Army Objector Calls War "Most Stupid"

[turbonium]

It's the Army's error because they disburse combat pay based on the deployment rosters, which he wasn't on.

On January 5, 2005, Sgt. Kevin Benderman refused to deploy for a second tour of duty in Iraq with the Army’s Third Infantry Division after being told to fire on children by a chaplain. Seventeen other soldiers from his unit went AWOL, two tried to kill themselves, and one asked a relative to shoot him in the leg so he could avoid deploying.

And who are they grilling over the coals? The only one who spoke out about it!!

Now, since you want to drive home the legalities of the issue being the important thing, you claim he is a deserter. I hate to break the news, but the Iraq 'war' is ILLEGAL. He is not deserting a legally valid war. The President does not have the authority to place America and her sons at war. Article II, Section 8 in the Constitution of the United States is clear. The President as Commander-in-Chief has authority over our troops. But Congress has authority over whether or not we are at war. There was no Declaration of War. Period. It is against the Constitution that America has been put into this mess by Bush

Also, a preemptive attack on Iraq violates the United Nations Charter, which is a treaty and part of the supreme law of the United States under Article 6, clause 2 of the U.S. Constitution. The U.S. signed the UN Charter and we are obligated to uphold the law according to our own Constitution. A treaty that we sign becomes the "law of the land" according to our Constitution.

You can't cherrypick your favorite laws to ignore or enforce as you please. That is what they are now doing by charging him in the Military Tribunal. They are saying "You have failed to deploy for a war that violates International and U.S. Laws!"

[mrmonsoon]

It was something i read on Yahoo news today-i assumed it was the same man-sorry if i was wrong.

If I was, this is probably what will happen to him-downgrade in rank and hard labor.

[warden]

As i said way back ,let the military courtd decide what should be the punishment,and stop sending his wife cowardly emails

[Richdog]

I wish this scenario happened to Kratos and Padawan's family... I wonder what their views would be then?

"My Dad who I have loved and respected all my life is a lazy coward and I hope he goes to jail, he deserves everything he gets, the fricken disgrace. Umm wait..."

But whatever, Kratos and Padawan have come accross as real jerks in this thread, obviously they are too young (Padawan especially judging from his language, typing & grammar) to understand complex emotion and human nature, or just have no compassion for fellow man, despite whether they view an action as wrong or not. Damn ignorant.

Edited May 13, 2005 by Richdog

[warden]

Thats always been mans problem in life,sitting on the other side of the fence always makes it easy to judge anothers actions

Wait untill it comes knocking on your own door then adifferent tune is played,not that i would want that to happen to any one

But you get the drift

[Radioactive Man]

turbonium,

I'm not questioning the validity of your statements, but could you provide sources for your information, or is that speculation/opinion?

Funny you didn't mention all of the illegal activity conducted by the United Nations.

Also, why didn't he say something right after he came back the first time??? Why did he re-enlist on his own free will?

Edited May 13, 2005 by hechtal

[gollum]

Maybe the guy enjoyed soldiering. Maybe the guy just did'nt like firing on children throwing rocks.

[__Kratos__]

I wish this scenario happened to Kratos and Padawan's family... I wonder what their views would be then?

"My Dad who I have loved and respected all my life is a lazy coward and I hope he goes to jail, he deserves everything he gets, the fricken disgrace.  Umm wait..."

But whatever, Kratos and Padawan have come accross as real jerks in this thread, obviously they are too young (Padawan especially judging from his language, typing & grammar) to understand complex emotion and human nature, or just have no compassion for fellow man, despite whether they view an action as wrong or not.  Damn ignorant.

619775[/snapback]

If my dad did that, surely I would be ashamed of him and call him a coward. Really, its the choices we make that deciede who we really are. I will admit I really don't know the affects of the mind because of war, because I have not been to war yet. But out of all those thousands of men and women, why does he have to be "special" and get to quit? This isn't a civillian job where you can put in a 2 weeks notice and ditch. This is the military. They are going to expect you follow your orders and take your oath seriously. Sure, he doesn't want to go over to iraq and fix bradley tanks, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have to. He had an order and he deserted from it. You can call me a jerk all you want, but that is how I feel. This guy gladly took the beneficts, training and big brothers paycheck and then has the guts to say "I quit".

[mrmonsoon]

I was wrong-Please See topic ," I made a mistake"

[Commander CMG]

I wish this scenario happened to Kratos and Padawan's family... I wonder what their views would be then?

"My Dad who I have loved and respected all my life is a lazy coward and I hope he goes to jail, he deserves everything he gets, the fricken disgrace.  Umm wait..."

But whatever, Kratos and Padawan have come accross as real jerks in this thread, obviously they are too young (Padawan especially judging from his language, typing & grammar) to understand complex emotion and human nature, or just have no compassion for fellow man, despite whether they view an action as wrong or not.  Damn ignorant.

619775[/snapback]

If my dad did that, surely I would be ashamed of him and call him a coward. Really, its the choices we make that deciede who we really are. I will admit I really don't know the affects of the mind because of war, because I have not been to war yet. But out of all those thousands of men and women, why does he have to be "special" and get to quit? This isn't a civillian job where you can put in a 2 weeks notice and ditch. This is the military. They are going to expect you follow your orders and take your oath seriously. Sure, he doesn't want to go over to iraq and fix bradley tanks, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have to. He had an order and he deserted from it. You can call me a jerk all you want, but that is how I feel. This guy gladly took the beneficts, training and big brothers paycheck and then has the guts to say "I quit".

620197[/snapback]

So you would follow all orders given to you by your superiors even if that meant killing children throwing rocks at you?

[PadawanOsswe]

I would dis-own my father if he did this. and Richdog what makes Krato's and I so damn ignorant? that we are punishing this guy for breaking his oath? if the guy didnt want to go back all he had to do when he got home was file for Consiencious (sp?) Objector and he would have been home free from another tour, but oh no, got lazy and didnt file, too bad for him.

[warden]

I coulnd not give a monkeys sh-y what any one said to me if asked to fire on children or adults theowinf rocks at me,i would not go back to the army through common sense princibles

What army in this so called civilised day of age would ask a person to shoot a child who was throwing a stone a you ,for f-ck sake is this what the army has come to ,thank goodness i didnt persuade my son to join

[Commander CMG]

I would dis-own my father if he did this. and Richdog what makes Krato's and I so damn ignorant? that we are punishing this guy for breaking his oath? if the guy didnt want to go back all he had to do when he got home was file for Consiencious (sp?) Objector and he would have been home free from another tour, but oh no, got lazy and didnt file, too bad for him.

620391[/snapback]

I am sure if you would have told your Dad you would have dis-owned him if he had done this, then he would have left the Army years ago.. LOL..

The trouble here is there a just a few that seem to condemn this man and pass judgement on his actions quite a few taht have passed there comments here have been involved in actual combat and yet they are the ones backing this guy's actions and supporting him with respect, when do you stop obeying orders from your superiors, would you follow all orders given to you by your commanding officers??

You had a go at me for questioning the ability of US marines... now that is my opinion and it aslo just so happens the opinion of Senior ranked Officials within the USA Military who recognise the need for a more advanced training course for them and it shows when in combat that they need it.. how many helicopters have they tried to shoot down during this Iraq conflict how many fighter planes have been shot down by US patriot missiles?

[__Kratos__]

So you would follow  all orders given to you by your superiors even if that meant killing children throwing rocks at you?

620379[/snapback]

Probably not, if they were not causing a real threat. Without causing a threat, that order would be illegal and it would be a soldier's duty to not follow it. Now, if these kids are really causing a threat with their rocks then sure, fire a couple warning shots at them. In Vietnam, there was a lot of reports of kids being killed. If the kids want to take up arms, then they know they might die.

You had a go at me for questioning the ability of US marines... now that is my opinion and it aslo just so happens the opinion of Senior ranked Officials within the USA Military who recognise the need for a more advanced training course for them and it shows when in combat that they need it.. how many helicopters have they tried to shoot down during this Iraq conflict how many fighter planes have been shot down by US patriot missiles?

620438[/snapback]

I agree there needs to be more training. Sure, they know how to use their toys, but to what degree? Look at all the helicopter crashes, it is insane how many are going down. Idk much about the patriot missiles, so I wouldn't comment on that.

[Commander CMG]

So you would follow  all orders given to you by your superiors even if that meant killing children throwing rocks at you?

620379[/snapback]

Probably not, if they were not causing a real threat. Without causing a threat, that order would be illegal and it would be a soldier's duty to not follow it. Now, if these kids are really causing a threat with their rocks then sure, fire a couple warning shots at them. In Vietnam, there was a lot of reports of kids being killed. If the kids want to take up arms, then they know they might die.

You had a go at me for questioning the ability of US marines... now that is my opinion and it aslo just so happens the opinion of Senior ranked Officials within the USA Military who recognise the need for a more advanced training course for them and it shows when in combat that they need it.. how many helicopters have they tried to shoot down during this Iraq conflict how many fighter planes have been shot down by US patriot missiles?

620438[/snapback]

I agree there needs to be more training. Sure, they know how to use their toys, but to what degree? Look at all the helicopter crashes, it is insane how many are going down. Idk much about the patriot missiles, so I wouldn't comment on that.

620725[/snapback]

Kratos, you don't fire warninig shots at Kids in fact you don't direct warning shots at anyone, stone throwing is no real threat and we are not talking about kids taking arms, hell I would be the first to a bullet between the eye's of anyone that takes up arms against me. This guy was ordered to fire on kids throwing stones on his first tour by his commanding officer... this regardless to how big the stone or how accurate they can throw them is a crime of war... there are rules of engagement that you have to comply to.

As for the marines needing more training... good we both agree, but you would think after shooting down helicopters and fighter planes after the first Iraq War that they would have realised by the time the second war come around where they make the same mistakes by shooting Patriot missiles at fighter planes and blowing the hell out of helicpoters.... IRAQ DON'T HAVE A ****ing AIRFORCE??

Anything above 10 feet belong to the allied troops.

[PadawanOsswe]

the marines are some of the best regular infantry, I dunno what helicopters and planes your talkin bout, I'll have to look it up.

[__Kratos__]

Use deadly force in self-defense and in defending others from death or serious bodily injury;

Source

One other officer swore somebody was throwing rocks at him. Smiling thinly, Donlon replied: "You'll know when one of your privates tells you." It was a point well made; the North Koreans often throw rocks as they try to rattle men on line into opening up and exposing their positions.

Source

We already know, the insurgents are not below using civillians for their deeds.

From the Benderman page a reply from a vet:

"As far as shooting young people throwing rocks, that is a judgment call.  When I retired from the military I joined the police force of a large urban city.  As I was going through training one of the scenarios we had was a bunch of bad guys throwing rocks at us.  According to our training, throwing rocks is deadly force.  If someone throws a rock at you, you are justified in shooting them.  That is the training I received in the police training academy.  Now I don't think I would want to shoot a young person who was throwing rocks at me but under certain circumstances I would and I would be justified.

Look these young people over there are indoctrinated to hate.  If they would have had a gun rather than rocks they would have shot your husband.  My best friend is in Balad right now.  He tells me that kids are all the time shooting at the troops and the troops shoot back and kill the kids.  It is not what we are accustomed to that is for sure. "

Source

Back in April and May, Branden wrote that the people were really glad to see him. They brought him fruit, chicken, homemade breads, juices,… But, in an August letter, out of the blue, Branden wrote that the children were throwing rocks at them. He said he knew the soldiers were acting childishly, but they threw rocks back at them. In a later phone call, I scolded Branden for throwing rocks at children. He told me that when men throw rocks at them, they fire back and shoot over their heads. He said the soldiers didn't want to fire their guns over children's head.

Source

That site, is by a father of two former soldiers, that were not to pleased with the war. I learned a couple things from it, not a bad site to read.

"US fires on Iraqi crowd, killing at least 13." In the town of Fallujah, MSNBC reports, U.S. soldiers opened fire on a crowd of demonstrators (boys 5-20 in age) this morning, 10:30 Baghdad time, protesting the troops' occupation of the school where (according to MSNBC) the boys used to normally study, but now is used as those troops' headquarters. The story cites al-Jazeera as reporting that the soldiers fired after "someone threw a rock at the school."

"Dr. Ahmed Ghanim al-Ali, director of Fallujah General Hospital, said there were 13 dead, including three boys under 11 years old. He said his medical crews were shot at when they went to retrieve the injured, which he said numbered 75 people."

Source

Kids that did get shot for throwing rocks... I some how doubt it was because of throwing a rock at a building. In rules of engagement, your not suppose to protect property. Never the less, interesting.

I am an LCPL in the US Marine Corps and veteran of Operation Iraqi Freedom. Mr Moore, please keep pounding away at Bush. I'm not some ***** when it comes to war. However, the position we were put in - fighting an enemy that used women, children, and other civilians as shields; forcing us to choose between firing at "area targets" (nice way of saying firing into crowds) or being killed by the b*st*rds using the crowds for cover - is indescribably horrible.

I saw more than a few dead children littering the streets in Nasiriyah, along with countless other civilians. And through all this, I held on to the belief that it had to be for some greater good.

Source

He had to do what he had to do to stay safe and protect his men.

You don't get to pick your enemies, your enemies choose you.

[turbonium]

could you provide sources for your information, or is that speculation/opinion?

The Congress shall have power ... To declare war," says the U.S. Constitution (Article I, Section 8). Powers of Congress

To declare war means to initiate war. That was established usage in 1787, when the Constitution was drawn up. The president is "commander in chief of the army and navy" (Article II, Section 2).

UN Charter & The US Constitution

Constitution of the United States: Article VI

Section 2: This constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, any thing in the constitution or laws of any state to the contrary notwithstanding.

Section 3: The senators and representatives before-mentioned, and the members of the several state legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers, both of the United States and of the several states, shall be bound by oath or affirmation, to support this constitution.

Additionally, the United States was the first nation to ratify the Charter of the United Nations on August 8, 1945.

Article 51 of the UN Charter acknowledges the right to self-defense "if ... Any resolution authorizing a preemptive war of aggression is ultra vires, or null and and void as beyond the authority of the Council to enact....

Article 1 of the U.N. Charter establishes: "The purposes of the United Nations are. . . To maintain international peace and sovereignty, and to that end: to take effective collective measures for the prevention and removals of threats to the peace,

and for the suppression of acts of aggression or other breaches of the peace and to bring about by peaceful means, and in conformity with the principles of justice and international law, adjustment or settlement of international disputes or situations which might lead to a breach of the peace. . . ."

Article 2 states that all member states "shall act in accordance with the following Principles: ...All members shall settle their international disputes by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace and security, and justice, are not endangered....All members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations...."

Funny you didn't mention all of the illegal activity conducted by the United Nations.

Why is that "funny"? It is not pertinent to the topic of discussion - the soldier being charged. If you think I'm ignoring issues in relation to the war to focus on 'America-bashing' or otherwise, think again. The UN involvement is equally disturbing in many ways, so don't think that I have no opinions on that. Start a thread if you want, and I'll give you a laundry list of wrong-doings by the UN!! Or I might start one, so the US Gov't is not seen as the only troublemaker. (they are NOT the only ones - but they often get the majority of flak because of the sheer dominance of the US in global affairs).

Also, why didn't he say something right after he came back the first time??? Why did he re-enlist on his own free will?

hechtal - everybody reacts in their own way during war, and post-war is no different. Some who go through war see and do things that would make you heave your lunch - and they may handle it OK even when they are back stateside. Some of these guys have instinctively blanked some harsh things, and say they saw nothing bad happen while they were there. Other guys may say the same thing to avoid re-living it by describing it. But then the situation just before going back again can trigger a flood of visuals they had managed to put aside or had blanked out until then.

Bottom line - We can't presume to know what this soldier has experienced. You and I cannot judge his actions - only he can decide that for himself - and you, I, and everyone else should respect that. Do you think others should or can judge your character without knowing you and what you have gone through in any particular situation?

[PadawanOsswe]

the guy didnt file a consiencious objector, otherwise he would have been home free, but he obviouslly didnt whenever he had plenty of time to do so, too bad for him.

[liljellybean]

Ok then. I want everyone who called him filth or trashed his name to sign up for the next war and tell me how it all works out.

What niave teenagers and others do not realise is that war is not Medal of Honor on the PS2. No. War is worse than that. You do not have a extra life you can use up and there are no cheats on the internet to tell you how to do it. And you do die with one gunshot.

Why are we saying this about a fellow human being when I am willing to put in $50 that most of you have been fortunate enough not to experince war.

He was in every way correct to call war 'most stupid' in my opinion. Why not the other day i was reading a post on this website about a new weapon. I was disgusted by how many people posted that they wanted one.

War is an will always be the lowest form of human action as long as trigger happy governments operate. I would, if I was forced to kill innocent people drop my weapon and walk away because there is no way i am going to live my life with that blood on my hands.

In short when you people know what you are talking about and have any idea, please feel free to prove me wrong.

[__Kratos__]

I would, if I was forced to kill innocent people drop my weapon and walk away because there is no way i am going to live my life with that blood on my hands.

Who said anything about killing innocent people on purpose? I think you need to know what you are talking about.

Why not the other day i was reading a post on this website about a new weapon. I was disgusted by how many people posted that they wanted one.

The "DREAD" gun is the new military's baby. If someone wants a gun, then they have the right to have one (unless they did something really bad) in America. Remember the Bill of Rights? The second amendment? If you don't like it you are more then welcome to throw a tissy fit or move. You have those choices because of the freedom the soldiers fought for.

[PadawanOsswe]

Ok then. I want everyone who called him filth or trashed his name to sign up for the next war and tell me how it all works out.

What niave teenagers and others do not realise is that war is not Medal of Honor on the PS2. No. War is worse than that. You do not have a extra life you can use up and there are no cheats on the internet to tell you how to do it. And you do die with one gunshot.

622178[/snapback]

[

-Ide be glad to enlist,and no s*** its not a video game, its scary, but some people throughout history have liked war,and they were not evil and insane.

Why are we saying this about a fellow human being when I am willing to put in $50 that most of you have been fortunate enough not to experince war.

622178[/snapback]

-I say this about a "fellow" human bieng because he choses a proffession and then takes no responibility of his proffesion,he broke his oath and frankly I speaking do not feel sorry fo him.

He was in every way correct to call war 'most stupid' in my opinion. Why not the other day i was reading a post on this website about a new weapon. I was disgusted by how many people posted that they wanted one.

622178[/snapback]

-fine, be as disgusted as you want,without guns you wouldnt even have the right to be disgusted

War is an will always be the lowest form of human action as long as trigger happy governments operate. I would, if I was forced to kill innocent people drop my weapon and walk away because there is no way i am going to live my life with that blood on my hands.

622178[/snapback]

-yeah, fighting the Nazi's was a really terrible move , without war there would be no freedom pal.innocent? in war if you are on the right side the enemy isnt innocent. you dont want blood on your hands? thats why the firearm was invented, you kill from a distance that keeps you well outa the way of blood spurting! . sure war is bad but the world isnt perfect and s*** happens,welcome to the universe! Enjoy your stay!

622178[/snapback]

In short when you people know what you are talking about and have any idea, please feel free to prove me wrong.

622178[/snapback]

- I just did

Edited May 14, 2005 by PadawanOsswe

[Fluffybunny]

In short when you people know what you are talking about and have any idea, please feel free to prove me wrong.

- I just did

No you didn't, you've just reinforced the fact that you have no idea what is going on in this case and do not have the life experience to be able to understand the ramifications of war, military service, oaths, honor, responsibility, or doing what you feel is right regardless of the consequences.

You are young, and this is a difficult subject to be able to understand; some people can and some people can't, but in my opinion you seem to be a ways off from knowing the full story here.

Dads do not count, and only with the personal experience similar to this mans experience would you be able to understand the situation. I have had many more life experiences to pull from, many similar to what this guy went through(combat medic for 8 years). I can understand where he came from in making his choice; if I were 14, I would not be able to do so(although I would probably think I could as I felt I knew more at 14 than any other time in my life)

[PadawanOsswe]

if he were to make a decision to not go back it should have been when he first got back, too bad for him, he waited too long and now he's bieng court-marshalled, he didnt made a consciencious objector,therefore he is violating his orders that he wouldnt have to follow had he gotten out of the lazy-chair and filed a Con. Obj.!

[turbonium]

he didnt made a consciencious objector,therefore he is violating his orders that he wouldnt have to follow had he gotten out of the lazy-chair and filed a Con. Obj.!

  the guy didnt file a consiencious objector, otherwise he would have been home free, but he obviouslly didnt whenever he had plenty of time to do so, too bad for him.

Wrong. From this AP story Soldier

Benderman received a letter Wednesday from the Army's Conscientious Objector Review Board denying his objector claim, said Maj. Scot Sikes, Benderman's military defense attorney.

"He's not giving up and he'll keep pressing it until `no' means `no,'" Sikes said Friday. "This guy's no coward. He's a big, strapping soldier from Tennessee who already served in Iraq once and did his duty."

The lack of respect you are showing for someone who has served his country for ten years disgusts me. He has been through more than you ever will while you sit in your "lazy-chair" and pass judgement. You speak like a naive kid who acts bravely while actually having not one clue what it's like to have death all around you and hoping to God you don't die in the next minute. You haven't lived through it. Every war has a sampling of fresh recruits who talk it up thinking they're Rambo Jr., then crumble in tears and incontinence when reality hits at the first sound of enemy fire.