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Will religion ever end?


eckogangsta

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user posted image Beautiful LB, just beautiful.

If you wrote this @ work, I'd love to read you on your day off!    wink2.gif  original.gif

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Why thank you Goddess blush.gif

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However, science states that physical things have an explanation, and can be proved. Science isn't a study of a supernatural force. It's the study of elements and physical things.

What are you talking about? A wave isnt a physical thing nor an element, yet science studies them.

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What kind of "wave" are you talking about?

Yes, but everything in science comes from something else. With every action, there is a reaction. Rain comes from clouds, clouds come from evaporation of water...etc...etc...and these things that cause this came from the BB to begin with. The question is, what did the BB come from?

Not everything in science comes from something else. Thats why science is looking into the possibility that something simply always existed before the BB.

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Really? Like what?

Why would a religious person "consider the possibility that there is no creator" when there is no explaination from science to begin with?

Sure there is. And he would consider the possibility in order to not be closed minded, because theres always the possibility that the person is wrong. By what you just said, you're basically describing every religious person as arrogent and egotistical because there is no chance that they're wrong.

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I never said that. I'm just saying there is no reason to drop their beliefs when there is nothing for them to think otherwise.

Name one explaination that caused the BB to begin with.

Whatever caused the BB could simply have always existed. How about that?

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Thats not good enough. The things in the universe are physical things. Science should be able to explain physical things, and their origin, and how they formed. Again, this is something beyond human comprehension

Even so, that explaination will rely on physical things, and the same question will arise for those.

What if it relies on a supernatural thing and not a physical thing? Supernatural doesnt = god necessairly...

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Well, then what would you classify it as?

Yes, but science should be able to prove itself. They are based on laws. Supernatural things are not based on physical laws.

Science is able to prove itsself, but not always right away. Religion should be able to prove itsself too.

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Religion can't prove anything. But it can explain in certain areas where science cannot.

You've still not gave any substance to back up your claim whistling2.gif

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I don't know how to make myself anymore clear. I was hoping people would see this on a "common sense" point of view.

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So you think all religious people think they should use "deadly force" to get people to agree with them?

no. i am saying has been done and still is done by some.

in contrast, i don't know of any scientific organizations/individuals that have ever used force to impose their views.

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As was posted earlier, science is still a relatively new practice (last 500 years or so). Give science the chance to be the dominant world-view and you might see this change.

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So you think all religious people think they should use "deadly force" to get people to agree with them?

no. i am saying has been done and still is done by some.

in contrast, i don't know of any scientific organizations/individuals that have ever used force to impose their views.

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As was posted earlier, science is still a relatively new practice (last 500 years or so). Give science the chance to be the dominant world-view and you might see this change.

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then it would not be real science, but a religion made of a science.

the true nature of science is to constantly challenge and discover. the first rule is that nothing is absolute (only absolute wrt the conditions we subscribe). science is about descention because it is through multiple perspectives and approaches that we discover things (if everyone thinks the same approach, we become stagnant, fall into an equalibrium, and ultimately collapse).

in science, as in life, the power is in the dynamics.

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Then the BB and evolution should be dismissed as well, since there is no proof.

But there is evidence for those.

Yeah, Columbus believed in a creator and his discovery into the unknown was seriously hindered.

Yeah, and the dark ages had nothing to do with religion.

Because many Christians embrace science. How many scientists embrace Christianity?

1. What does that change?

2. Are you saying now that its not religious people, but christians in particular?

3. A good portion of scientists are religious.

Again, I said "supernatural force." Supernaturalism does not pertain to physical things.

Ahh, so you admit that theres something that can exist without needing a creator?

Then by all means, enlighten me.

People here are saying there simply could have always been something.

1. Exactly

2. Likewise

Hence it is just as closed minded to think one thing as to think the other.

I fail to see why you think this, because there in no explaination from science.

Sure there is an explaination from scientists, just as there is an explaination from religious people.

If you have an explanation, then tell me. I have already stated that I cannot explain how God was created because it is a supernatural force that defies science. Therefore, it cannot be understood. However, science stating something should be able to back it up, or at least have some idea as to how, or why.

Science's ability to back itsself up is completely unimportant to the whole argument. Simply put, there could be a creator, and there could not be a creator, so its equally closed minded to talk in absolutes about one as it is to talk in absolutes about the other.

Well, then explain to me what made the BB.

1. What if I cant? Would that change anything?

2. For all it matters, I can say a chain reaction of particles colliding. Thats an explaination just like any other.

1. No

Hence it is equally closed minded to talk in absolutes about one as it is to talk in absolutes about the other.

2. There is nothing to suggest what created the BB.

That is completely irrelevant to the whole discussion. I KNOW that no one knows what was around pre big bang... it doesnt matter... all that matters is that its possible that god exists, just like its possible that god doesnt exist, therefor its equally closed minded to talk in absolutes about one as it is to talk in absolutes about the other.

Edited by Stellar
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Ok, so where did the first object come from? (the BB)

1. If I say that we dont know, it doesnt change a thing.

2. For all it matters, I can say it simply always existed. Its a possibility, is it not?

But you cannot tell people who believe that something created them that they are morons.

WTF? We're not even talking about that! Holy ****!

The laws of science.

Specify.

What kind of "wave" are you talking about?

You dont know what a wave is?

Really? Like what?

Quarks. Leptons. A singularity. God. A bunch of different possibilities.

I never said that. I'm just saying there is no reason to drop their beliefs when there is nothing for them to think otherwise.

Then quit going off a tangent and stick to the topic at hand! You claimed that it is more closed minded for a scientist to disregard god than it is for a religious person to disregard the nonexistance of god. Here, I'll make it easy for you, simply, say you were wrong! You look like you're grasping at straws right now!

Thats not good enough.

Sure it is. Its a possibility just like any other.

The things in the universe are physical things.

You do realise that in the BBT, before the BB, there was NO universe?

Plus, would you consider energy as a physical thing?

Also, religion then, following your logic, should be able to explain the origines of god.

Well, then what would you classify it as?

Classify what as? Supernatural could be some inanimate thing for all it matters.

Religion can't prove anything. But it can explain in certain areas where science cannot.

Science can explain things just as much as religion...

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Then the BB and evolution should be dismissed as well, since there is no proof.

But there is evidence for those.

Yeah, Columbus believed in a creator and his discovery into the unknown was seriously hindered.

Yeah, and the dark ages had nothing to do with religion.

Because many Christians embrace science. How many scientists embrace Christianity?

1. What does that change?

2. Are you saying now that its not religious people, but christians in particular?

3. A good portion of scientists are religious.

Again, I said "supernatural force." Supernaturalism does not pertain to physical things.

Ahh, so you admit that theres something that can exist without needing a creator?

Then by all means, enlighten me.

People here are saying there simply could have always been something.

1. Exactly

2. Likewise

Hence it is just as closed minded to think one thing as to think the other.

I fail to see why you think this, because there in no explaination from science.

Sure there is an explaination from scientists, just as there is an explaination from religious people.

If you have an explanation, then tell me. I have already stated that I cannot explain how God was created because it is a supernatural force that defies science. Therefore, it cannot be understood. However, science stating something should be able to back it up, or at least have some idea as to how, or why.

Science's ability to back itsself up is completely unimportant to the whole argument. Simply put, there could be a creator, and there could not be a creator, so its equally closed minded to talk in absolutes about one as it is to talk in absolutes about the other.

Well, then explain to me what made the BB.

1. What if I cant? Would that change anything?

2. For all it matters, I can say a chain reaction of particles colliding. Thats an explaination just like any other.

1. No

Hence it is equally closed minded to talk in absolutes about one as it is to talk in absolutes about the other.

2. There is nothing to suggest what created the BB.

That is completely irrelevant to the whole discussion. I KNOW that no one knows what was around pre big bang... it doesnt matter... all that matters is that its possible that god exists, just like its possible that god doesnt exist, therefor its equally closed minded to talk in absolutes about one as it is to talk in absolutes about the other.

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ok

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But you cannot tell people who believe that something created them that they are morons.

WTF? We're not even talking about that! Holy ****!

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Calm down. And remember, you have called me a "moron" in the past.

You dont know what a wave is?

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Did I stutter? Why else would I ask, "what kind of "WAVE" are you talking about?"

I never said that. I'm just saying there is no reason to drop their beliefs when there is nothing for them to think otherwise.

Then quit going off a tangent and stick to the topic at hand! You claimed that it is more closed minded for a scientist to disregard god than it is for a religious person to disregard the nonexistance of god. Here, I'll make it easy for you, simply, say you were wrong! You look like you're grasping at straws right now!

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Ok, let me tell you this once more....... A person believes that a creator made them. They are not sure exactly how. However, this is the best explaination they have. Now, if a scientist comes up to them and tried to tell them they are wrong, normally the scientist would have some reasoning as to why he thought they were wrong. You would think the scientist would be able to tell them some other alternative as to why they were wrong about a creator. However, they have nothing to make them think otherwise. So, therefore why should a religious person dump their beliefs, when there is no alternative way of explaining it? Why should a religious person go from believing in something, to not believing in anything, when there is nothing there to change their mind in the first place? My point is, if there is nothing scientifically to make them think otherwise, then why ditch their idea?

That would be like me throwing a perfectly new pair of shoes away just because somebody else told me they thought they were gloves without explaining as to why they thought that, or even so, them having no idea as to what gloves were to begin with.

The things in the universe are physical things.

You do realise that in the BBT, before the BB, there was NO universe?

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Yes. But in knowing this, it makes the theory of the BB even more unbelievable since there was no space for matter to develop itself in the first place.

Plus, would you consider energy as a physical thing?

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Depends.

Also, religion then, following your logic, should be able to explain the origines of god.

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I've already said that I cannot explain the origin of God. He is something that is not physical. It's impossible to even comprehend, much less explain. However, I expect more from science, hence it based on proofs.

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And remember, you have called me a "moron" in the past.

1. We're not talking about that.

2. Whats your point? I call lots of people different stuff after they insult me or attack me.

Did I stutter? Why else would I ask, "what kind of "WAVE" are you talking about?"

Radio wave. Micro wave. Macro wave. Whatever wave.

So, therefore why should a religious person dump their beliefs, when there is no alternative way of explaining it?

1. We're NOT talking about dumping beliefs, we're talking about acknowledging the very real possibility of being wrong.

2. There are plenty of alternative ways of explaining it, hence its closed minded to use absolutes!

Why should a religious person go from believing in something, to not believing in anything, when there is nothing there to change their mind in the first place? My point is, if there is nothing scientifically to make them think otherwise, then why ditch their idea?

We're NOT TALKING about ditching their idea, we're talking about admitting the possibility of being wrong, even though you think you're right.

Yes. But in knowing this, it makes the theory of the BB even more unbelievable since there was no space for matter to develop itself in the first place.

Who says that there was no space? (space as in place)

I've already said that I cannot explain the origin of God.

Poor excuse...

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And remember, you have called me a "moron" in the past.

1. We're not talking about that.

2. Whats your point? I call lots of people different stuff after they insult me or attack me.

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I never attacked you to begin with, but its in the past now. I was just letting you know.

Yes. But in knowing this, it makes the theory of the BB even more unbelievable since there was no space for matter to develop itself in the first place.

Who says that there was no space? (space as in place)

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Matter cannot form unless it has something to form into. Correct me if I am wrong.

I've already said that I cannot explain the origin of God.

Poor excuse...

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You try explaining on how a God exists. However, you don't believe in a god so you would just say "simple, there is no god, therefore he does not exist."

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@amalgamut:

even though i consider gods to be a construct only (existing in the minds of men), i have put some effort into formulating what would be a god (maybe it doesn't show all the time but i make every effort for all of my personal theories to account and work under the conditions of there being "gods"/creators as well as not - it is the only way it can be robust enough for me. - account for all possibilities/probabilities is the only approach to finding the answers) thumbsup.gif

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@amalgamut:

even though i consider gods to be a construct only (existing in the minds of men),  i have put some effort into formulating what would be a god (maybe it doesn't show all the time but i make every effort for all of my personal theories to account and work under the conditions of there being "gods"/creators as well as not - it is the only way it can be robust enough for me. - account for all possibilities/probabilities is the only approach to finding the answers) thumbsup.gif

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Yes, thats a good way to look at things.

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Matter cannot form unless it has something to form into. Correct me if I am wrong.

all you need is a dimension for matter to exist, space just happens to be a combonation of the 3 known spacial dimensions and time rolled up into one, you dont need "Space" or even a universe for matter to exist, just the dimension for it to exist in thumbsup.gif

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Matter cannot form unless it has something to form into. Correct me if I am wrong.

And?

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Matter cannot form unless it has something to form into. Correct me if I am wrong.

And?

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Regarding what seeking said, would there even be a "one dimension" for this matter to form in?

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