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twpdyp

Army Objector Calls War "Most Stupid"

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Iilaa'mpuul'xem

I wonder how many on this post that have called him a coward would open fire on Children throwing rocks at you??

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__Kratos__
I wonder how many on this post that have called him a coward would open fire on Children throwing rocks at you??

615781[/snapback]

Even a child can kill with a rock. There is no law in nature that says a 12 year old boy can't kill a 18 year old guy. If my life depended on it, I would do it. My view is my life or his... and I would rather choose mine.

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warden
I wonder how many on this post that have called him a coward would open fire on Children throwing rocks at you??

615781[/snapback]

Even a child can kill with a rock. There is no law in nature that says a 12 year old boy can't kill a 18 year old guy. If my life depended on it, I would do it. My view is my life or his... and I would rather choose mine.

615784[/snapback]

You say you would (choose) isnt that what the guy is doing and getting punoshed for it Having the right to choose

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Subtemperate

Well Krato's. you give us the figures for the amount of marines killed from being hit by rocks by children..... and put this in perspective for us.

Obviously there must be great risk involved in letting children throw rocks at you, so I gather there must be history of such brutal occurences where guys were killed by a group of 10 or 12 year olds......

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__Kratos__
I wonder how many on this post that have called him a coward would open fire on Children throwing rocks at you??

615781[/snapback]

Even a child can kill with a rock. There is no law in nature that says a 12 year old boy can't kill a 18 year old guy. If my life depended on it, I would do it. My view is my life or his... and I would rather choose mine.

615784[/snapback]

You say you would (choose) isnt that what the guy is doing and getting punoshed for it Having the right to choose

615795[/snapback]

I have the right to choose because I am (right now) a civillian. That guy is not. He doesn't get the pleasure of saying "I don't like that, I'm not doing it!"

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Iilaa'mpuul'xem
I wonder how many on this post that have called him a coward would open fire on Children throwing rocks at you??

615781[/snapback]

Even a child can kill with a rock. There is no law in nature that says a 12 year old boy can't kill a 18 year old guy. If my life depended on it, I would do it. My view is my life or his... and I would rather choose mine.

615784[/snapback]

OK I understand, it is acceptable to commit War Crimes and Rules of Engagement to shoot children with stones.

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warden
I wonder how many on this post that have called him a coward would open fire on Children throwing rocks at you??

615781[/snapback]

Even a child can kill with a rock. There is no law in nature that says a 12 year old boy can't kill a 18 year old guy. If my life depended on it, I would do it. My view is my life or his... and I would rather choose mine.

615784[/snapback]

You say you would (choose) isnt that what the guy is doing and getting punoshed for it Having the right to choose

615795[/snapback]

I have the right to choose because I am (right now) a civillian. That guy is not. He doesn't get the pleasure of saying "I don't like that, I'm not doing it!"

615802[/snapback]

We all have the right to choose,by this mans actions he has chosen and if that is the path he has chosen well good luck to him,i for one will not be sending his distraught wife a shity email it will be one of support ,some thing the army should be thinking of as they are thinking about his future

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TheOriginalF

So by the logic I'm reading in this thread, if a child where to chuck a rock at me the next time I'm down town I can just run him over with car...since after all he was endangering my life.

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Iilaa'mpuul'xem

No... there are rules of engagement and rock throwing does not qualify, however it would qualify you to a War crime tribunal.

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Fluffybunny
No... there are rules of engagement and rock throwing does not qualify, however it would qualify you to a War crime tribunal.

616482[/snapback]

I love it. The guy didn't want to have to fire on kids, and rethought his stance on combat and refused an order to go back to have to shoot more kids and people here that aren't even in the military are questioning his decision...

huh.gif

The guy gets his day in court. The military court martial is nowhere near as liberal as the US court system so the guy is not going to get off easy; I would imagine that he will be made an example of in order to stop any further acts of independant thought.

He's willing to face jail rather that have to fire on 12 year olds again...seems reasonable enough to me. If you are so gung-ho that you'd rather fire on kids you have issues.

Again I say that unless you have been in his situation you have absolutely no right to judge his choice.

There are things far more important than following questionable orders, and if he can backup his statements with supporting testimony he might make a reasonable defence, althought a courtmartial is juried by military superiors who are less than objective in their deliberation in such cases.

If you think that someday (if you should maybe join the miltary and get into combat) you are going to follow every order to the letter regardless of the consequences you are sorely mistaken. As a soldier, you are obligated to follow legal orders, but you CAN NOT follow illegal orders; otherwise you are as guilty of war crimes as the person that ordered you to do something against the geneva convention.

Face it guys, you have no idea what he went through. You just don't. You can say what you want and puff up and act like Rambo JR. but the bottom line is that you haven't even enlisted, let alone served your country. You do not know what your response would be in his case, and acting like you do just shows me you are fooling yourself.

The folks that have actually seen combat that have contributed to this discussion have all been more than understanding of the guys decision; that should tell you something. The folks who have never been in combat seem to be the ones that are condeming him for his actions; that should also tell you something. If you can't see the corrolation of that you never will until you are in the same position(Should you choose to ante up and actually enlist for a combat position someday).

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Iilaa'mpuul'xem

Fluff you always put better than the rest of us... Very well versed.

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TheOriginalF

I was just being sarcastic in my previous post, XSAS, I think it's quite despicable to open fire on a child because they threw a rock at you.

Well said indeed Fluffybunny,

"As a soldier, you are obligated to follow legal orders, but you CAN NOT follow illegal orders; otherwise you are as guilty of war crimes as the person that ordered you to do something against the geneva convention."

This is something that I wanted to mention myself but I couldn't seem to find anything to actually back up it up. I wasn't quite sure how the rules work in that situation, so thanks for sending that along.

Edited by TheOriginalF

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Iilaa'mpuul'xem

Sorry TheoriginalF, I just get sick of trying to explain and defend something most people have no idea about.

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TheOriginalF

Oh no problem XSAS, I was just trying to point out how ridiculous it is to fire on a child because they threw a rock at you. I often forget that the tone of a message never translates well in written word.

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Iilaa'mpuul'xem

Imagine the carnage that would have been left behind in Northern Ireland if you could happily open fire on anyone throwing rocks at you, I do personally think the Rules of Engagement need re thinking but not dropped to this level.

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TheOriginalF

Agreed, If you were allowed to open fire every time somebody did something that might endanger your life our street would run red with blood.

I think a soldier in combat should always have the right to defend himself against enemy fire, however what can be considered enemy fire needs to be figured out. I don't think a kid with a handful of rocks should qualify however.

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ROGER
mad.gif And once upon a time, in a land called Vietnam, there was a village called MIA-Li. For those who don't remember, look it up. And for thoughs that do remember, Share in my degust and disbelief that these things happen. Fluffy is right. You do not follow an illegal order. But proving its legality or not is hard!

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Wings of Selkhet

There's no question: anyone who hasn't been in a war situation has absolutely no right to judge this man's actions. By doing so, you're disrespecting the whole ideal of the military...

All I have to say is that I find it disturbing that in this world, those who fight a war are idolized and those who refuse are demeaned.

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__Kratos__
There's no question: anyone who hasn't been in a war situation has absolutely no right to judge this man's actions. By doing so, you're disrespecting the whole ideal of the military...

All I have to say is that I find it disturbing that in this world, those who fight a war are idolized and those who refuse are demeaned.

616685[/snapback]

Yeah... we shouldn't honor the men and women that fight for our freedoms. rolleyes.gif And those that break the oath to protect shouldn't be called names or deameaned. rolleyes.gif It was his choice, and now he will have to live with it, regardless of what we say here.

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sanchera1978

You know fighting is only honorable when your fighting for an honorable cause. And the reason we are at war with Iraq is far from Honorable. Soldiers do deserve alot of respect since there willing to fight for what they believe in but i am sure alot of the soldiers over there dont want to be there once they see the reality of what they are doing.. Killing innocent children and women isnt honorable.

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Wings of Selkhet
Yeah... we shouldn't honor the men and women that fight for our freedoms.  And those that break the oath to protect shouldn't be called names or deameaned.

The men and women in Iraq are protecting the freedoms of the Iraqis, not ours. Our freedoms were never threatened during the years Saddam ruled. Iraqis were not coming over here and taking away our freedoms. They kept to themselves.

If he made the oath, it's his right to break it. It's not up to you to decide what actions are honorable and which aren't. What qualifies you to judge him?

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SnakeProphet
Yeah... we shouldn't honor the men and women that fight for our freedoms.  And those that break the oath to protect shouldn't be called names or deameaned.

The men and women in Iraq are protecting the freedoms of the Iraqis, not ours. Our freedoms were never threatened during the years Saddam ruled. Iraqis were not coming over here and taking away our freedoms. They kept to themselves.

If he made the oath, it's his right to break it. It's not up to you to decide what actions are honorable and which aren't. What qualifies you to judge him?

616957[/snapback]

You could ask that question a lot of members here.

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Wings of Selkhet

Yeah, I could. And that's why I'm not judging this guy as a coward or a horrible person for doing what he did. It's not my place...and it's no one else's either.

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Iilaa'mpuul'xem

It is not for any of us to judge him, the Military court will do that.

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Iilaa'mpuul'xem

It is not for any of us to judge him, the Military court will do that. Sorry for the double post, I got a bit trigger happy with the mouse.

Edited by XSAS

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