  What is hilarious is that every time there is a supposed "government shutdown" no one ever misses anything.  I suspect no one will miss the DOE.  They have not cut funding, just getting rid of the dead bureaucrat weight.   Kids are still going to school.  The money can still go to the states directly.  I'm sure the state and local education departments can hire some of the out work DOE employees.  Worst case, they can learn to code.  Oh wait, AI is taking that over.  Maybe they can get a job at a reopened American plant.  Worst case there is always Wal-mart greeter or Trader Joes.

[Trelane]

Boy oh boy, when the fat cats are threatened with being cut off from the gravy train they've been riding they sure do pull out all the stops.

[pellinore]

48 minutes ago, Trelane said:

Boy oh boy, when the fat cats are threatened with being cut off from the gravy train they've been riding they sure do pull out all the stops.

I've read many of the people laid off are vets, often with pretty average pay scales. The fat cats are the ones doing the firing.

[Trelane]

53 minutes ago, pellinore said:

I've read many of the people laid off are vets, often with pretty average pay scales. The fat cats are the ones doing the firing.

You're reading what someone wants you know. In order to elicit the very responses you and others have been demonstrating.

Yes, many are veterans. Some, very few actually, are paid on the low end of the government schedule (GS) pay scale. This is due to the fact they are veterans and are rated higher pay based on their experience. As such these former servicemembers are doing what is commonly called as double dipping. Drawing their retirement pensions and also being paid very well for duties that were primarily done by uniformed servicemembers prior to the '91 Gulf War. The average govt. employee is a GS-13, Step 6 or higher.

The thing is not what they've done, not at all. They served honorably and have earned their retirement benefits. They applied for jobs and were able to slide in comfortably knowing how to "game" the system. It's the redundancies and inefficiency at all levels. That's the problem.

Edited March 13 by Trelane

[+OverSword]

I back the call for DOGE transparency.  I support what they are trying to accomplish and want every bit of it to be able to withstand scrutiny.

[Trelane]

 

1 hour ago, OverSword said:

I back the call for DOGE transparency.  I support what they are trying to accomplish and want every bit of it to be able to withstand scrutiny.

I totally agree. I am for transparency for all entities. Put the cards on the table so to speak and let the voting public see and make their own conclusions.

You know why people don't bunched up about how much military servicemembers get paid? Because it's common/public knowledge.

Edited March 13 by Trelane

[Tatetopa]

It bothers me that the administration has such disrespect for working people. MTG in Congress and Laura Ingraham on FOX have accused government workers  of being lazy, dishonest scammers without real jobs. Ironic coming from Laura and Marjorie who do not have real jobs. Its the people on top creating the waste and fraud, not the workers.

Making government workers the enemy, and another  cause of our problems  is a further division of the public into smaller less powerful groups that distrust and hate each other.  

I have lived through several corporate layoffs.  None of them sought to rob the workers of dignity and worth by making up a performance issue, or firing them by email, or having an emergency drill and not letting anybody back in the building. That is total CS even for a heartless corporation.

Get used to it if we follow this course.  It is how the oligarchs view the average citizen and working class family as tools to be used to their advantage and then thrown away.  

[Trelane]

This isn't steel workers and farmers we're discussing. This is white collar government employees who are paid well over 6 digit salaries(in addition to military retirement pensions for many if not most) and have been very well protected as the norm for decades. Even if they are lazy, incompetent or derelict in their duties it has been damn near impossible to hold them accountable and remove them....until now.

Edited March 13 by Trelane

[Gromdor]

10 minutes ago, Trelane said:

This isn't steel workers and farmers we're discussing. This is white collar government employees who are paid well over 6 digit salaries(in addition to military retirement pensions for many if not most) and have been very well protected as the norm for decades. Even if they are lazy, incompetent or derelict in their duties it has been damn near impossible to hold them accountable and remove them....until now.

I'll link the GS pay schedule: https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/salaries-wages/2024/general-schedule

It seems there is a misconception on how much government workers get paid.  

They average 5 digit salaries: https://www.fedsmith.com/2021/05/10/characteristics-of-federal-employees/

[Trelane]

13 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

I'll link the GS pay schedule: https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/salaries-wages/2024/general-schedule

It seems there is a misconception on how much government workers get paid.  

They average 5 digit salaries: https://www.fedsmith.com/2021/05/10/characteristics-of-federal-employees/

No misconceptions, not here at the 5 sided puzzle box. Most "worker bees" are GS-14/15's. The rest of the suits are SLs and SES. 

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

It seems fair enough to ask “why?” when (as we’re told time and agsin) that Musk has no inherent authority, he’s just an advisor. They’ll take his advise after careful consideration and justification. 

[pellinore]

2 hours ago, OverSword said:

I back the call for DOGE transparency.  I support what they are trying to accomplish and want every bit of it to be able to withstand scrutiny.

I agree. There is always a tendency for govt agencies (and private companies)  to become bloated over time, and since most public services are not expected to show a profit (quite the opposite as they are services) they do need scrutiny. But not gleeful hacking by people who do not know what they are trying to achieve. 

It all needs to be transparent, and carefully planned. Trump's administration is a wrecking ball. To the US and its allies. It is also a gift to the enemies of the US. Trump is a child, and Putin is playing him like a fool.

Edited March 13 by pellinore

[pellinore]

1 hour ago, Tatetopa said:

Get used to it if we follow this course.  It is how the oligarchs view the average citizen and working class family as tools to be used to their advantage and then thrown away.  

Trump and Musk make no secret of their admiration for oligarchs and dictators.

[+OverSword]

1 minute ago, pellinore said:

It all needs to be transparent, and carefully planned. Trump's administration is a wrecking ball. To the US and its allies. It is also a gift to the enemies of the US. Trump is a child, and Putin is playing him like a fool.

And given a short time period of four years I understand the urge to do it wrecking ball style. Because four years really is not enough time to do this effectively.  What we really need is The Bureau of Sabotage

[Gromdor]

1 hour ago, Trelane said:

No misconceptions, not here at the 5 sided puzzle box. Most "worker bees" are GS-14/15's. The rest of the suits are SLs and SES. 

Ah, I would imagine everyone in the Pentagon would be paid more than the federal workers we have here in Iowa.  We had two IRS offices shut down (one in Cedar Rapids and one In Sioux City), VA, Social Security, US fish and wildlife firings, and the Federal Highway Adminstration office shut down.  I'm not sure how the food inspectors are doing, last I heard they were rehired because of bird flu.  Most of those guys did not make 6 figure salaries.  

  I attended a Trade Board meeting Tuesday with the local companies and the Des Moines union representative.  One of the things on the docket for discussion was a ten year "census" of wages performed by the Department of Labor that sets the prevailing wage of a county for any given trade.  Iowa is due for the census, but the lady that was in charge of it got DOGE'd.  The union business agent found out about it the hard way when he tried to contact her during one of his routine talks with her and her phone and email just disappeared.  Everyone was mildly suprised that her work was abruptly dropped, her clients/customers weren't notified, and everything was left hanging.  I'm a bit horrifed to think about the poor people who had business regarding stuff like their social security payments or VA health issues who probably similarly got abruptly dropped.  

[simplybill]

2 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

I have lived through several corporate layoffs.  None of them sought to rob the workers of dignity and worth by making up a performance issue, or firing them by email, or having an emergency drill and not letting anybody back in the building. 

Corporations pay their employees with the profits made by the Corporations.

Government employees are paid with the tax money that I shell out for everything I buy and everything I earn.

This government corruption has been going on for decades. What’s disappointing to me is that there have been no whistleblowers and no investigations. The people that have been milking that cash cow have kept their mouths shut and taken advantage of the American citizens. 

Hopefully this purge will encourage people to be less tolerant of corruption in government.

[Gromdor]

28 minutes ago, simplybill said:

Corporations pay their employees with the profits made by the Corporations.

Government employees are paid with the tax money that I shell out for everything I buy and everything I earn.

This government corruption has been going on for decades. What’s disappointing to me is that there have been no whistleblowers and no investigations. The people that have been milking that cash cow have kept their mouths shut and taken advantage of the American citizens. 

Hopefully this purge will encourage people to be less tolerant of corruption in government.

$10 million on golf trips for a federal employee:  https://www.yahoo.com/news/donald-trump-already-spent-10-003317081.html

This gal who is making fashion videos at work:https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-official-made-fashion-influencer-videos-at-work-while-defending-doge-layoffs-cnn/ar-AA1AJEXS?ocid=BingNewsSerp

Government employee making a car commercial for his buddy at place of work: https://cassiuslife.com/1074808/tesla-stock-rise-after-trump-white-house-elon-musk-ad/

I think, if anything it is making people more tolerant.

[psyche101]

26 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

$10 million on golf trips for a federal employee:  https://www.yahoo.com/news/donald-trump-already-spent-10-003317081.html

This gal who is making fashion videos at work:https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-official-made-fashion-influencer-videos-at-work-while-defending-doge-layoffs-cnn/ar-AA1AJEXS?ocid=BingNewsSerp

Government employee making a car commercial for his buddy at place of work: https://cassiuslife.com/1074808/tesla-stock-rise-after-trump-white-house-elon-musk-ad/

I think, if anything it is making people more tolerant.

 

 

That's astounding.

And incredibly hypocritical. This is what people are cheering on?

Looks like the waste is just being relocated. 

[simplybill]

33 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

$10 million on golf trips for a federal employee:  https://www.yahoo.com/news/donald-trump-already-spent-10-003317081.html

This gal who is making fashion videos at work:https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-official-made-fashion-influencer-videos-at-work-while-defending-doge-layoffs-cnn/ar-AA1AJEXS?ocid=BingNewsSerp

Government employee making a car commercial for his buddy at place of work: https://cassiuslife.com/1074808/tesla-stock-rise-after-trump-white-house-elon-musk-ad/

I think, if anything it is making people more tolerant.

And all three of those things were done in the open. Those people weren’t hiding anything. 

[joseraul]

Once congress passes a bill for federal spending, that's like.. binding by law. 

To have someone come in and start cancelling stuff is unprecedented. Nonetheless, despite their claims, there has been no evidence/receipts put forward for the fraud/waste/abuse. lol.

Not all judges who block E.O's are 'activist judges' trying to block Trump. Their job is to interpret the law/constitution compared to what a sitting President does.

This is called checks and balances. These were put in place to keep each branch of government in check so they wouldn't become too powerful and authoritarian.

But the fact that Elon hasn't been sworn-in... the lack of transparency. The firing of many people who can provide oversight to the legality of their actions... all of this is pointing to bad news.

In the past few days I have finally started to see Repubs/MAGA picking up on this. Because, what is happening will not be good for America as a whole.

 

 

At this point the Dems have no teeth. Because there are protections for the process we've trusted for so long... unless that's what theyre waiting for... letting them dig themselves a whole and rack up all kinds of charges for treason.

Edited March 14 by joseraul

[simplybill]

20 minutes ago, joseraul said:

But the fact that Elon hasn't been sworn-in... the lack of transparency. The firing of many people who can provide oversight to the legality of their actions... all of this is pointing to bad news.

That’s exactly why Elon Musk and his team of young geniuses are perfect for this job.

Up until now, the power of oversight has been in the hands of political cronies who have been overseeing other political cronies.  That’s why political corruption has been thriving for decades.

 

[joseraul]

10 minutes ago, simplybill said:

That’s exactly why Elon Musk and his team of young geniuses are perfect for this job.

Up until now, the power of oversight has been in the hands of political cronies who have been overseeing other political cronies.  That’s why political corruption has been thriving for decades.

 

The oversight is that congress votes on and passes these bills for federal spending. The bills they pass have a website. There is also a website once it gets approved for spending! Allllll of this is TRANSPARENT, PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE. Not some behind-the-scenes secretive thing.

Elon and DOGE have not been able to provide proof/transparency.

According to the justice system, fraud is a felony.. if it's happening - where are the arrests or indictments?

Going and finding waste/fraud/and abuse for DOGE is them going and finding LEGALLY allocated taxpayer money on things THEY THINK are waste.

Meanwhile, he has a team of smalltime hackers (one who works on Voting Machines with a software called Ballotproof)

Elon has a stake and investment in the AI race... and what does AI need for it to learn and grow? Data. What does the federal government have A LOT OF on its citizens? Data.

The people allowing this are putting the US Government and its citizens in a potentially precarious position.

 

Edited March 14 by joseraul

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

26 minutes ago, joseraul said:

The oversight is that congress votes on and passes these bills for federal spending. The bills they pass have a website. There is also a website once it gets approved for spending! Allllll of this is TRANSPARENT, PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE. Not some behind-the-scenes secretive thing.

Elon and DOGE have not been able to provide proof/transparency.

According to the justice system, fraud is a felony.. if it's happening - where are the arrests or indictments?

Going and finding waste/fraud/and abuse for DOGE is them going and finding LEGALLY allocated taxpayer money on things THEY THINK are waste.

Meanwhile, he has a team of smalltime hackers (one who works on Voting Machines with a software called Ballotproof)

Elon has a stake and investment in the AI race... and what does AI need for it to learn and grow? Data. What does the federal government have A LOT OF on its citizens? Data.

The people allowing this are putting the US Government and its citizens in a potentially precarious position.

 

Given the speed rhe American legal system moves at when it comes to white collar crime, I expect any indictments will start to crop up in the 30s.