Hittite Relics found in North America.

[kmt_sesh]

I wonder how you spell sucker in Hittite-Minoan?

Or is that too cruel?

--Jaylemurph

There is no such word in Hittite-Minoan. Rather, it was performed with a certain hand gesture that is still common to us today.

Oh, man, this one is rich! Does the Kensington Runestone from Minnesota come to mind? The only difference here is that the Runestone was somewhat convincing.

What will people dream up next?

And, please, Hittite-Minoan? What in the hell is that supposed to be, anyway?

[Harks]

This is the only photo I found, not very good, but it said it has Ogam (or Ogham) writing.

ogham, ogam

1. an alphabetical script originally used for inscriptions in the Irish language from the 5th to the 10th centuries.

2. any of the 20 characters of this script.

3. an inscription in this script. — oghamist, ogamist, n.

http://www.aaapf.org/photo_gallery.asp?ItemID=54

Name: Newberry stone

Date: 11/2/2006

Description: Catalog# 2006.11.02.EP.54

"Newberry stone" contains Ogam writing and was found 200 miles west of Michigan "copper country"

Edited July 23, 2008 by Harks

[Judi E.]

Well it is a good thing the stone is still safe. Will you grace us with pictures of it and perhaps and sketch of how it would look intact with its symbols? What are your thoughts of the stone? Real? Of recent manufacture? From what culture?

This is the stone.

If i get time this week, i will get the pics and post the article with the original pics of the stone while it was in tact.

[Rosewin]

Well hopefully you get some time. This artifact seems so little payed attention to there is many variants of the history of it from various sources. It is not often that we have such so it makes it seem very new and exciting. Are the any other artifacts within the collection you oversee that might be of interests to the general audience here? It seems such a boon that a private collection is now available for the public. I am sure there are many interesting pieces either way of great historical value already have seen a few online.

[Judi E.]

Well as long as Judi knows she is welcome to return and there are those willing to engage in an open conversation with her without casting any judgment one way or another and that she is in good company that is all that really matters. I will take this attitude with most, regardless of what they have to share, that they are welcome to speak, and have nothing to fear from those who just want to dismiss them and claim everything they are saying is either fabrication or imagination. They are much more interesting regardless if I agree or not than those who simply want to prove others wrong time and time again. People who are like that are just in the way of open conversation and exchange of ideas IMHO

Thank-you much, Clovis.

Well said.

I was just going to leave this place, and not answer anyone at all.

As i didnt realize when i posted here, just what kind of a site this was.

What a place to come to eh?

Geeze, where i am I? LOL.

Thats okay i guess, but i really dont feel the necessity to prove myself in this little group

This is obviously not the place for grace.

And you know, you know the old saying, "don't throw pearls among swine"

I wasn't going to grace them with a thing after that.

i was just going to sit here and snicker to myself while i sat on this sack of seeds.

I thought it would be better if they found out about it later and then realized their mistake.

However, because you are a decent person.[CLOVIS]

I will share that with you.

Maybe Clovis, i should just email the pics to you alone eh? We would then spare these poor folks any further misery.

BTW, the pic posted is a good pic, i have that stone in a case at this museum.

Want to see it Clovis???? tee-hee

[cormac mac airt]

There is no such word in Hittite-Minoan. Rather, it was performed with a certain hand gesture that is still common to us today.

For clarities sake, would that be the American, or the British hand gesture?

cormac

[jaylemurph]

I wasn't going to grace them with a thing after that.

Shoot, and here I was willing to spend up to and including $19.95 to find out more.

--Jaylemurph

[Oniomancer]

The Newberry Stone is alive and well. It is in 8 pieces, but still in tact.

See? If this correct, This should be a lesson to everyone on the relative value of internet conspiracy stories. Before long, they'd have had it glowing with an unearthly energy and being trucked off from the Smithsonian to Groom lake encased in concrete, leaving a trail of the dead and disfigured in it's wake.

I was just going to leave this place, and not answer anyone at all.

As i didnt realize when i posted here, just what kind of a site this was.

What a place to come to eh?

Geeze, where i am I? LOL.

It's not as bad as it might look.

Call it a bit of combat fatigue from having to deal with the endless parade of bizarre theories presented with little regard for reason or common sense. Just reading it wears on you after a while let alone trying to debate it. Pity them, dear lady, for they have stared into the face of the Abyss.

Personally I saw nothing in your post to suggest other than you were just repeating what you'd been told without really expressing an opinion and that's just as it should be. Per your job mandate, it's still an historical artifact irrespective of whether it's ligit or not.

Edited July 23, 2008 by Oniomancer

[questionmark]

This is the only photo I found, not very good, but it said it has Ogam (or Ogham) writing.

ogham, ogam

1. an alphabetical script originally used for inscriptions in the Irish language from the 5th to the 10th centuries.

2. any of the 20 characters of this script.

3. an inscription in this script. — oghamist, ogamist, n.

http://www.aaapf.org/photo_gallery.asp?ItemID=54

Name: Newberry stone

Date: 11/2/2006

Description: Catalog# 2006.11.02.EP.54

"Newberry stone" contains Ogam writing and was found 200 miles west of Michigan "copper country"

Thanks for posting that, now that is something quite different from Hittite-Minoan. Now, as it is an established fact the Vikings were in America long before Columbus, and that a minority of Nordic tribes used Ogham letters, that find is not so spectacular anymore. But a good find.

ED missing comma

Edited July 23, 2008 by questionmark

[jaylemurph]

Thanks for posting that, now that is something quite different from Hittite-Minoan. Now, as it is an established fact the Vikings were in America long before Columbus, and that a minority of Nordic tribes used Ogham letters, that find is not so spectacular anymore. But a good find.

ED missing comma

I was under the assumption that Ogham referred just to a form of post-4th Century CE Irish writing. While I know other Nordic peoples used runic alphabets, I didn't know they used Ogham. Do you have any more information on that?

--Jaylemurph

edit: grammar

Edited July 23, 2008 by jaylemurph

[questionmark]

I was under the assumption that Ogham referred just to a form of post-4th Century CE Irish writing. While I know other Nordic peoples used runic alphabets, I didn't know they used Ogham. Do you have any more information on that?

--Jaylemurph

edit: grammar

There were inscriptions in old Norse found in Scotland. Also on the islands using Ogham instead of runes, see: Richard A V Cox, The Language of the Ogam Inscriptions of Scotland, Dept. of Celtic, Aberdeen University ISBN 0-9523911-3-9

ED:Garble

Edited July 23, 2008 by questionmark

[jaylemurph]

There were inscriptions in old Norse found in Scotland. Also on the islands using Ogham instead of runes on the islands, see: Richard A V Cox, The Language of the Ogam Inscriptions of Scotland, Dept. of Celtic, Aberdeen University ISBN 0-9523911-3-9

ED:Garble

Well now, I'm not sure I trust to books and such for this kind of thing. Maybe you could point to an website like www.atlantisinthenorth.com or www.irishalienhistory.com so I can be confident I'm getting the real truth and not the cover-up They want to me to see.

--Jaylemurph

[questionmark]

Well now, I'm not sure I trust to books and such for this kind of thing. Maybe you could point to an website like www.atlantisinthenorth.com or www.irishalienhistory.com so I can be confident I'm getting the real truth and not the cover-up They want to me to see.

--Jaylemurph

Sorry, can't keep them in my library ... the stink that emanates from them makes me ill...

[Mattshark]

Well now, I'm not sure I trust to books and such for this kind of thing. Maybe you could point to an website like www.atlantisinthenorth.com or www.irishalienhistory.com so I can be confident I'm getting the real truth and not the cover-up They want to me to see.

--Jaylemurph

THE TRUTH

[jaylemurph]

I don't know about you, Matt, but before I go to bed, I get down on my knees and thank my straight, white, American, Protestant, Republican, gun-toting god that men like that are out there, trying to to let us know how stupid and crazy the rest of us are.

--Jaylemurph

[cormac mac airt]

Hello all,

Source 1

Source 2

Source 3

Hittite, Minoan and Ogham in that order. As anyone can tell, on top of everything else, there is no similarity whatsoever between the first two. Hittite-Minoan script does not exist. As to the latter, there is some similarity with the Newberry Stone, but similarities in and of themselves aren't evidence. Also if the stone were authenticated as Ogham it may qualify as very old but certainly not ancient, particularly not of the time period of the Hittites or Minoans.

cormac

[counterveil]

And you know, you know the old saying, "don't throw pearls among swine"

Well gee, now that we know how you feel about us - please continue!

On a serious note, there is so much junk that comes through this board it really is genuinely hard not to react initially without some jaded remark.

[kmt_sesh]

On a serious note, there is so much junk that comes through this board it really is genuinely hard not to react initially without some jaded remark.

Boy, have you got that right!

People at UM wish to revise known history on the shakiest of science-fiction premises and expect those of us of a more skeptical nature just to nod and smile. A touche naive, no?

In that same post you quoted was the line: "I was just going to leave this place, and not answer anyone at all." My response to that would be, "If you're going to make a point, then stick around to defend it."

This poster evidently has considerable access to the object in question, so why not provide a nice photo or two and some historical information of a direct nature; otherwise, we are left to conjecture and to chuckle at things like "Hittite-Minoan," which is of course a complete fiction.

All of us at UM are open to conversation or we wouldn't be here to begin with. It's the nature of things that some of us are going to call to task that which is unlikely or misleading.

[Judi E.]

Boy, have you got that right!

People at UM wish to revise known history on the shakiest of science-fiction premises and expect those of us of a more skeptical nature just to nod and smile. A touche naive, no?

In that same post you quoted was the line: "I was just going to leave this place, and not answer anyone at all." My response to that would be, "If you're going to make a point, then stick around to defend it."

This poster evidently has considerable access to the object in question, so why not provide a nice photo or two and some historical information of a direct nature; otherwise, we are left to conjecture and to chuckle at things like "Hittite-Minoan," which is of course a complete fiction.

All of us at UM are open to conversation or we wouldn't be here to begin with. It's the nature of things that some of us are going to call to task that which is unlikely or misleading.

Okay, i can understand that.

Some of the comments though, towards my post, had nothing to do with what i posted.

My post, simply explained that the city of St. Ignace just acquired a Museum, a private collection, and in that collection is the controversial Newberry Stone.

That is all.

I made no statement as to its validity, whether it was Hittite-Minoan, or anything of the like.

I really had no idea what it was at all at first and assumed it was a hoax.

Several local archaeologists explained to me that there were many hoaxes during that time period (1896).

As far as i can see, no one has ever evaluated it.

And i find that odd.

i do not make much of the Newberry Stone, that is i don't advertise it and i don't mention much about it at the Museum.

The reason is that we obtained the Museum through a grant from the Sault Ste. Marie Tribe of Chippewa Indians.

I fought for a year to get it.

The Museum houses a great deal of relics and artifacts associated with our family history here, native settlements, tin plates of gggrandmothers and fathers of some 40 native familes here. And links us to our past that has been hidden from us.

I am a genealogist, i have been researching these old fur trading and native families here in Mackinac for some 25 years.

I have given up a great part of my life in the past two years to get this collection .

I don't want for any kind or sort of reason, the fact that the Newberry Stone, being in the collection, and the controversy that is aligned with it, to defray from the authenticity of the native artifacts.

The Stone is not the focus and i don't want it to take away from the very wonderful and real collection of native/french/british/american artifacts that tell this story of our people. And that is what the Newberry Stone does. iT TAKES AWAY FROM THE REST OF THE VERY REAL PRESENTATION.

The Newberry Stone is the first thing one sees when one walks in the Museum.

Because the Museum is arranged according to chronological history , before European contact, and embraces every cultural contact upon native americans throughout the history here. Mackinac, a major fur trade center, was thus a melting pot of many cultures who came to get the first hand upon the fur trade monopolies. Fur was gold.

Thus, the first thing one sees is the oldest thing there is at the beginning of the Museum, the first hallway is full of stone tools, 100s of arrowheads, war clubs etc. But the number one thing to see when you walk in the door is the Newberry Stone. A very controversial item.

Not a good first impression as you walk in. It makes people wonder right off the bat, about the rest of the artifacts.

It makes people react much the same way you all did.

The Museum is housed in an old old garage, some 100 years old.

There is 6,700 sq ft of artifacts and relics and close to 4,000 items all together.

90 displays. The place is fantastic.

All of this was put together by a retired orthodontist. And we didn't really know about it until he passed away.

These things have been in this old garage, arranged as a Museum, for at least 10-15 years, and each year it is closed to the public during the winter.

The objects are then freezing, no heat in the winter.

The task at hand for our Historical Society is simply maintain it right now so that it doesn't take a loss for the city. and to acquire the funding to take care of it properly and to house it properly in the future.

I have just opened it to the public in May of this year. We obtained it in November, 2007.

I have spent 100s of volunteer hours trying to get this place looking like something people would walk into without turning around and walking right out.

Painting, cleaning, rearranging cases, artifacts, etc.

The dentist passed away when he was 80, it had been years since anything had been taken care of.

Understand, that after i have done all of this work, i do not want a stone in the Museum that is going to make everything else look like it isn't worth anything.

If i have one thing in there that is a hoax, it is going to make everything else look like one too.

It will ruin the whole Museum. This Museum is not about the Newberry Stone!

It is about the cultural impact of European societies upon the native americans at Mackinac in particular, throughout history until the present.

It is a small Smithsonian. I had a guy come here from NY, who lives 4 blocks from the Smithsonians native american Museum and he stated that this one is beyond compare.

And i don't want it here if it isn't real.

Someone else can put it in their Museum if they like.

The reason the tribe put in the money for the city to buy it, was because it contained relics that pertain to their own history of this area, that were priceless and could not be lost. There are over 40 families here linked to that past. And for the first time, people are walking in here and seeing tin plate pictures of their great great grandmothers and fathers. From a settlement that no one knows much about, from a time of a cultural genocide, a time no one speaks about. We are researching that history, and finally able to find out the truth about what happened here.

it is a huge and wonderful project.

Understanding that....please understand that the Newberry Stone plays little significance to the reason we obtained this private collection.

IN fact, it will take from the authenticity of it.

What i need to do is find out, one way or another, what this stone really is.

It would be very nice if any of you would or could help me with that.

Since you all are seemingly interested in Unexplained Mysteries, i assumed i may get some help here.

so for you who are not so burned out by bizarre posts and weird people......

have a heart and give me a hand.

for the past year that i have been at this, i find that virtually no one is willing to check this stone out.

And i find that truly strange personally.

All i want is to find out one way or another.

Right now, it is not the Michilimackinac Historical Society fault that a controversial stone was in a collection we are overseeing.

It was not something that we did or promote.

And right now is when we need to have it evaluated for what it is.

You would think people would be interested in doing just that.

But its funny, they are not. LOL.

Everyone just wants to talk, hack away, or speculate.

If we have this stone evaluated, the MYSTERY will either be OVER, or it will BEGIN.

Either way, i make no speculations. I simply NEED to have this stone evaluated.

And most people are not interested in doing so.

The ones that are interested in doing so, kind of scare me.

REason being, is that it appears , from what i have read in the past, that the people who are interested are not objective.

They go out of their way to implement bias opinions.

I don't want that either. Just the truth thanks.

Anyway, i have taken some pics.

I dont see how to post them here unless i put them on a website.

It doesn't let me upload them from my computer.

Please advise me on how to post them.

I uploaded them to snapfish on a photo album site, thinking i could put a link here to that site,but i don't think that is appropriate as you have to log in to see them.

How can i do this?

Do you have to write in html here to show pics?

I am anxious to let you see them because i know you dont believe it.

I am not kidding people. We just acquired the STONE and i must find out about it. REALLY.

I have not approached anyone outside of our local archeologists yet.

They pretty much sluff it off.

But i have not had time to pursue the evaluation of it at any length.

I have only been trying to discover what has been written about it.

If it is the same stone, etc.

It is the same stone, that seems evident as it was aquired from the Ft Algonquin Museum, the last known place that the stone was at.

An article published in 2006, in the "Ancient American" magazine states that.

Its in Ancient American, Archaelogoy of the Americans Before Columbus, Vol 11, Number 71,page 18."the Lost god and Tablet of Prehistoric Michigan by Henriette Mertz, reprinted with permission from the Midwestern Epigraphic Society Journal. Beverly Moseley.

There is a pic of the whole thing in this article.

Outside of the pic that the dentist placed at the display of the stone, i have no other pic to compare these stones too.

It certainly appears to be the stone.

but in this pic is the tablet and the tablet is missing from our display.

There were only 3 stones in our display, inside of a case.

The dentist had placed a picture frame, with articles and pictures which explained how he got it from Ft. Algonquin, and of how the stone was found.

One of the articles has a picture of the smaller head, which we have, and which is identical to the old newsarticle pic.

The pic in the Ancient American magazine claims that it is from the Smithsonian Institute.

Under the pic it says "Smithsonian Institute 1896 photograph of the McGruer's Idols and Newberry Tablet before their destruction.

This 2006 article also states...."The Newberry find was deemed part of the Michigan Tablets, whic had been roundly condemned out of hand as worthless frauds. Sadly, the four pieces were removed to a Mr. McGuer's barn where they remained for several years exposed to extensive vandalism at the hands of neighborhood children. Sometime around 1929, their remnants were pieced together and removed to a small museum at Fort Algonquin near St. Ignace owned by Rev. H. Vaughn Norton. There the fragments remained until the museum closed sometime in the late 1950s or the early 1960s. No further information could be ascertained concerning their fate............

Mertz goes on to say that she , in 1977, sent to Dr. Fell, the copy she had made of the entire tablet.

The concludes with "Despite all our best efforts, the Newberry Tablet still remains one of the lost enigmas of Ancient America.

Last week the Vice Pres. of our Historical Society handed me a copy she got from a book, which i cannot quote because she only gave me the copy.

but i will get it from her. This piece of paper she handed me , is the notorious translation of the hieroglyphics on the tablet by dr. fell.

This trys to explain that ...."both tablets are magic quadrangles, to be both vertically and horizontally"

it goes on to say...."the syllabary of this inscription, derived from Cypro-Minoan, is tabulated (Fell, 1980) on page 78...

it tells how to read it, displays the hieroglyphics, and offers the translation of them.

Which seem to be somewhat ridiculous to me, but oh well.

i can post them but i will do that later. as this has become lengthy enough, and i am running out of time.

Another curiosity is the statement.....The Hittite-Minoan roots can all be found in Sturtevant Friedrich's Hittite Dictionaries, as already described.... easily ascertained from the dictionaries cited, and from the papers on OPES vol.4."

The more i read the less i know.

It is my task then, to just get it evaluated, the rest is all very argumentative and much speculation.

How can i do this? Who will do it that is someone that i can trust?

The fact is that the Newberry Stone is NOT LOST. and the "mystery" is that why doesn't any one find out the truth!

i am trying to do just that.

The Newberry Stone will sit here, drawing controversy until that evaluation is done.

I don't want that controversy in this place where i am trying to research and gather real lost history.

please advise on how to put up these pics.

[questionmark]

I don't want that controversy in this place where i am trying to research and gather real lost history.

please advise on how to put up these pics.

Well, looks like here is something we really like to do....

The best way to do the images is with a stand, soft light and low aperture (high diaphragm number), that way we have all details in depth and no altering shadows.

This forum has an upload function for images that you can find at the end of the text editing field. Use the browse button to find the image on your camera or hard disk, then press the green upload button.

Once the upload is finished use the field above the upload button to include the image in your post.

I don't know how many specialist we have in Ogham on this forum...but we maybe could find one.

ED: wonder what I was thinking about when I wrote Orkham....

Edited July 25, 2008 by questionmark

[HollyDolly]

Well I don't know about the Hitties,but it's foolish to think that other culutres couldn't have reached America centuries ago.

I just think that acedemia for whatever reason doesn't want these discoveries publizied because they don't fit in with there pet theories.

[Mattshark]

Well I don't know about the Hitties,but it's foolish to think that other culutres couldn't have reached America centuries ago.

I just think that acedemia for whatever reason doesn't want these discoveries publizied because they don't fit in with there pet theories.

What a load of rubbish. You think they would hide things, all of them? Don't be foolish, of course they'd want them published, they would get more grants and more funding and a better reputation.

[jaylemurph]

What a load of rubbish. You think they would hide things, all of them? Don't be foolish, of course they'd want them published, they would get more grants and more funding and a better reputation.

Actually, my chuckle always comes from the assumption that academia is some sort of homogeneous, fungible mass that could, if it chose, collectively decide to keep a secret. That's just ignorance of profound level.

--Jaylemurph

edit: grammar

Edited July 25, 2008 by jaylemurph

[kmt_sesh]

A great post, Judi E. Thanks for sharing all that information--interesting stuff. And sorry I went a bit off the deep end. I know it wasn't you who posted the Hittite-Minoan business, and I should've made that clear in my last post.

It sounds like you have a very interesting job. I spent much of my childhood and early adult years in Minnesota, so of course I'm familiar with the Kensington Rune Stone. You've probably heard of it. It's a well-done fake, so that's what I thought of when I first heard of the Newberry Stone. I'd enjoy seeing a good photo of the Newberry Stone, so I hope you're able to figure out the upload.

I wouldn't worry so much about its being a fake. I'd wager that many if not most museums of various sizes have fakes in their exhibits. I'm a docent at the Field Museum and Oriental Institute here in Chicago, and work mostly in the ancient Egypt exhibits. Both of these museums show fakes that had come into their collections over the years. We use them to try to give visitors an idea of how art historians determine what's fake, and the visitors seem to enjoy seeing them. I guess it all depends on how a fake is set up and displayed. Done the right way it can add to the value and appeal of an exhibit.

[counterveil]

Judi E., if you have super-high-res photos that you're having trouble hosting, let me know and I can help you get them onto my site and then linked here. I'm not sure if the upload function on this site has a size limit or not, but if it does feel free to ping me and I'll help you get it sorted.

Thanks for the background information - believe me there are a lot of people here interested in mysteries like this, and since a great number of us are interested in keeping museums authentic and unbiased, I'm sure there will be someone that can either help with the translations and/or analysis. And if not, at the very least some people here may know people that can help you.

And yes...the people who are immediately interested and frothing at the mouth are usually the ones with an agenda and a preconceived notion of how they want to interpret items like this