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twpdyp

Army Objector Calls War "Most Stupid"

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Iilaa'mpuul'xem

Padawan... I don't think you let your brain get into gear before you start typing, I suppose Muhammad Ali was a coward also. This guy is not lazy.. he spent 10 years serving his country and he knows he is in for a rough time with military courts. I respect him for his decision, I suppose you would line me up against the wall and shoot me also for backing him and giving him my support.

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PadawanOsswe

the guy would be lucky if he doesnt get shot! my dad served 11 and 1/2 years and he never complained and refused service.

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Iilaa'mpuul'xem

You always quote your dad, brainwashed by the opinions of an influencing adult... Now tell me what comparisons your dads service has with this guy, how do you know what this guy has gone through and what he has witnessed? I have spent most of my adult years in or attached to the military and still active with units across the World, I have seen sh** that would put you off sleeping for fear of re ocurrung nightmares... I have lost count of how many people I have killed both in the military and the private sector... don't come here and quote "my dad said" One day perhaps when you have joined up and actually witnessed horrific things you will understand.

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PadawanOsswe
You always quote your dad, brainwashed by the opinions of an influencing adult... Now tell me what comparisons your dads service has with this guy, how do you know what this guy has gone through and what he has witnessed? I have spent most of my adult years in or attached to the military and still active with units across the World, I have seen sh** that would put you off sleeping for fear of re ocurrung nightmares... I have lost count of how many people I have killed both in the military and the private sector... don't come here and quote  "my dad said" One day perhaps when you have joined up and actually witnessed horrific things you will understand.

614885[/snapback]

my dad has fought the Hesbollah, its a similar situation. the reason I quote him is because I cannot enlist right now and therefore have to consult him about what the s*** is like.and I will quote my father if I feel like it buddy.

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PadawanOsswe

Brainwashed? his combat experience may be different than that of an SAS ya know.

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Iilaa'mpuul'xem
You always quote your dad, brainwashed by the opinions of an influencing adult... Now tell me what comparisons your dads service has with this guy, how do you know what this guy has gone through and what he has witnessed? I have spent most of my adult years in or attached to the military and still active with units across the World, I have seen sh** that would put you off sleeping for fear of re ocurrung nightmares... I have lost count of how many people I have killed both in the military and the private sector... don't come here and quote  "my dad said" One day perhaps when you have joined up and actually witnessed horrific things you will understand.

614885[/snapback]

my dad has fought the Hesbollah, its a similar situation. the reason I quote him is because I cannot enlist right now and therefore have to consult him about what the s*** is like.and I will quote my father if I feel like it buddy.

614984[/snapback]

Firstly lets get one thing straight... "I am not your buddy" I have more in common with the guy we are discussing than I have with you.

As for Hezbollah they are a Lebanese umbrella organization of radical Islamic Shiite groups and organizations. all they do is oppose the West and seek to create a Muslim fundamentalist state... That is not a War how many of them did Dad actually Kill... none I bet.

I am sure most soldiers would prefer this to what they are going through now.

Edited by XSAS

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PadawanOsswe

actually he doesnt know if he killed anyone or not, but he sure as hell wanted to kill some Hezbollah b*******, and the similarties between Beirut and Iraq are

-Religious etremeism

-climate/weather conditions

-etc...

----------------

enough similarities for him to talk about the war, and even if he did kill someone it wouldnt have made him like this guy.

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Iilaa'mpuul'xem
actually he doesnt know if he killed anyone or not, but he sure as hell wanted to kill some Hezbollah b*******, and the similarties between Beirut and Iraq are

-Religious etremeism

-climate/weather conditions

-etc...

----------------

enough similarities for him to talk about the war, and even if he did kill someone it wouldnt have made him like this guy.

615132[/snapback]

I have forgotten more about Terrorism then you and your dad know. How the hell does he not know if he killed anyone or not, was he crying? or did he throw a grenade into a bush and did not know how many were in there when it went off?

What the hell as temperature and climate got to do with anything?

You will make a good Marine stick with them... you don't need an educational background to join.

Lets get back on topic because you are pushing my tolerence levels.

Edited by XSAS

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__Kratos__

Think of it this way: What if a whole unit of infantry soldiers decieded they couldn' take it anymore, so they all refused their tour. Their post was a civillian city because of the threats of attacks in that city. They put those people in risk, but all the other soldiers at risk that are there, or have to be transported there. It is unreasonable for a soldier to say "I quit" when in fact he took his oath, signed his papers, recieved the training, advanced training, soldier beneficts and took uncle sam's paycheck.

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TheOriginalF

Kratos:

One should always try to adhere to an oath and a responsibility, but at what point does a man's convictions need to come into play? He toured for six months and had an epiphany that what he was doing was wrong and if he staunchly opposed what was going on in Iraq than he owes it to himself and those around him to stand up for what he believes. I mean you can only tow the line for so long before you wind up hating what you have become and he did what he had to do.

You mentioned that you signed up in December, are you honestly going to tell me that there isn't a line that you wouldn't be willing to cross when it comes to taking orders? Is everything fair game? What if you found yourself fighting in a war that you didn't agree with? Is it right to stay there and fight regardless of your convictions?

I also think we need to take into account that he waited until he finished his tour before making this decision and the problem came about because he decided not to go back. So he didn't abandon his post or leave people unprotected or put his fellow soldiers at risk. So the analogy you've put forth in your post doesn't work here, it's apples and oranges.

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turbonium

Number one - he is NOT a coward. Number two - he did NOT desert his fellow soldiers in any combat situation. If you read his letter on page one you will see what sickened him was the inhuman attitude encouraged by his CO towards starving or injured women and children. Also, the despicable CO ordering them, among other things, to THROW LIVE SHELLS ONTO A TRUCK! He fought with courage for ten years - you don't suddenly become a coward. He did NOT desert in combat - as he stated he is a conscientious objector, and does not want to go back to Iraq to fight Bush's mindless war. Period.

From his letter....

How many more are we going to fight before we realize that the act of war is for small minded people that are intent in only satisfying their own needs and not the needs of the people in general? I do not want to be killed because I am living in a place that has a ruler that wants to go to war with any one.

I'd wager that not one of you calling him coward or deserter has ever been in a life or death situation. I'll tell you right now, when you have bullets grazing past your head, and the guns fire so close that you go deaf in an ear, the ONLY thing going through your head is staying alive - THAT IS IT!! But I didn't freeze or run away, I risked my life to save my friends - and this man did not run from battle and leave his fellow soldiers to face the enemy fire. Nor did he even lump his pants and freeze in fear. But he did have the nads to take a stand on all the other BS that was going on all around him - and realized quite rightly that this war is not about defending his country and fighting for freedom. NO WMD's were found, Saddam is gone, and they are still in Iraq for Bush and his fellow Chickenhawks! (perfect term for those who never fought but eagerly send others to fight for them!)

Bush is the REAL coward. He sends young people off to fight his war, while he got an easy post stateside during the Vietnam War, and he STILL went AWOL!! For him to have the gall to show up on the USS Lincoln in a flight suit like he's some kind of hero made me want to heave, it was so sickening. His poppy was also a REAL deserter. He bailed out of the plane he was piloting and left his two flight crew members to crash and die. This link has the testimony of a former war buddy of Bush Sr. Bush Shows His True Colors

Lastly, for those who say "He disobeyed orders from superiors" I ask you this: If a German soldier in WW II refused to obey the orders of Hitler's officers, would you call him a coward for not taking his post? If you know the history of some of the atrocious things the German infantry were ordered to do, I don't think you would.

But none of this will probably make sense to some of you who pass judgement while you sit at home watching TV thinking you know the real deal.

Edited by turbonium

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TheOriginalF

Great post turbonium! thumbsup.gif I couldn't agree more.

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__Kratos__

Well... his wife forwarded my email to one of the journal guys she said she would and he emailed me back. I would like to post it for you guys but do to the nature of the email, I cannot. If anybody wants to read the email just pm me about it.. thumbsup.gif

Sure he didn't want to go back, but he really wasn't a combat arms job. He was a mechanic. Sure, he saw the **** every now and then, and the images all around but he had a duty.

General Orders:

1st General Order

"I will guard everything within the limits of my post and quit my post only when properly relieved."

2nd General Order

"I will obey my special orders and perform all of my duties in a military manner."

3rd General Order

"I will report violations of my special orders, emergencies, and anything not covered in my instructions, to the commander of the relief."

He broke 1 and 2 of basic orders. So he will be punished.

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__Kratos__
The timing of his objector status claim(shortly before shipping out) , shows me that he had no right to all of a sudden say he was against killing when he had worked hard for three years to put himself in a unit that was a front line attack unit known for its killing practice. In previous wars his supperior officers could charge him with cowardice and have him executed. There were more than a few field executions in the first and second war where people choose to just walk off the field of combat when they were needed most; they put their fellow soldiers at great risk, and that cannot be tolerated.

Source: 8th Post Down From The Top

So, Fluffy, you agree Jeremy Hinzman was a coward but not Benderman?

Edited by __Kratos__

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Fluffybunny
The timing of his objector status claim(shortly before shipping out) , shows me that he had no right to all of a sudden say he was against killing when he had worked hard for three years to put himself in a unit that was a front line attack unit known for its killing practice. In previous wars his supperior officers could charge him with cowardice and have him executed. There were more than a few field executions in the first and second war where people choose to just walk off the field of combat when they were needed most; they put their fellow soldiers at great risk, and that cannot be tolerated.

Source: 8th Post Down From The Top

So, Fluffy, you agree Jeremy Hinzman was a coward but not Benderman?

615694[/snapback]

COWARDICE is the military legal term for refusing to follow direct orders during combat. It is not my term, it is the militaries.

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__Kratos__

^Hmm... so the military can consider him a coward but we can't? Whats wrong with that picture?

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Fluffybunny
^Hmm... so the military can consider him a coward but we can't? Whats wrong with that picture?

615741[/snapback]

You can do whatever you want; the bottom line is that it is rediculous for people who haven't the slightest idea of what this guy went through sitting here talking about his situation as if they did have a clue.

When folks who have been in combat and have killed people against their better judgement(and had to live with it: dads don't count) come along and have an opinion on the matter I will listen, otherwise it just is uninformed banter...

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Iilaa'mpuul'xem

What is wrong is your interpretation of the word coward.

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warden

There usually comes a time in a persons life what ever job you do when you say (enough is enough)

After reading the thread and all your posts i think no one can comment on why he has made his own mind up and not want to fight,so what he signd an oath,let the military courts sort that out ,and im sure they will and harshly as they will want to make an example of him to others who right know will be thinking the way he did

I say he is not a coward more like a brave man,there is that old saying my mum used to say to me (it takes a stronger man to walk away from a fight than to stand and fight)this man clearlt has seen and had enough

I know people will take it hard (especially americans) about the oath ,but as many have said `it is a piece of paper`you sign it when you are young and enthusiastic as time goes by you take a good hard look at your self and life and things start to change,maybe that is what has hapend to him

All i would say is let the military courts decide his fate and hope they dont make an example of him as it sounds like he has had enough already and a healthy sentence could put him over the edge and mess up a whole family

[EDIT - removed swearing]

Edited by Tommy

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Fluffybunny
What is wrong is your interpretation of the word coward.

615762[/snapback]

Mine? I think I may have missed something...

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__Kratos__
^Hmm... so the military can consider him a coward but we can't? Whats wrong with that picture?

615741[/snapback]

You can do whatever you want; the bottom line is that it is rediculous for people who haven't the slightest idea of what this guy went through sitting here talking about his situation as if they did have a clue.

When folks who have been in combat and have killed people against their better judgement(and had to live with it: dads don't count) come along and have an opinion on the matter I will listen, otherwise it just is uninformed banter...

615761[/snapback]

He hasn't killed anybody though... hes a mechanic for bradley tanks.

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Fluffybunny

So where was he stationed? what were his duties? What did he see? What were his experiences?

I am sure you have all that info to base your conclusion on...

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Iilaa'mpuul'xem
So where was he stationed? what were his duties? What did he see? What were his experiences?

I am sure you have all that info to base your conclusion on...

615769[/snapback]

Sergeant Kevin Benderman refused an order from the his Command Sergeant Major to re-deploy to Iraq and then requested a court-martial.

Benderman is a combat veteran with the 2-7 Infantry Battalion at Ft. Stewart, Georgia. He served in Iraq in 2003. During his tour, his outfit was ordered to open fire on children who were throwing rocks at unit personnel. Having personally witnessed this and other illegal acts by military personnel, Benderman has said publicly that under no circumstances will he participate further in the war in Iraq, a war Secretary General of the United Nations Kofi Annan has labeled "illegal". He has applied for Conscientious Objector status.

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__Kratos__
Sgt. Kevin Benderman has served in the US Army for the past ten years. His record has been honorable, with 2 Army Commendation medals for his service during a combat tour in Iraq, 4 Army Achievement medals, 3 Good Conduct medals, and having been recognized as outstanding leader and 1st Sgt. of his class out of 400 students in his primary leadership development class. Sgt. Benderman was also recognized as promotable to Staff Sgt. by his current command and having received the highest number of points possible by the promotion board.

In March, 2003, Sgt. Benderman deployed to Iraq with the 1-10 Cav, 4th ID from Ft. Hood, Texas. His unit followed the trail of the 3rd ID from Kuwait through Baghdad and into Tikrit just 2 weeks after the initial invasion of Iraq. Sgt. Benderman witnessed many situations that caused him to consider his beliefs on war and the destruction it brings. He returned after his combat tour with the 4th ID to transfer to Ft. Stewart and become part of the 2-7th Inf., 3rd ID in Georgia.

Sgt. Benderman had witnessed many things in Iraq. From seeing a young girl standing on the side of the road with her mother, her left arm burned black from hand to shoulder, crying in pain, with no one willing to stop and help her -- to viewing mass graves filled with bodies of young children, old men and women, and having to chase dogs from eating the remains -- to having to repeatedly remind his young troops that they were truly in a war zone, and to keep their heads down and be on their guard for incoming rounds that could kill them -- Sgt. Benderman saw what war does to humanity. He saw the destruction, he felt what he had to become in order to be part of that, and once he had time to recall everything about his experience, he knew that he could not return to this again.

Source

Truely horrible what he went through, but he wasn't the only one over there that saw and felt what he did.

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warden

I wonder if this will put many American males and females of joining the American army,or will the attention this story is getting inspire more to sign up

If it were an American it would put me of

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