Anti-gun protests in London

[mrmonsoon]

Thats what happens when you criminalize guns, only criminals will have guns.

If I were a thug and a criminal in England, I would have rubbed my hands togather and jumped for joy when they outlawed guns.

Now I can rape, rob and pillage and no private citizen can stop me. (yes there might be a few acception, but they would be shot in no time.

I don't mean to pick on the poor victims of the direct crimes or the defenseless population-I only hope to show the politicians of the US what happens if we ban guns.(of course the ban would only work on law abiding people)

[static]

Now there is one quote that i find explains the gun.

"The gun has served both hero and villian alike"

[Subtemperate]

Of course the fact that in countries that ban guns, gun crime actually goes down, does not bode well for your arguement that only criminals have guns. You will find that in most cases the crime rate stays the same, but gun participation goes down... and since statistics show that you are twice as likely to die if attacked by someone with a gun, then with a knife or other impliment, then most places that have banned guns are safer in that regard.....

Banning guns however would not work in the US.....

[Fluffybunny]

Now there is one quote that i find explains the gun.

"The gun has served both hero and villian alike"

623218[/snapback]

That is a good quote.

I can completely understand how folks from the UK would have the opinion they do about guns, I do agree that they are dangerous. If we could magically wish away all the guns in the world, I'd be all for it.

Unfortunately we can't do that. If guns were banned in the US, only the law abiding folks(Who were never a problem in the first place) would go along with the plan and turn in their guns. The folks that are criminals (an overwhelming majority of the gun violence problem) would not do so, and would give the criminals even more of a control of the situation than they have now.

Everyone is kind of at a mexican stand of to speak.

I have guns and have used them in my military and civilian life. Now I just go target shooting on occasion, but pretty rarely.

In my opinion I think that a bulk of the gun violence problem could be resolved by dealing with the crime problem and keeping the violent criminals that use guns in criminal acts in jail for good. The repeat offenders are such a huge percentage of the gun crime problem that if we could just prosecute them and keep them in jail for as long as they were supposed to be, we'd be much better off.

Right now people are serving just a few months on a ten year sentence and getting right back on the street to start over again...

As I said, I'd love to do away with all of the guns; unfortunately where I live break-ins are common, and the twist is that some of the break-ins are by bears looking for munchies.(I have yet to have an anti gun person tell me that I don't need a gun for that).

If all guns could be spirited away; I would be all for it, but that isn't the case.

Anyway, for the folks from the UK, I understand where you are coming from. I would imagine that if I didn't live here I wouldn't understand it either.

[bathory]

giggle the US has a higher rate of murder, no arguing that, but i do believe the reason for that is drugs and social factors mainly stemming from african american culture (49% of gun homicides are african americans...somethings wrong).

Guns aren't and never will be the problem

Banning guns isn't and will never be the solution.

please also note the UK has a significantly higher rate of violent crime compared to the US. The average citizen in the US is safer in contrast to the average citizen in the UK simply because the high rate of homicide is concentrated within a significant minority within the population:)

[PadawanOsswe]

Padowassie I hope to god the new breed of americans are not of your mind set..

622963[/snapback]

why? so I cant defend myself, and sorry dude majority of americans like firearms. ( I live in Texas damn near everyone in the state owns a few firearms)

besides we have regulations about what the average joe can own, For example Full-Automatics can only be owned (legally) if you are

-A.a class-3 firearms dealer

-B. or if you have a license to own or use a full-automatic weapon

(ponders...ah...Full automatics )

in history all of the nations that had a ban on civilians owning weapons, the people were left defenceless and were easily brought under order, sure a country may have a military and a police, but what if they turned against you? what if they could not protect you? you would be left defenceless

[Commander CMG]

Padowassie I hope to god the new breed of americans are not of your mind set..

622963[/snapback]

why? so I cant defend myself, and sorry dude majority of americans like firearms. ( I live in Texas damn near everyone in the state owns a few firearms)

besides we have regulations about what the average joe can own, For example Full-Automatics can only be owned (legally) if you are

-A.a class-3 firearms dealer

-B. or if you have a license to own or use a full-automatic weapon

(ponders...ah...Full automatics )

in history all of the nations that had a ban on civilians owning weapons, the people were left defenceless and were easily brought under order, sure a country may have a military and a police, but what if they turned against you? what if they could not protect you? you would be left defenceless

623466[/snapback]

You have no idea what you are talking about.

[PadawanOsswe]

You have no idea what you are talking about.

623552[/snapback]

really? how did you come to this conclusion all knowledgable xsas?

and ide really like to know who died and gave you the power to know when someone doesnt know what they are talking about?

(Song)

"the lord he loves the NRA

He told me so the other day

he wrote it out in bullets in the sky

he's sitten up in heaven with an AK-47

shootin as the angels go by..."

Edited May 16, 2005 by PadawanOsswe

[Commander CMG]

I think from your reply that I have proved my point, immature trigger happy kid that will be a problem to society in the future and sadly give guns a bad name because of your actions???

[PadawanOsswe]

oh yeah, forget about defense,self-defense is totaly dumb!

[Commander CMG]

oh yeah, forget about defense,self-defense is totaly dumb!

623608[/snapback]

Self defence by using a gun is dumb.. this is not the wild west, it is not a war zone, guns have a place in this todays world. There is no quick fix or solution to stopping gun crime, but the right to bear amrs etc etc etc... what a load of crap.

[bathory]

Self defence by using a gun is dumb..

not really, a firearm is quite the equalizer, often one doesn't even need to fire a shot, intimidation factor works quite well too

[Commander CMG]

Self defence by using a gun is dumb..

not really, a firearm is quite the equalizer, often one doesn't even need to fire a shot, intimidation factor works quite well too

623644[/snapback]

Intimidtion as a deterent... how does that work? have you personally tried this? The reason I ask is because I have?

[PadawanOsswe]

oh yeah, forget about defense,self-defense is totaly dumb!

623608[/snapback]

Self defence by using a gun is dumb.. this is not the wild west, it is not a war zone, guns have a place in this todays world. There is no quick fix or solution to stopping gun crime, but the right to bear amrs etc etc etc... what a load of crap.

623630[/snapback]

-Did I say it was the wild west? no!

-Did I say it was a war zone? no!

what are you gonna do , charge at your attackers with a pointy stick?

guns do have a place in this world, they should be available to all (or at least most people) because otherwise pointy sticks will be issued to the citizens.

Edited May 16, 2005 by PadawanOsswe

[warden]

giggle the US has a higher rate of murder, no arguing that, but i do believe the reason for that is drugs and social factors mainly stemming from african american culture (49% of gun homicides are african americans...somethings wrong).

Guns aren't and never will be the problem

Banning guns isn't and will never be the solution.

please also note the UK has a significantly higher rate of violent crime compared to the US. The average citizen in the US is safer in contrast to the average citizen in the UK simply because the high rate of homicide is concentrated within a significant minority within the population:)

623321[/snapback]

You are right on that one bathory,in 2004 there were were more serious assaults and murders per population in Glasgow than in New york

America has either got to grips with the situation or Britain is taking of big time

[Commander CMG]

oh yeah, forget about defense,self-defense is totaly dumb!

623608[/snapback]

Self defence by using a gun is dumb.. this is not the wild west, it is not a war zone, guns have a place in this todays world. There is no quick fix or solution to stopping gun crime, but the right to bear amrs etc etc etc... what a load of crap.

623630[/snapback]

-Did I say it was the wild west? no!

-Did I say it was a war zone? no!

what are you gonna do , charge at your attackers with a pointy stick?

guns do have a place in this world, they should be available to all (or at least most people) because otherwise pointy sticks will be issued to the citizens.

623669[/snapback]

You have major issues and if I had a pointy stick I know where I would like shove it?

Have you used a gun in defence against another person.

[Subtemperate]

Xsas please cease with the personal remarks. This is not a war of wirds, this is a discussion and please keep that in mind.

If you can't keep from personal remarks, please rethink posting in this thread and cool off....

[Commander CMG]

Sorry... just speaking from experience.

[Subtemperate]

No the second remark is spoken from experiance, the first was unnecessary. Do keep that in mind in future posts.

[bathory]

Have you used a gun in defence against another person.

if you are going to take the arguement i think you are going to take, let me preemp you by saying that i haven't had to use the smoke alarms in my house yet:)

[Faeden]

Some people just do not understand what it is the anti-gun people are trying to say, its not until they lose a loved one due to a gun that it then hits them what the anti-gun people are trying to say, and the point they are making. But even then some of the thickest still do not get it, so they pick up a gun and then go and do the same thing, and use it on someone else, then someone else does the same and shoots them DURR!!! And then people scratch there heads and wonder why America has the highest murder rate in the world. If America was not so gun happy in the first place you would not need guns "for protection" I'm surprised that seems to go over so many peoples heads, its bizarre.

[Commander CMG]

Fully agree but it is not just the gun crime it has an effect on the children that live in houses where the guns are kept.. how many innocent kids have been killed or injured that find guns hidden in their homes and then thought they were toys.

Guns for defensive reasons... where does this stop, I then get a Machine gun because my aggressor has one.

[Scar]

The problem with America is there to far down the road, Americans Love the M.A.D concept. The American way is fine with me none of them come whining when a stray bullet or stressed out teenager guns down someone they love.

Violent crime in Glasgow is higher than NYC because we Drink to get absolutely mashed, the difference is Guys fight they both usually walk away someone pulls out a gun one guys dead the other has nothing to lose.

Padawan your Views are skewed your attitude towards guns is typical of what I have expected from Film and TV for a Texan gun slinging wannabe. Firearms are nessecary in your country, but don't proclaim and sing about them.

Firearms in America are like Nukes in the world, there a Nessacery evil in your country and its your own fault. Nukes are the same but there the worlds fault.

You mention other countries allot on these gun threads citing that countries where gun laws were passed ended up being attacked by their government. you Cited the Jews in Germany WWII Era. Excactly how are Normal Citizens going to stand against an Orginised national Army with Armoured vechiles, daisy cutters, Laser guided missiles, cluster bombs, M16 Assault rifles with grenade launchers, night vision, satellite Imagining support etc etc.

You think if George Dubya decided the Texans deserved to be quashed with the might of the US military you would actually stand a chance ?

You have Firearms not Tactical Warfare Munitions

[bathory]

And then people scratch there heads and wonder why America has the highest murder rate in the world.

it has a somewhat higher rate amongst first world nations, as for the reasons, let me assure you, if you had any idea about the subject you wouldn't be blaming the proliferation of firearms, instead you would be looking towards things such as drugs and gangs, something the US has to a far greater extent than that in most other 1st world nations

[Celumnaz]

This may be a very long post, and I apologize. I feel as strongly about this as I do about not murdering handicaped people.

First, the article:

From The Daily Mail -

Anti-gun march hears of 400 deaths

Were the 400 deaths gun related?

Almost 400 murder victims died at gunpoint in the past 12 years, a campaigner against gun crime told hundreds of people.

Almost. Oh. Just a nice round number to round up to.

A crowd took to the streets of west London as part of a demonstration organised by the parents of 17-year-old Anton Hyman, who was murdered last year.

I don't know London's policies on demonstrations. Not a big concern, but was the 17 year old murdered by a gun? Or did someone pull a trigger on him?

The march began at midday at Brent River Park and ended four miles away in Acton Park where demonstrators listened to speeches by mothers whose sons had been shot dead.

Bet that was a fun place to be.

A spokeswoman for Mothers Against Murder and Aggression, Dee Edwards, said: "We have looked after 400 families in 12 years who have lost someone to murder and almost everyone of those murders involved guns."

Oh... that's 400 families, in over a decade... and not even all of them even involved guns... so what did the others involve? And how many? Nothing like lumping data together and then telling hundreds of people... that's not considered a con?

She said that judges gave out sentences which meant people could get out of prison for a gun crime after eight years.

gun crime. hmmmm.... well, I won't argue there's a problem with the judicial in the US... can't really comment on the UK... but seems that owning a gun is a crime.

"The government doesn't let people down, it is judges that let people down. They let people off for good behaviour."

Blanket rulings and legislation never work. Can't paint everyone with the same brush. I'll bet, some really do get out of prison and lead productive lives. Some say "You let me out and I'll kill 1000 people this time" and then they get out... now something's wrong with that.

Metropolitan Police Detective Inspector Anthony McKeown told the rally he believed that a group was involved in the killing of Anton Hyman.

He was at the protest? Ok a group killed this 17 year old. Why are we focusing on this one kid? Aren't there other dead people to talk about too? Are they less important? Is this kid being used as an example of "gun crime" maybe?

The teenager from Acton, west London, was repeatedly slashed around the neck with a knife then shot in the back and stabbed in the heart. A passer-by found him dumped in the river Brent last year.

So the mom thinks her kid would have survived being stabbed in the neck, and drowned, but it's being shot in the back is what killed him? I don't know the specifics, but I'd say there's more than just some "gun crime" going on here.

I mean, this is like that STUPID "hate crime" BS. If I stab a man in the eye, it's a criminal act. I don't care if I shouted a slur as I did it, or if I did it politely... the fact would be I stabbed a man in the eye. Somehow, if the man is a different race, it's worse??? Come on! A crime is a crime is a crime.

Detective Inspector McKeown said: "I believe there was more than one person there when Anton died. Maybe not all of them took part. Some of them may feel terrible. Others may know where the weapon is or where it came from and it is them I am appealing to today."

The knife, right? Talking about the nife? With DNA evidence and whatnot all over it?

Anton's mother, Vanessa, said it was exactly one year to the day since she buried her son. Tomorrow he would have celebrated his 19th birthday.

Yes, I've lost 2 children. It totally sucks. Is there a point they're trying to communicate? It sucks, I don't have my kids. They're dead. Yep.

So, I don't understand the "protest". What are they protesting? Violence? I can go for that, I don't like violence either.

It works a little bit different in the UK... we don't shoot the **** out of someone to protect ourselves and we don't go to school passed off with the teacher and shoot the **** out of everyone we see? We have what is called a legal system, granted that lets us down but we depend on that and the Police for defence, The UK gun problem is a an iassue here but we don't reply to it by giving every trigger happy d*** **** the right to defend them selves a gun.

Hmmm... should we post every day that nobody is shot in school? Nobody ****ing shot today! Few weeks ago a co-worker brandished his piece to someone running up to his car. That "trigger happy d*** ****" I work with didn't have to fire a shot. Whoops... I guess he's not trigger happy. I thought we were all trigger happy? I thought I understood the anti-position but now I'm confused again... Trigger happy d******* didn't shoot the **** out of everyone, imagine that...

oh? it happens like that every day? at least 100 times for every single time something bad is reported in the media? Oh look! I can make up statistics too just like the ladies at the protest!

It is down to the fact that Police are now not allowed to do a stop & search without very good reason. This basically means that the criminal element can walk around with a concealed weapon and as long as you aren't doing anything illegal the police are not allowed to stop and search you.

I'd be in jail for protesting random searches. "excuse me ma'am? you look suspicious. not really har har. but you'll still have to step aside ma'am for a rectal search. why? because I told you to, are you arguing with me? and if you complain about this you'll probably wind up in jail with all the others..."

Some Interesting facts

USA gun deaths for Kids aged 12-16 (Maybe out by a year or so) is higher than 12 Industrial Countries COMBINED!

There is more Gun franchises than Mcdonald resturants *8

Really? Is there a source? How many of those 12-16 year old angels were involved with gang related activity? How many had irresponsible parents? What's a "Gun Franchise"? 12 Industrial Countries? Is this in total or per unit? How's South Africa compare these days? Need to go look up those per person stats comparing US and UK again... is posted on these boards somewhere. Them's facts.

Padowassie I hope to god the new breed of americans are not of your mind set..

And I'll bet you're a riot at parties. Pado, your views are fine. Some people can't take other people's opinions, even when backed by historically significant precedent showing them to be correct. Invoking God, associating "Breed" with a nationality, specifically "Americans", comparing the mindset to breed as well inferring a base animalistic connection combined all in one sentence... not a bad insult. Still as useless as the opinion contained therein unfortunately.

thirteen by name, thirteen by nature eh? Way to go, Einstein.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Insulting is not the way to go, but makes sense considering the position...

And XSAS I don't think padowasse represents the majority of the USA kids, he's just one of those little extreme cases that springs up now and then... not to be taken seriously. I amagine many Amerians also balk at his attitude.

Hopefully he does represent. Only responding to what I'm seeing in this thread. I'd imagine most Americans would agree with him... but the "world" media will never hint that's the case. Our own mainstream media fears to hint it. It's that hidden unreported Majority that just goes to work every day doing what they do making the country work as anonymous entities... they think this way.

Richdog.. I know mate and I appologise.. it is wrong for me to compare him with the new generation of kids it is disrespectful to them.

Are we talking about the ones that can't wait to join the military, or the one's that complain that their ice cream costs too much or they can't skate in front of government buildings and their school books are too heavy?

Take a look at the above quote and take a look at your own country's statistics where hundreds of people die a week due to gun crime and tell me then that having these weapons banned is not a good thing.

Would help if a link was provided. I think we've provided it before, the official stats may supprise you. Maybe later will search for the links again. Hundreds a week... may I not believe you anymore about anything if that's untrue? Or maybe want to stick a "maybe" or "possibly" in there as a correction?

I disagree.. with the swearing comment.. many people use it as everyday language it all depends on how they use it.

That's no supprise, it's a common thought among the lower classes and uneducated, confused, uncivilized populace. Yes, every dissertation in order to be accepted, every serious scholorly research paper must contain the obligatory ****. Bravo.

Thirteen, please cease typing in caps lock......

Plus... whats the point of chicken wire if its killing the chickens as well.... no smart farmer would risk his chickens in such a way....

So please try and remain civil.... its a discussion.....

Oh oh a call for civility! Who's been cussing and doing personal attacks? Thirteen? Really?

I actually have an opinion on the chicken wire analogy, but I guess we can't pursue that line of on topic thought. Back to personal attacks against Thirteen, this time with impugnity!!

Of course the fact that in countries that ban guns, gun crime actually goes down, does not bode well for your arguement that only criminals have guns. You will find that in most cases the crime rate stays the same, but gun participation goes down... and since statistics show that you are twice as likely to die if attacked by someone with a gun, then with a knife or other impliment, then most places that have banned guns are safer in that regard.....

Banning guns however would not work in the US.....

Pardon me if I don't believe you due to the obvious partisan post above. Could I get some support for those statistics? Especially the one where crime Rate Stays the Same?

You have no idea what you are talking about.

Right on topic. Real handy info there. Can I say ditto to that, or would that be me attacking him?

Self defence by using a gun is dumb.. this is not the wild west, it is not a war zone, guns have a place in this todays world. There is no quick fix or solution to stopping gun crime, but the right to bear amrs etc etc etc... what a load of crap.

I think your ideas are a load of crap, at least so far in this thread. Anything more... convincing? No? Just hate? Ahh I see.

You have major issues and if I had a pointy stick I know where I would like shove it?

Have you used a gun in defence against another person.

Holy lord how many attacks can a person get away with in one thread!? Especially a thread where someone (of course, the one I agree with, pattern recognition) has already been repremanded for much less offense?? Where would said stick be shoved oh full of loving and compassionate one? Yes guns need only be shown in many cases for the deterrant to take effect. It's documented and has it's own statistics, although the study is flawed and more data is needed.

Some people just do not understand what it is the anti-gun people are trying to say, its not until they lose a loved one due to a gun that it then hits them what the anti-gun people are trying to say, and the point they are making. But even then some of the thickest still do not get it, so they pick up a gun and then go and do the same thing, and use it on someone else, then someone else does the same and shoots them DURR!!! And then people scratch there heads and wonder why America has the highest murder rate in the world. If America was not so gun happy in the first place you would not need guns "for protection" I'm surprised that seems to go over so many peoples heads, its bizarre.

623716[/snapback]

What's to get? Losing a loved one doesn't instantly turn everyone into a fearful liberal socialist afraid of their own shadow. If someone came at me with a knife I'd be thankful for having a gun, if came at me with a gun I'd be thankful I had a gun, if someone came at me with an ak47 I'd be thankful I had a gun, if someone was shelling me I'd be thankful I had a gun... btw... I don't own any guns. I hope you can understand that. If not... well... I don't understand you so I guess we're even?

Fully agree but it is not just the gun crime it has an effect on the children that live in houses where the guns are kept.. how many innocent kids have been killed or injured that find guns hidden in their homes and then thought they were toys.

Guns for defensive reasons... where does this stop, I then get a Machine gun because my aggressor has one.

And it's the Guns fault!? Just full of assinine points here huh. Damn, Susie just drank a galleon of bleach, at least the gun was in a safe place... There's even a statistic for cats killing kids directly or through allergy/disease. At some point guardians of children need to open their eyes and protect their children themselves. You can't ask the government to do it you lazy good for nothing parents, do it yourselves. For goodness sake put covers on your outlets too. Damn kid in this town electrocuted himself a couple weeks ago. But it's the electricity's fault I guess.

The problem with America is there to far down the road, Americans Love the M.A.D concept. The American way is fine with me none of them come whining when a stray bullet or stressed out teenager guns down someone they love.

What's the M.A.D. concept? You're right. For the most part we don't whine and moan and complain about the Gun when something goes bad. The person yes, the objects are treated for the most part as objects. Unless you're talking about say the flaming liberal 9th circus court of appeals... they'll say the gun did it all by itself and the criminal was forced by the gun to pull the trigger.

Violent crime in Glasgow is higher than NYC because we Drink to get absolutely mashed, the difference is Guys fight they both usually walk away someone pulls out a gun one guys dead the other has nothing to lose.

oook... I don't get it. Happens there too. is there a problem with concequences in Glasgow? Do they blame the gun?

Padawan your Views are skewed your attitude towards guns is typical of what I have expected from Film and TV for a Texan gun slinging wannabe. Firearms are nessecary in your country, but don't proclaim and sing about them.

I hate hollywood for giving the world this funny view of America and Americans. I hear people over seas still comparing everyone here to "Rambo" and I'm like omgwtfbbqsause!!??1?11!one1!!? And then we give them farenhight 911, wag the dog... and then the sheeple of the world believe it.

You mention other countries allot on these gun threads citing that countries where gun laws were passed ended up being attacked by their government. you Cited the Jews in Germany WWII Era. Excactly how are Normal Citizens going to stand against an Orginised national Army with Armoured vechiles, daisy cutters, Laser guided missiles, cluster bombs, M16 Assault rifles with grenade launchers, night vision, satellite Imagining support etc etc.

Just like they did at Waco. Just like they did at the Alamo. Just like they did in Baltimore against the British. Sometimes we'll win, most times we'll die, every time we will fight to the death for what we believe in. That's why incrementalism is so important.

You think if George Dubya decided the Texans deserved to be quashed with the might of the US military you would actually stand a chance ?

You have Firearms not Tactical Warfare Munitions

heh... well... yes. I think we would. Either that, or we'll be squashed. Either way, GWB knows that to do that he WILL have a fight. And for alot of dictators and cowards, that's enought to keep them in check.

And then people scratch there heads and wonder why America has the highest murder rate in the world.

it has a somewhat higher rate amongst first world nations, as for the reasons, let me assure you, if you had any idea about the subject you wouldn't be blaming the proliferation of firearms, instead you would be looking towards things such as drugs and gangs, something the US has to a far greater extent than that in most other 1st world nations

Thank you bathory. It's a problem with society to be sure. War on drugs is a Huge factor.

Edit: Whenever I do alot of quotes, it seems to break on me. Anyone see anything wrong with the syntax? Ahh well, not much I can do, but I apologize... looks terrible bleh.

Edited May 16, 2005 by Celumnaz