Terrorism on the rise?

[pallidin]

It's all a question of foreign US policy which has caused the outrage within the muslim world.

645900[/snapback]

What outrage? That the peoples of the Muslim nations should be allowed to vote their leaders? That their women should have an equal, equitable and viable stance within their society? That commerce should be dictated by "norms" as opposed to the whims of dictorial rulers?

[SnakeProphet]

It's all a question of foreign US policy which has caused the outrage within the muslim world.

645900[/snapback]

What outrage? That the peoples of the Muslim nations should be allowed to vote their leaders? That their women should have an equal, equitable and viable stance within their society? That commerce should be dictated by "norms" as opposed to the whims of dictorial rulers?

645920[/snapback]

Has it ever come to your mind that not ALL people want your "freedom".Maybe they did like it the way their country has been,but america didn t let them a choice.They forced their so-called freedom upon them.

[SnakeProphet]

Interesting viewpoint, Snake.

I m for the winning side, it s as simple as that.If america can get rid of Islam and actually does,then I m with you provided the money is right.

Edited May 29, 2005 by Snake_6024

[Babs]

Interesting viewpoint, Snake.

I m for the winning side, it s as simple as that.If america can get rid of Islam and actually does,then I m with you provided the money is right.

646303[/snapback]

Eh... right.

[Babs]

The radical Islamic movement is the most dangerous sectarian ideology that this world has ever seen.

At all costs, it must be eradicated.

645894[/snapback]

So true!

[Babs]

To a certain level I agree and disagree with the more recent posts. It's very short sighted to claim a stance on European attitudes towards terrorism. Britain has been fighting the IRA for decades and Spain has been fighting ETA for just as long. So it's pretty obvious as to what their stances towards terrorism are. With regards to muslim fundamentalism well IMO the problem does not affect Europe as bad as it affects the US. It's all a question of foreign US policy which has caused the outrage within the muslim world. So in theory why should the EU launch themselves into a new crusade when we are not the main targets? Unfortuanately we do not have the protection of being thousands of miles away as the US does.

645900[/snapback]

Good points, however isn't that a selfish view to take for the EU....not being a target and so close to the action, that it feels it shouldn't fight or rock the boat. Wouldn't that 'sort of thinking and doing' come back (around) to kick you in the butt?

[Babs]

It's all a question of foreign US policy which has caused the outrage within the muslim world.

645900[/snapback]

What outrage? That the peoples of the Muslim nations should be allowed to vote their leaders? That their women should have an equal, equitable and viable stance within their society? That commerce should be dictated by "norms" as opposed to the whims of dictorial rulers?

645920[/snapback]

Has it ever come to your mind that not ALL people want your "freedom".Maybe they did like it the way their country has been,but america didn t let them a choice.They forced their so-called freedom upon them.

646302[/snapback]

This is true to an extent, many didn't want our cultural standards pushed on them, even the women to some extent didn't want to change their clothing or attire. But I have to say all the women wanted equality and freedom to go to school and not be beaten and subjected to male domination. Of course they don't want their private parts operated on either. It would be nice if they could have some pleasure in their sexual lives as men do... and always have.

Edited May 29, 2005 by Babs

[SnakeProphet]

This is true to an extent, many didn't want our cultural standards pushed on them, even the women to some extent didn't want to change their clothing or attire. But I have to say all the women wanted equality and freedom to go to school and not be beaten and subjected to male domination. Of course they don't want their private parts operated on either. It would be nice if they could have some pleasure in their sexual lives as men do... and always have.

I highly doubt, the islamic men have pleasure in their sexual life.But if you look at the western world....

Male domination happens in the civilised world as well.It s not like it is limited to Islam.

Edited May 29, 2005 by Snake_6024

[pallidin]

This is true to an extent, many didn't want our cultural standards pushed on them, even the women to some extent didn't want to change their clothing or attire. But I have to say all the women wanted equality and freedom to go to school and not be beaten and subjected to male domination. Of course they don't want their private parts operated on either.  It would be nice if they could have some pleasure in their sexual lives as men do... and always have.

I highly doubt, the islamic men have pleasure in their sexual life.But if you look at the western world....

Male domination happens in the civilised world as well.It s not like it is limited to Islam.

646369[/snapback]

I look at it this way:

In democratic nations, women are allowed to hold public offices of high importance, all the way to the Presidency and such.

In some Islamic nations, women are forbidden from participation in State affairs.

What could possibly make a women's opinion in a State debate less valid for consideration than a man's? I just don't get it.

[SnakeProphet]

This is true to an extent, many didn't want our cultural standards pushed on them, even the women to some extent didn't want to change their clothing or attire. But I have to say all the women wanted equality and freedom to go to school and not be beaten and subjected to male domination. Of course they don't want their private parts operated on either.  It would be nice if they could have some pleasure in their sexual lives as men do... and always have.

I highly doubt, the islamic men have pleasure in their sexual life.But if you look at the western world....

Male domination happens in the civilised world as well.It s not like it is limited to Islam.

646369[/snapback]

I look at it this way:

In democratic nations, women are allowed to hold public offices of high importance, all the way to the Presidency and such.

In some Islamic nations, women are forbidden from participation in State affairs.

What could possibly make a women's opinion in a State debate less valid for consideration than a man's? I just don't get it.

646648[/snapback]

It propably isn t even less valid in the view of men.But state affairs need participation at all times, making it impossible for a woman to manage a household,take care of the children etc. .Something woman are supposed to do in an islamic country.It s not like they have completely no rights.They do have some,although I can t name them currently.Ask zephyr, he propably has way more knowledge of Islam than I do.

Edited May 29, 2005 by Snake_6024

[pallidin]

It propably isn t even less valid in the view of men.But state affairs need participation at all times, making it impossible for a woman to manage a household,take care of the children etc. .Something woman are supposed to do in an islamic.It s not like they have completely no rights.They do have some,although I can t name them currently.Ask zephyr, he propably has way more knowledge of Islam than I do.

646664[/snapback]

I find that to be a most excellent explanation. You have given a balanced and concise opinion.

[SnakeProphet]

I find that to be a most excellent explanation. You have given a balanced and concise opinion.

I m kind of lost...You are being sarcastic aren t you?

[pallidin]

I find that to be a most excellent explanation. You have given a balanced and concise opinion.

I m kind of lost...You are being sarcastic aren t you?

646720[/snapback]

Not at all. Your comments on that are, in my opinion, very good. It has helped me to understand the issue a little more.

[SnakeProphet]

Not at all. Your comments on that are, in my opinion, very good. It has helped me to understand the issue a little more.

Oh, my bad.It doesn t happen quite often that someone agrees with me.They tend to misunderstand me and put me on one side and then are confused when I suddenly start to argue against that side.And I actually said about 4 or 5 times where I stand.

[Babs]

Not at all. Your comments on that are, in my opinion, very good. It has helped me to understand the issue a little more.

Oh, my bad.It doesn t happen quite often that someone agrees with me.They tend to misunderstand me and put me on one side and then are confused when I suddenly start to argue against that side.And I actually said about 4 or 5 times where I stand.

646762[/snapback]

That's exactly how I'd describe my dealings with you.

Snake wrote about women and their rights in Islam.

It's not like they have completely no rights. They have some, although I can't name them currently. Ask zephyr, he probably has more knowledge of Islam than I do.

That's a good one. Well, when you put it that way, I don't know what they have to complain about?

How about you turn that around and put the men in that position?....

"It's not like the men completely have no rights. They have some, although I can't name them currently. Ask an Iranian woman, she probably has more knowledge of Islam than I do."

Yeah, that sounds right...what do you think? Do you think the guys would complain?

[SnakeProphet]

There are 2 ways how history could have happened.It happened this way.What s wrong with that?If you take it the other way we would have an american man here now complaining about the rights of men in islamic coutries.Whatever way you take it,it will always be the same.It really doesn t matter which way it is now does it?

[pallidin]

Perhaps there is some misunderstanding here.

Snake's comment was not intended to "justify" but rather "explain" in comment to my question.

Here is the quote:

"It propably isn t even less valid in the view of men.But state affairs need participation at all times, making it impossible for a woman to manage a household,take care of the children etc. .Something woman are supposed to do in an islamic.It s not like they have completely no rights.They do have some,although I can t name them currently.Ask zephyr, he propably has way more knowledge of Islam than I do."

So, let's pick this apart(I will do word corrections)...

"It probably isn't even less valid in the view of men."

I find that to be an extremely mature statement.

"But state affairs need participation at all times..."

Let's get real... how right is that!

"...making it impossible for a woman to manage a household,take care of the children etc."

Nice! He doesn't speak of inferiority, rather responsibility.

"Something woman are supposed to do in an islamic(culture)"

Excellent!!! Snake clearly identifies the issue.

"It s not like they have completely no rights(women)"

Again, nice, a balanced perspective in comment.

"They do have some,although I can't name them currently. Ask zephyr, he probably has way more knowledge of Islam than I do."

Willingness to remand the issue to someone more knowledgable in Islam than he. Speaks highly of general character, in my opinion.

All-in-all, I despise the radical Islamic movement. But I feel that Snake's comment to my question was very well put.

[zephyr]

Eventhough this is a thread about terrorism, I'll stay off-topic like other friends here and contribute my two cents worth about women.

It is impossible to talk about women and their role in Islamic societies as a general, block-type issue. The obvious reason being the diversity of the cultures we would be talking about and the fact that the status of women in Malaysia is completely different than those in Yemen for example, eventhough they might both share Islam as a religion.

In what concerens Iran, let me first say women can drive in this country! it's important to know that women in Iran have had the right to vote since the 1930s when the father of the late shah (Reza Shah) introduced the law that allowed them to participate in elections. This is of course long before women in some European countries were allowed to vote (It was only in the 70s when Swiss women were given the right to vote for example).

Women played an important role during the revolution of 79 and against the dictatorship. Of course with the rise of the extremists following the revolution, things started to not look so good for them and eventhough there was much pressure to limit their role in the active life of the society, they fought back and that effort to limit them did not succeed completely. In fact women have been in the forefront of the struggle against extremism and the Iranians as a whole really owe a lot to the women in this country for that; thank you ladies for teaching men what struggle for freedom and against extremism means.

Matters concerning women are much different now than they were in the early years following the revolution and even the most hardliners and extremists have understood the vital role of women and the necessity for their participation in the political, economic and social life of the country. Women are becoming the majority in the universities, there are women deputies in the parliament and there is a woman minister without portfolio in the cabinet; she is the deputy president in environmental affairs. They are also members of city councils and one is even a mayor. There are many women doctors, lawyers, scientists, engineers, managers in both private and public sectors, writers, etc. There are many women(especially the younger ones), with weblogs and sites; a google search can be quite revealing and much more informitive than what I can say on the subject in one or two posts. One should not forget to mention Shirin Ebadi, the Nobel peace prize winner, a lawyer and a human rights activist. There is also a hot debate on a rather vague article of the constitution concerning women candidates for the presidency.

So, although by no means do I pretend that things are even close to what they should be for women in Iran and believe that there is still a long, hard struggle ahead of them and the society as a whole to reform discriminatory laws in place, attitudes have been and are changing fast (much faster than some could handle ), and there is really much hope for a better future for women in Iran; inshallah. It should be noted that some of the problems faced by women are the same as those faced by men also; however there is no denying that we have laws that discriminate directly against women and have to be absolutely modified; they're working at it and nobody expects things to change over night, but it has been proven in the last two decades or so that nobody can prevent change either, even if they want to very badly.

I must add that the image of a submitted, battered, naive Iranian woman who knows nothing else but to cook in her kitchen and be a slave of her husband, is a totally false and an unfaire one to the women who have given so much to better things for the society in this country.

[SnakeProphet]

Interesting.Didn t know they actually can vote.I myself know Islam for the most part from turks(?) as many seem to immigrate here.

[SnakeProphet]

Perhaps there is some misunderstanding here.

Snake's comment was not intended to "justify" but rather "explain" in comment to my question.

Here is the quote:

"It propably isn t even less valid in the view of men.But state affairs need participation at all times, making it impossible for a woman to manage a household,take care of the children etc. .Something woman are supposed to do in an islamic.It s not like they have completely no rights.They do have some,although I can t name them currently.Ask zephyr, he propably has way more knowledge of Islam than I do."

So, let's pick this apart(I will do word corrections)...

"It probably isn't even less valid in the view of men."

I find that to be an extremely mature statement.

"But state affairs need participation at all times..."

Let's get real... how right is that!

"...making it impossible for a woman to manage a household,take care of the children etc."

Nice! He doesn't speak of inferiority, rather responsibility.

"Something woman are supposed to do in an islamic(culture)"

Excellent!!! Snake clearly identifies the issue.

"It s not like they have completely no rights(women)"

Again, nice, a balanced perspective in comment.

"They do have some,although I can't name them currently. Ask zephyr, he probably has way more knowledge of Islam than I do."

Willingness to remand the issue to someone more knowledgable in Islam than he. Speaks highly of general character, in my opinion.

All-in-all, I despise the radical Islamic movement. But I feel that Snake's comment to my question was very well put.

Thanks. I really aprreciate your comment.Don t take it as an offense but I like to defend myself on my own , so there is no need to help me next time.

[wunarmdscissor]

The arabs are aggressive; the europeans aren't. If the europeans continue on as they have, not wanting to see terrorism for what it is and burying their heads in the sand, they will be conquered

oh we arent are we.

ignoring the complete and utter bigoted nature of the post , lets consider the facts .

how many wars in the last 2 centuries have we been involed in ?

yeah we're not aggressive people lol?(history books are a great thing babs)

what an absolutley ridiculous statement to make, for one its racist. (towards arabs)

secondly cannot you not even consider that becuase we've had FAR FAR more experience in terroorism that perhaps we know how the american approach will end?

[SnakeProphet]

Not only terorrism.What about imperialsm,or wars in general?

[gollum]

Good point Snake. As a whole the Europeans, more specifically the British have ransacked the entire globe in our history.

It did'nt work and neither will it work for America.

There is an old saying and it goes like this-: "The sun rises and sets 24 hours a day in the British empire".

[zephyr]

That's surely not an old persian saying, is it?

[SnakeProphet]

Good point Snake. As a whole the Europeans, more specifically the British have ransacked the entire globe in our history.

It did'nt work and neither will it work for America.

There is an old saying and it goes like this-: "The sun rises and sets 24 hours a day in the British empire".

Indeed.I was thinking of the British.They have stopped their global domination tour and eventually turned to their own business.I really would like to see america doing this as well.Unfortunately it s going the other way round, and the British are starting to take america as an example(memo).