Army Objector Calls War "Most Stupid"

[Fluffybunny]

yeah, he knew good and well that he was gonna see stuff that might be disturbing, but still no reason for him to not take responisbility. he needs to grow a pair and be man.

612053[/snapback]

So when are you enlisting? I am certain that there is so much need for Infantry soldiers that your help would be much appreciated. I can arrange for a ride to the recruitment center if you would like. I like to see when folks put their money where their mouths are.

Although I do not like that fact that he disobayed a direct order; I can understand his point of view. All the training in the world does not prepare you for battle and what the effects are on your mind and body. Army training uses every trick available to gloss over the fact that you are killing a human being; they are reffered to as the enemy, rapists, murderers and every other thing in the world.

There is absolutely no connection between training and real combat, plain and simple. None. Traing allows you to know how to shoot a rifle well; it allows you to learn how to "shoot, move, and communicate" which is all fine and well until you look into the eyes of a person that you are about to murder. It all goes out the window at that point.

I do not have the time right now to go into the psychological aspects of combat but suffice it to say that some people have a better ability to "Compartmentalize" the act of murdering another human being without great negative impacts to their psyche. Those people are in a minority(I happen to be in that bunch for better or worse), the rest of people in a combat situation have varying levels of difficulty in objectifying the killing of another human. It is a spectrum that people fall into and on one end people can kill ruthlessly without remorse(John Wayne Gacy ring a bell?) and on the other end are folks that would rather die than hurt another human.

We all fall into different spots on that spectrum. During training you do not know where you fit. Training is meant to get you pumped up for fighting; to get you so incredible amped up you act without regard for consequences of your actions.

I say again that all of the training in the world can compare to one single firefight, or looking into the eyes of someone whom you are about to murder. This guy didn't know what he was going to experience and what the effects are of combat until he got there; just like everyone else who goes through the same thing.

There were so many gung-ho rambos in my unit that ended up wetting themselves the first time a bullet was fired in their direction; there were also many quiet fellows that ended up being the strongest fighters in the unit.

You just don't know what your reactions are until you are there.

For people who have never been in the military(Dads don't count), or been in combat to pass judgement is just hillarious to me; it is the epitomy of an armchair quarterback. You can tell yourself that you would react in a certain manner to a certain situation, but until you are in that situation it is all speculation on your behalf and for you folks to pass judgement without walking a mile in the mans shoes(or boots in this case) is laughable.

Yes you do take an oath to support and defend the constitution of the US against all enemies foreign and domestic. Depending on where you fit on that spectrum I mentioned; you may or may not be able to keep your word to do so by killing people. It may be possible for this guy to work in a support role, it may not, but the bottom line is that it is not for you to judge that until you have been in the same situation.

I was a combat medic in the US Army between 1987 and 1995; I was in Kuwait and Iraq. I saw combat up close many times and I saw the effects of war first hand. Although I personally would not do what this man did; I have enough knowledge of the situation to respect his wishes. I understand his dilemma. You folks obviously do not.

Head down to your local recruiter and tell them you wish to be an 11Bravo if you'd like to learn more; I am sure they would be more than happy to help you learn more on what I am talking about.

[Michelle]

I know my opinion really doesn't count because I haven't been in that particular situation, but I have an inkling, and I find it very hard to pass judgement. It's not as cut and dried as everyone would like to think.

I'm not even there and I struggle with it every day because of my friends.

[girty1600]

He made his own decision and he'll have his day in court. It's not up to me to judge him.

[Commander CMG]

I know my opinion really doesn't count because I haven't been in that particular situation, but I have an inkling, and I find it very hard to pass judgement. It's not as cut and dried as everyone would like to think.

I'm not even there and I struggle with it every day because of my friends.

613057[/snapback]

your opinion counts as much as mine and FluffyBunny even theough we have both encountered the harsh realities of war, who is to say our opinion is right or wrong we can only comment on what we believe and have experienced, this guy has comitted no real crime, other than accept his life direction now.

I know good Combat soldiers that have done exactly the same thing and this does not make them less a man.

I have seen sh** that is imaginable and I am sure Fluffy knows what I am saying.

Real combat soldiers are very few, many think they are up to it until the sh** actually happens.

PS.. Fluffybunny, it is difficult to talk tough when you have a name like that?

[Michelle]

Thanks XSAS, I needed that...

I don't think the Fluffster has any problem maintaining his masculinity...

[Fluffybunny]

PS.. Fluffybunny, it is difficult to talk tough when you have a name like that?

That was a good one. Well, no I don't...my name kind of keeps everyone on their toes as many assume one thing about me, when that may not be the truth of the matter. Contrast is fun...

I guess I could have picked a name like Thor or Rambo or Wardog, but that really isn't me. I was a medic, now I am a firefighter(soon to be paramedic as well). I like to help people. I have an aspect of my past in the Army where I did not help people(some I did, but it is awkward having to shoot someone and then try to patch them up afterwards ), and I can tell you that helping saving people and helping them live is far better than helping them die...

As anyone who has been around here for any length of time, I hate it when folks pass judgement on military folks, when they do not have any idea of what the life is like, or what might lead up to the decisions that are made. It is one of the situations that I am least tolerant of, and it happens often around here...

Oh, and Michelle is a babe.

[Michelle]

Fluffy, you flatter me...

That's enough, we don't need to get this thread off track.

[TheOriginalF]

To everyone calling this man a coward, stop making assumptions and passing judgements on people that you don't know who are dealing with situations that you can't understand. Not everything is as black and white and clean cut as we would like it too be, he made his decision and it was his to make. Who are any of you to pass judgement on him?

[Commander CMG]

PS.. Fluffybunny, it is difficult to talk tough when you have a name like that?

That was a good one. Well, no I don't...my name kind of keeps everyone on their toes as many assume one thing about me, when that may not be the truth of the matter. Contrast is fun...

I guess I could have picked a name like Thor or Rambo or Wardog, but that really isn't me. I was a medic, now I am a firefighter(soon to be paramedic as well). I like to help people. I have an aspect of my past in the Army where I did not help people(some I did, but it is awkward having to shoot someone and then try to patch them up afterwards ), and I can tell you that helping saving people and helping them live is far better than helping them die...

As anyone who has been around here for any length of time, I hate it when folks pass judgement on military folks, when they do not have any idea of what the life is like, or what might lead up to the decisions that are made. It is one of the situations that I am least tolerant of, and it happens often around here...

Oh, and Michelle is a babe.

613213[/snapback]

hey.. you get my vote.

[Commander CMG]

PS.. Fluffybunny, it is difficult to talk tough when you have a name like that?

That was a good one. Well, no I don't...my name kind of keeps everyone on their toes as many assume one thing about me, when that may not be the truth of the matter. Contrast is fun...

I guess I could have picked a name like Thor or Rambo or Wardog, but that really isn't me. I was a medic, now I am a firefighter(soon to be paramedic as well). I like to help people. I have an aspect of my past in the Army where I did not help people(some I did, but it is awkward having to shoot someone and then try to patch them up afterwards ), and I can tell you that helping saving people and helping them live is far better than helping them die...

As anyone who has been around here for any length of time, I hate it when folks pass judgement on military folks, when they do not have any idea of what the life is like, or what might lead up to the decisions that are made. It is one of the situations that I am least tolerant of, and it happens often around here...

Oh, and Michelle is a babe.

613213[/snapback]

The problem is we are too close.

[Scar]

Im sure i made that same mistake before.

Fluffy's name is just a Punning Clan

[Mekorig]

and the armcharis kid general disapears....wht happening to them? they dont like when someone rebuke their hiper-patroitics tamtrums whit something of razon and common sense?

[__Kratos__]

and the armcharis kid general disapears....wht happening to them? they dont like when someone rebuke their hiper-patroitics tamtrums whit something of razon and common sense?

613333[/snapback]

Well... I'm back, if you were talking about me... or PadawanOsswe. Not sure. I still believe he should be punished.

Fluffy, you agreed to punish jeremy for deserting but you wouldn't want to punish this guy?

TheOriginalF Posted Today, 06:03 PM

  To everyone calling this man a coward, stop making assumptions and passing judgements on people that you don't know who are dealing with situations that you can't understand. Not everything is as black and white and clean cut as we would like it too be, he made his decision and it was his to make. Who are any of you to pass judgement on him?

I'm going on that he broke his oath to serve and protect. He either broke that oath or he didn't. Simple as that. There is no grey area in there. "Do or Do Not, there is no try!" - Yoda

[PadawanOsswe]

To fluffybunny:I would be GLAD to enlist, problem is I am not old enough. and unless it is prven that this guy has a mental illness from combat, thern fine dont send him back, BUT if this guy is perfectly fine he is not answering Uncle Sams orders to complete another tour! everyone else in the military have to complete tour after tour, this guy in my opinion is deciding to be a coward. and if it is proven that he is not well in the head, then I'll shut up and change my opinion. but untill then he has not served, by betraying his comrads and bashing the war h has lost all credibility for service by refusing service.

[Commander CMG]

and the armcharis kid general disapears....wht happening to them? they dont like when someone rebuke their hiper-patroitics tamtrums whit something of razon and common sense?

613333[/snapback]

Well... I'm back, if you were talking about me... or PadawanOsswe. Not sure. I still believe he should be punished.

Fluffy, you agreed to punish jeremy for deserting but you wouldn't want to punish this guy?

TheOriginalF Posted Today, 06:03 PM

  To everyone calling this man a coward, stop making assumptions and passing judgements on people that you don't know who are dealing with situations that you can't understand. Not everything is as black and white and clean cut as we would like it too be, he made his decision and it was his to make. Who are any of you to pass judgement on him?

I'm going on that he broke his oath to serve and protect. He either broke that oath or he didn't. Simple as that. There is no grey area in there. "Do or Do Not, there is no try!" - Yoda

613602[/snapback]

He will be punished by military court.

[Fluffybunny]

Fluffy, you agreed to punish jeremy for deserting but you wouldn't want to punish this guy? 

I never said once that he shouldn't be punished.

My point is that no one here is qualified to judge him for his actions; plain and simple. He will have to answer for his decisions just as anyone else in his position would, but I think the fact that anyone here(myself included) trying to call him a coward or lazy is just rediculous and coming from folks that have no concept of what he has gone through.

The only time that I would respect the opinion of someone in regards to this matter is if they served with him and knew him. Otherwise it is a bunch of hot air from folks that think that they know what the heck is going on in the world; most of which have never even served in the military let alone had to go to war.

In my opinion if you are too young to serve, it is a red flag that you really don't have any idea what is going on here. Paddawan, when you get old enough to join the Army, enlist in the Infantry and serve a couple tours of duty in Iraq( I bet we will still be there then) and then get back to me on how you feel about being in a war and how that effects you.

I'd be willing to bet that you will have much more compassion for someone else in the same position.

Edited May 10, 2005 by Fluffybunny

[SnakeProphet]

Fluffy, you agreed to punish jeremy for deserting but you wouldn't want to punish this guy? 

I never said once that he shouldn't be punished.

My point is that no one here is qualified to judge him for his actions; plain and simple. He will have to answer for his decisions just as anyone else in his position would, but I think the fact that anyone here(myself included) trying to call him a coward or lazy is just rediculous and coming from folks that have no concept of what he has gone through.

The only time that I would respect the opinion of someone in regards to this matter is if they served with him and knew him. Otherwise it is a bunch of hot air from folks that think that they know what the heck is going on in the world; most of which have never even served in the military let alone had to go to war.

In my opinion if you are too young to serve, it is a red flag that you really don't have any idea what is going on here. Paddawan, when you get old enough to join the Army, enlist in the Infantry and serve a couple tours of duty in Iraq( I bet we will still be there then) and then get back to me on how you feel about being in a war and how that effects you.

I'd be willing to bet that you will have much more compassion for someone else in the same position.

614158[/snapback]

If the situtation doesn t change, he won t see much.A few freedom fighters fighting a desperate war, that s all.Nothing compared to WW2 or Vietnam.

[gollum]

I think fluffs will agree that we have been down this road before, many, many times with other armchair generals on the site.

Like XSAS and fluffs said, war is a horrible, terrible and sometimes very surreal place to be.

I'll give a small account of a soldier fighting in the Falklands war.

Imagine the situation. 3am in a rocky outcrop in the middle of no-where, pitch black and the only light source is from schemulies(sp) floating aloft giving that earie glow that casts shadows in all directions giving the impression that everything is moving.

Suddenly a firefight ensues, 2 bit tracer flying all around said soldier and fire control orders suddenly being screamed from everyone it seemed. Suddenly the soldiers best friend is slammed in the chest with a couple of rounds, one being tracer which leaves a burned flesh mixed with cordite smell in the air all around him.

As if from nowhere an order comes "Fix bayonets!!!!!!". the soldier soon realizes that all around him are enemy soldiers doing what he had been doing for the last 30 minutes, fighting for his life. Now comes the surreal part. The only enemy he claims to have killed where those that looked threatening to him. If someone looked more scared than he did he looked for a threat, he did'nt kill indescriminately, he choose his victims.

By the end of the firefight he had killed 8 enemy soldiers and wounded 6 others.

The rest of his section had notched up similar kills.

When it all calmed down and the prisoners had been rounded up he sat down and cried his eyes out. Bawling like a child and asking for his mum. It also transpired that he had soiled himself during the firefight.

Does that make him a coward because he cried and screamed for his mother and soiled himself?

Now that people is war never ever say any soldier is a coward unless you can say you have walked in his or any other soldiers shoes.

[Commander CMG]

That was very well put.

[gollum]

That account came from a very close and dear friend of mine who, sadly, is now gone to the there side.

That man was my uncle. A man who I respected and loved with all my heart.

He died aged 42.

[TheOriginalF]

I'm going on that he broke his oath to serve and protect. He either broke that oath or he didn't. Simple as that. There is no grey area in there. "Do or Do Not, there is no try!" - Yoda

613602[/snapback]

So your making the assumption that just because he broke an oath it makes him a coward? There is a grey area, you can't swear to support and defend something that you may no longer agree with, should he have just shut his mouth and continued killing because that is what he was supposed to do? There is no honor in that. At what point does this man have a right to stand up a say I've had enough and I'm not going to take it anymore? There is a myriad of reasons why the man wouldn't want to fight and none of us are in the position to understand his reasoning.

So I'll ask my question again who are you to pass judgement on this man? Are you so much better than he is? Have you ever been put to the test to see if you would hold up in the same situation?

[I am me]

It takes quite a bit of guts for this guy to do what he is doing now. Yes, he isn't going back to Iraq but he faces jail time. I would do the same thing he is doing if I was forced to fight. Yes, he did enlist. He probably wanted to protect his country, serve his country. Fighting in Iraq is doing neither. Fighting in Iraq is killing a bunch of people who don't want you there because some neo-cons in the white house want it that way.

I would assume all of you that are mad that this guy is not over seas killing people are also ones who at the same time do not condone murder.

War is not about supporting your comrades or basking in glory while you kill the evil doers on the other side. War in itself is evil. It changes people for ever. This guy was obviously changed for the better. Good for him that he is standing up for what he believes. I hope he convinces people along the way.

[__Kratos__]

So your making the assumption that just because he broke an oath it makes him a coward? There is a grey area, you can't swear to support and defend something that you may no longer agree with, should he have just shut his mouth and continued killing because that is what he was supposed to do? There is no honor in that. At what point does this man have a right to stand up a say I've had enough and I'm not going to take it anymore? There is a myriad of reasons why the man wouldn't want to fight and none of us are in the position to understand his reasoning.

Sure, suck it up. He made a choice 10 odd years ago to enlist, and he should stick with it. He will be punished regardless. What would you call him for deserting? A deserter is a coward...

So I'll ask my question again who are you to pass judgement on this man? Are you so much better than he is? Have you ever been put to the test to see if you would hold up in the same situation?

Well, I am an America that doesn't like deserters. They are weak, so I suppose it is better off that they don't go into combat anymore, but put in a military prison for a much longer time then their tour and the living conditions can't be pretty. No, I haven't been put through the test, yet. I will mostly likely be one day though, because I enlisted in December for 19K - Armor crewman (Abram Tank).

[Commander CMG]

Armchair warriors, see few movies play a few video games, you make me sick talking about something you have no idea about. The guy deserted and will be charged through military court, as for calling him a coward, I completely disagree.

[PadawanOsswe]

did I say that if one soiled themselves that they are a coward? no, because soiling yourself is common in battle, this guy is unwilling to do his duty people, he is breaking his oath to the people and the military. and actually, he may not be a coward instead maybe lazy. and to fluffybunny, sure I'll join the infantry someday, but I am joining the Marines. and if I come back after battle, I sure as hell wouldnt bash it and betray my comrads like this guy.