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I am me

Terrorism on the rise?

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wunarmdscissor
You're generalizing about Islam and other religions in your second paragraph. As mentioned before, there are some badly misunderstood words around; 'infidels' and 'jihad' are typical examples and should be treated with utmost caution, especially when they are pronounced by confirmed terrorists

can you agree tho that Islam seems to have a much more pronouced extreme element?

remember i am an outsider looking in.

i have no problem with Islam , we all believe in the same god.

i just do believe its got a far more dangerous extreme element and with a much bigger volume of support than maybe a lot of ppl within islam want to believe.

Terrorists are fighting for their lives in Iraq. That's why there are so many terrorists there. They have to fight in Iraq to continue their idealogy. They see their agenda/program going down the tubes and so have to congregate in Iraq for the big war

so in a thread which states factually that terrorism is on the rise , you then claim terrorism is going down the tubes?

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I am me

i find it funny that this thread has been turned into one of "what should we do to the middle east nations to make things better for us". now...we don't live in the middle east, they do not pose a threat to any of us. why should we go in there and do anything to them? this creates more hate towards the USA thus breeds more terrorists. even fox news reported the support for al queida in the region rose sharply after we invaded iraq. like i have said before, this is a perpetual war for a perpetual peace.

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wunarmdscissor

honestly i swear i switch on fox news for a chuckle each day and if one day went by where they DIDNT mention 9/11 then i would be shocked.

its akin to English commentators failing to metion 1966 regardles of the circumstances lol.

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Babs

Isn't the world made up of opposites? Isn't there a duality? Isn't there a rise before a fall? Ah, wun, you make me wax poetic. wub.giflaugh.gif

Makes sense to me. Of, course, there will be a rise in terrorism, everyone is packing for Iraq. That's where the war is. But then the war will get smaller eventually. We are winning the war on terror.

And, anyway, we ain't goin' to stop.

REMEMBER 911

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wunarmdscissor
REMEMBER 911

why should i remeber it every single day?

do u spare a thought for brimingham or omah every day?

you probably dont even knwo what happened there , yet you lecture us that we should remember 9/11 constantly.

Isn't the world made up of opposites? Isn't there a duality? Isn't there a rise before a fall?

care to actually explain this cryptic nonesense.

Of, course, there will be a rise in terrorism, everyone is packing for Iraq. That's where the war is

oh is that right , so bali and madrid are actually Iraqi towns.

hmm my geography is awful.

I thought bush told everyone the war was over.

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bathory
i find it funny that this thread has been turned into one of "what should we do to the middle east nations to make things better for us". now...we don't live in the middle east, they do not pose a threat to any of us. why should we go in there and do anything to them? this creates more hate towards the USA thus breeds more terrorists. even fox news reported the support for al queida in the region rose sharply after we invaded iraq. like i have said before, this is a perpetual war for a perpetual peace.

they hate for the West (the US being the most obvious target, but don't be mistaken thinking that they just hate the US), is a result of Western influence gaining ground in the middle east. Its not about Israel/Palestine, its not about Afghanistan, its not about Iraq.

i'm not going to deny that terrorist activity and support would have gone up after taking action, but the coalition essentially kicked the hornets nest, it was expected that there would be increased activity, however the plan is a little more long term than simply kicking the hornets nest, think of it as kicking the hornets nest until you get a hole big enough to place a grenade inside:)

hell everyone also seems to be forgetting about Libyas about face after the invasion of Iraq, that was also a good thing, especially after Gaddafi came clean and admitted that he had been pursuing nuclear weapons, thus opening up the whole pakistani nuclear weapons blackmarket scandal thingy (its late lol)

oh is that right , so bali and madrid are actually Iraqi towns.

i'd like to point out that Bali occured before the Iraq war

AND was carried out by a group that existed and had been preaching its anti-western rhetoric prior to the Afghan war, your attempt to draw some kind of relationship with bali and any conflicts around the world is somewhat disingenous

Madrid on the other had i won't disagree with:)

Edited by bathory

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wunarmdscissor

al qeauda existed long before the war , when we trained them member?

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wunarmdscissor
hell everyone also seems to be forgetting about Libyas about face after the invasion of Iraq, that was also a good thing, especially after Gaddafi came clean and admitted that he had been pursuing nuclear weapons, thus opening up the whole pakistani nuclear weapons blackmarket scandal thingy (its late lol)

this is a great point , which was just as much to do with blairs skill on the international stage as the war.

for which he gets nae credit whatsoever,

but one of the many good outcomes after the war.

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bathory
al qeauda existed long before the war , when we trained them member?

the US didn't train al queda...

i think you'll find theres allot of misinformation floating around regarding the Bin Laden/CIA link, there wasn't one

Bin Laden was a self funded mujahadeen fighter who entered the fray towards the end of the conflictm 'Al Queda' was created after the conflict.

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wunarmdscissor
Bin Laden was a self funded mujahadeen fighter who entered the fray towards the end of the conflictm 'Al Queda' was created after the conflict.

one example.

did the CIA not sell ground to air missiles for shooting down soviet gunships?

the CIA DID train the mujahadeem. Many of them went onto become members of bin ladens manky mob.

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I am me
i find it funny that this thread has been turned into one of "what should we do to the middle east nations to make things better for us". now...we don't live in the middle east, they do not pose a threat to any of us. why should we go in there and do anything to them? this creates more hate towards the USA thus breeds more terrorists. even fox news reported the support for al queida in the region rose sharply after we invaded iraq. like i have said before, this is a perpetual war for a perpetual peace.

they hate for the West (the US being the most obvious target, but don't be mistaken thinking that they just hate the US), is a result of Western influence gaining ground in the middle east. Its not about Israel/Palestine, its not about Afghanistan, its not about Iraq.

i'm not going to deny that terrorist activity and support would have gone up after taking action, but the coalition essentially kicked the hornets nest, it was expected that there would be increased activity, however the plan is a little more long term than simply kicking the hornets nest, think of it as kicking the hornets nest until you get a hole big enough to place a grenade inside:)

hell everyone also seems to be forgetting about Libyas about face after the invasion of Iraq, that was also a good thing, especially after Gaddafi came clean and admitted that he had been pursuing nuclear weapons, thus opening up the whole pakistani nuclear weapons blackmarket scandal thingy (its late lol)

oh is that right , so bali and madrid are actually Iraqi towns.

i'd like to point out that Bali occured before the Iraq war

AND was carried out by a group that existed and had been preaching its anti-western rhetoric prior to the Afghan war, your attempt to draw some kind of relationship with bali and any conflicts around the world is somewhat disingenous

Madrid on the other had i won't disagree with:)

601114[/snapback]

my dad is in the military, he has been to iraq, he seems to think it is because we started building mcdonalds joints and things of the such over in the middle east. maybe, but i doubt this is the cause. oh but they also hate our freedom...please, the saudi's are more free than we are in many ways. i don't really know what to think. when i put my self in their shoes, i tend to go with them hating us because we mess with them. we build army bases on their land and we control their governments and terrorist groups to suit our immediate needs/wants. to me that seems more logical, it would p*** me off the most if they did the same things to us.

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bathory

i'm not saying they simply hate our freedom, they hate our western culture, compare the taliban run Afghanistan to the US, realise that taliban run Afghanistan is what these people dig

we build army bases on their land and we control their governments and terrorist groups to suit our immediate needs/wants. to me that seems more logical, it would p*** me off the most if they did the same things to us.

no you see thats what p***es of your average joe, or at least bugs them (unless of course they dig the west), there is an idealogy behind islamic terrorism, it isn't simply a reaction to western influence in the Middle East. They want to recreate the Islamic empires of old, definately not a good thing i would imagine.

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zephyr
the west is fighting against islamic facism wanting to recreate the glory days of Islam

I'll be damned if the 'glory days of islam' is really what these backward lunatics want or even understand what it means. The whole world, including the Islamic world witnessed not too long ago what kind of rule the Taliban, backed by foreign monsters and certain western countries, established in Afghanistan. If that kind of terror is their idea of glory days of Islam, then the Afghans who fought them for years and finally celebrated happily their downfall must not be muslims or be completely out of their minds or both! huh.gif

These people are the enemies of mankind as a whole; the west or the east do not exist in their thoughts (that is if they have any, of course)! They don't even mind bombing mosques and muslim shrines. There is no way the west could succeed in that fight without substantial help from the muslim world. In fact it would be a big help from the west to the muslims if certain western countries realized their mistakes in supporting lunatics and dictators in exchange for short-term, insignificant political or economic gains. It is a fatal error and a bad fall in the trap set by these murderers to believe that this phenomenon ONLY concerns the west and that it's only their fight.

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zephyr
can you agree tho that Islam seems to have a much more pronouced extreme element

No! no.gif More pronounced than what? I think it's best to leave Islam out of this since as mentioned before, muslims themselves are the first victims of terrorists. Extremism is basically a negative human behaviour independent of culture or idealogy. Extremism is not created by islam. There are extrmists everywhere, it's just that those extremists born in islamic cultures use islam for their extremism and those born in America use nationalism as a basis for their extremism and those born in a Jewish family, use judaism to express their extreme nature, just to mention a few examples of a global phenomenon; they are all basically the same, just born and raised in different cultures that's all. If these terrorists were anywhere near what they claim to be and were fighting on behalf of Islam and against non-muslims, then they wouldn't be terrorizing muslims and messing up their lives and countries as they have been doing up to now. So, I don't think this is a war of religions as these thugs would want us to believe, but a war between moderation and extremism, between progress and regress. yes.gif

By the way, if the very few mass murderers who get so much attention because they kill represent anything of islam at all, what on earth do the the rest of the one billion peaceful muslims with no significant media coverage and who are themselves sometimes victims of these murderers represent then? huh.gif

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bathory

the difference is that a neo-nazi or klansmen in the US would be stigmatised from the outset, at least in australia (i can't speak of any other muslim cultures), the radical element of islam is for all intents and purposes tolerated and protected by the muslim community.

We had some muslim cleric fellow preaching about how women who wear sexy clothes become 'elegible' for rape, the muslim community than makes a whole heap of excuses for him saying he didn't mean it blah blah blah

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I am me
Extremism is basically a negative human behaviour independent of culture or idealogy. Extremism is not created by islam. There are extrmists everywhere, it's just that those extremists born in islamic cultures use islam for their extremism and those born in America use nationalism as a basis for their extremism and those born in a Jewish family, use judaism to express their extreme nature, just to mention a few examples of a global phenomenon; they are all basically the same, just born and raised in different cultures that's all.

good point

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I am me
i'm not saying they simply hate our freedom,  they hate our western culture, compare the taliban run Afghanistan to the US, realise that taliban run Afghanistan is what these people dig

we build army bases on their land and we control their governments and terrorist groups to suit our immediate needs/wants. to me that seems more logical, it would p*** me off the most if they did the same things to us.

no you see thats what p***es of your average joe, or at least bugs them (unless of course they dig the west), there is an idealogy behind islamic terrorism, it isn't simply a reaction to western influence in the Middle East. They want to recreate the Islamic empires of old, definately not a good thing i would imagine.

602117[/snapback]

how did the old islamic empires deal with the old usa? they didn't.

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gollum

America isn't old enough to know the old Islamic empire, not first hand anyway.

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bathory
how did the old islamic empires deal with the old usa? they didn't.

whats your point?

the old Islamic empires were aggressive both militarily (the first crusade was a result of many many years of islamic agression and its by the sword conversions, the byzantine empire was in dire straights, and with islam pushing its way up through spain, even making it to france at one point) my point is that these guys are somewhat like the hardcore zionists, the only difference is that these guys want the world and they want it like it was back in the middle ages, all in the name of religion.

Will they ever get the world? i think its unlikely, but we shouldn't have to tolerate aggression from a group that can be quelled, this can only be done by fixing up the middle east as a whole.

you would have to be insane to think that the US is the cause and only target.

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zephyr
the radical element of islam is for all intents and purposes tolerated and protected by the muslim community

That's simply not true! no.gif I refere you to my previous post regarding the Afghan muslim community and their long fight against the Taliban extremists. The muslims in Afghanistan were fighting those lunatics long before anybody in the west even realized what the Taliban and their monstrous friends were all about.

We had some muslim cleric fellow preaching about how women who wear sexy clothes become 'elegible' for rape

As far as I know raping women for any reason is NOT part of the Islamic teaching and culture. huh.gif

In fact rape is regarded as a big sin in Islam, the punishment for such an act is equal to that of murder. Whoever has said what you quote in your post is not preaching Islam and has to be arrested for inciting violence, even if he has a beard and a turban and claims to be preaching the word of god. geek.gif

with islam pushing its way up through spain

Interesting that you mention Spain. The Kalifs of Andalucia had gotten so corrupt that it finally led to their downfall. If they were strictly following Islam and were in anyway representing Islam, they wouldn't have gotten so rotten as to sign their own end. In fact most of what you are refering to as 'islamic empires' were just mundane, earthly powers that had used Islam to gain social, political and economic power, and like all powers, they got corrupted and disappeared from the face of the earth. They were nowhere near implementing Islam or its teachings in their power bases. no.gif

this can only be done by fixing up the middle east as a whole.

And believe me it's not the west that can do that, not alone anyway, and not when they themselves are part of the game and have not hesitated to install and support dictators and fanatics of all kinds in this region. Anybody thinking along the lines of a holy war that the innocent, progressist westerners have to fight against the guilty, backward middle easterners and muslims has completely misunderstood the world they live in! yes.gif

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bathory

Zephyr, i think its irrelevant that these guys aren't considered 'true' muslims, it would be like me saying a christian wouldnt have to worry about a bunch of catholic abortion clinic bombers because catholics aren't 'real' christians etc i'll clarify that i understand where you are coming from, and since its just you saying it on a message board i understand, but i think when islamic communities remain silent about the extremist elements growing in their ranks, the whole "they aren't real muslims" comes off as the "its not our problem" line

What the islamic communities throughtout the world need to do is be vocal in their opposition of such teachings, sitting back and being quiet isn't going help chance the perception of islam as a religion that is tolerant of extremists, i mean seeing countries like Niger ( i think it was that country) adopting Sharia law isn't helping the public image of Islam either.

And believe me it's not the west that can do that, not alone anyway, and not when they themselves are part of the game and have not hesitated to install and support dictators and fanatics of all kinds in this region. Anybody thinking along the lines of a holy war that the innocent, progressist westerners have to fight against the guilty, backward middle easterners and muslims has completely misunderstood the world they live in!

i agree with the overall message of what you are saying here, i mean look at lebanon, definately a good sign if things keep going this way. On the other hand, i think criticisms regarding the support of dictators and fanatics fail to take into account the greater context in which they occured. Imagine if Soviet Russia had taken afghanistan? Imagine if soviet backed Iran had succeeded in taking the gulf? I think the ME was always going to be a mess after WW2, we just happened to get this mess as opposed to any of the other alternatives:)

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I am me
how did the old islamic empires deal with the old usa? they didn't.

whats your point?

the old Islamic empires were aggressive both militarily (the first crusade was a result of many many years of islamic agression and its by the sword conversions, the byzantine empire was in dire straights, and with islam pushing its way up through spain, even making it to france at one point) my point is that these guys are somewhat like the hardcore zionists, the only difference is that these guys want the world and they want it like it was back in the middle ages, all in the name of religion.

Will they ever get the world? i think its unlikely, but we shouldn't have to tolerate aggression from a group that can be quelled, this can only be done by fixing up the middle east as a whole.

you would have to be insane to think that the US is the cause and only target.

603763[/snapback]

what is george bush doing? he has some great idea that all nations should be democratic, and he forces them to become such by killing people. this sounds no different to me. we have military bases all around the world. looks like the USA government has done just what you described. you just happen to be on the winning side at the moment.

Edited by I am me

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zephyr

bathory; I'm not sure about the validity of that analogy between the catholics and the issue of abortion and the case at hand. What I'm sure about though is that one can only recognize a muslim by his acts. Encouraging rape, committing mass murders, kidnapping of innocent civilians, bombing mosques, hitting planes full of passengers into buildings, etc, are not parts of the Islamic idealogy and people committing such acts can not possibly be muslims by definition, even if they say they are and others choose to believe them.

'Muslim communities doing nothing about extremists growing in their ranks', is a generalization that does not quite describe the reality of things. The muslims in Afghanistan were more than vocal in their opposition to extremism and terrorism, and the Afghan case is a good contemporary example of the invalidity of the above generalization. The world was silence when the Afghans were putting their lives on the line in fighting Taliban extremism. Taliban that had taken power by the forced overthrow of the government in Afghanistan with full support from the Pakistani military and more than full blessing of the Americans that were only thinking about containing Iran and the contracts concerning a certain oil pipe line. So, whose problem do you think the rise of extremists to power in Afghanistan was? Who was more vocal in their opposition to the Taliban, the silent West or the Afghan muslims themselves who saw the monsters imposed on them from outside?

BTW, I never claimed that extremism is not the problem of the muslim world. It's the problem of everybody, a problem that has been caused by local dictators and monsters as well as decades of blind intervention by outsiders with total disregard for the well-being and the rights of the local populations.

You mentioned Iran and the hypothetical situation of the soviets taking over the Persian Gulf; if I understood you correctly. Even if we admit that such a possibility was very real, how does this justify supporting a dictator for 35 years? How does it justify the fact that one could disappear in the depth of the Salt Lake in central Iran just because one was in possession of a book that didn't please the US backed dictators? How does it justify the systematic torture and execution of people who dared voice their opinions? How does it justify the overthrow of a democratically elected government just because they nationalized the Iranian oil and displeased the oil companies backed by British and American governments? Doesn't this lead to extremism in your opinion? What has Islam got to do with short-sighted, agressive policies of world powers in creating extremism? Using your own logic, could we conclude that western 'democracies' are tolerant of dictators and extremists as well and that there are not enough voices raised even in democratic countries against such policies? Since I don't want to occupy all the memory space available to this site, I will avoid discussing the head lunatic, Saddam himself and the support he got from the west even after he had managed to gas the Kurds, with the whole thing going almost unnoticed in the west. rolleyes.gif

To tackle properly the problem of extremism and terrorism, we should all admit that the origins of the problem are global and that the whole world is responsible for it. To sit back and say' it's all the fault of those uncivilized middle easterners with their backward religion that encourages extremism and that we, the poor civilized westerns are the ONLY victims of extremists and terrorists and have nothing to do with their existance', is erasing the problem and its roots instead of finding a solution for its treatment. original.gif

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Babs
honestly i swear i switch on fox news for a chuckle each day and if one day went by where they DIDNT mention 9/11 then i would be shocked.

its akin to English commentators failing to metion 1966 regardles of the circumstances lol.

601060[/snapback]

You think this is a chuckle?

post-3665-1115313801_thumb.jpg

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Babs

......or this?

post-3665-1115314309_thumb.jpg

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