Anti-gun protests in London

[Commander CMG]

actually gun crime in america isnt too bad because the gangs here cant shoot worth s***!

recently 2 gangs fired away at each other at close range for 25 minutes I think and only ONE person got wounded, and it was a gang member. thank god those idiots cant shoot otherwise there would have been many more wounded or dead

626764[/snapback]

Exactly.. this is what I am saying... what if these fools start a shoot out in a crowded environment.. they walk away and the kids in the pushchairs are the victims.

626782[/snapback]

oh no, the gang idiots couldnt even hit a crowd

626803[/snapback]

You can't miss a crowd. Your comment proves that guns in the wrong hands is dangerous.

[TheOriginalF]

That's exactly it, for every competent gun owner there is another that isn't. I think we do an okay job at weeding out those how shouldn't have guns, but we certainly don't do enough. If everybody that owned a gun was responsible and competent with a fire arm then gun violence wouldn't be a problem.

So we have to ask ourselves if the right to own a gun is worth the amount of violence and death we are putting up with in the process. Which is more important?

EDIT: that first line should read "for every competent gun owner there is probably another who isn't"...Simply putting forth an idea and not a statisical fact.

Edited May 17, 2005 by TheOriginalF

[Commander CMG]

That's exactly it, for every competent gun owner there is another that isn't. I think we do an okay job at weeding out those how shouldn't have guns, but we certainly don't do enough. If everybody that owned a gun was responsible and competent with a fire arm then gun violence wouldn't be a problem.

So we have to ask ourselves if the right to own a gun is worth the amount of violence and death we are putting up with in the process. Which is more important?

626837[/snapback]

Safety and security, that is what is important, gun control is a start. I know that when I go to bed in a few minutes from now that their is a very low probability that is some punk broke into my house and woke me up he would not be armed with a gun.

[twpdyp]

Bottom line is just like the bumper sticker says "You can have my guns when you can pry them from my cold dead fingers". There is no way that you will ever see a ban on hand guns in this country, the public out cry would be heard the world over. You obviously do not understand my country men. My guns are a hobby and for defensive purposes. I do not hunt but I target shoot and there is even as you read this a 12 gauge pump shotgun under my bed loaded with "00" buck shot. I pity the fool who tries to come through my front door in the middle of the night. If he perchance escapes the rath of the 12 gauge then there is a .44 magnum pistol on the nightstand, loaded with hollow point cartridges. I carry this weapon, I have a permit to do so. If you approach me while I am conducting business at the local ATM I will defend myself, a .44 magnum pistol can stop any aggressor. My wife is also permitted to carry a concealed weapon, her's is a .357 revolver. There are 10 weapons in our collection and we add more on a fairly consistent basis.

The above mentioned weapons, and a .223 bushmaster, a 30.06 rifle, a 9mm automatic pistol, a pair of .38 hammerless short barreled revolvers, a .22 rifle and finally a .22 automatic pistol. Now you see the extent of our hobby, in my mind no different than the guy who owns more than 2 motorcycles or collects stamps. There is no way I could explain the hobby to you same as I would not understand why anyone would want or desire more than 2 motorcycles. A hobby is a personal thing that an outsider would be hard pressed to understand. I fully understand your points and agree there is to much gun violence but banning something is not a good idea. It was tried in this country in the 1920's, and it failed miserably. They tried without success to ban alcohol. When they made the attempt only the criminals got rich and people still got their booze. Same would happen if a gun ban was tried, I would still find a way to have my guns, period and end of story.

[Commander CMG]

Bottom line is just like the bumper sticker says "You can have my guns when you can pry them from my cold dead fingers". There is no way that you will ever see a ban on hand guns in this country, the public out cry would be heard the world over. You obviously do not understand my country men. My guns are a hobby and for defensive purposes. I do not hunt but I target shoot and there is even as you read this a 12 gauge pump shotgun under my bed loaded with "00" buck shot. I pity the fool who tries to come through my front door in the middle of the night. If he perchance escapes the rath of the 12 gauge then there is a .44 magnum pistol on the nightstand, loaded with hollow point cartridges. I carry this weapon, I have a permit to do so. If you approach me while I am conducting business at the local ATM I will defend myself, a .44 magnum pistol can stop any aggressor. My wife is also permitted to carry a concealed weapon, her's is a .357 revolver. There are 10 weapons in our collection and we add more on a fairly consistent basis.

The above mentioned weapons, and a .223 bushmaster, a 30.06 rifle, a 9mm automatic pistol, a pair of .38 hammerless short barreled revolvers, a .22 rifle and finally a .22 automatic pistol.  Now you see the extent of our hobby, in my mind no different than the guy who owns more than 2 motorcycles or collects stamps. There is no way I could explain the hobby to you same as I would not understand why anyone would want or desire more than 2 motorcycles. A hobby is a personal thing that an outsider would be hard pressed to understand. I fully understand your points and agree there is to much gun violence but banning something is not a good idea. It was tried in this country in the 1920's, and it failed miserably. They tried without success to ban alcohol. When they made the attempt only the criminals got rich and people still got their booze. Same would happen if a gun ban was tried, I would still find a way to have my guns, period and end of story.

626886[/snapback]

Makes me glad and proad to be British.

[TheOriginalF]

Keeping guns as a hobby is fine, but like I posted earlier is that hobby worth the amount of violence and death that allowing armed citizens brings with it? You sound like a responsible person twpdyp, but that doesn't mean that everybody else is and those are the ones that most anti gun people have a problem with. If you can assure that everybody who has a gun will be responsible with it than fine, but until than we have a big problem.

And why is everybody so paranoid and scared of being attacked and robbed? It sounds to me like a gun is a security blanket to you people, I have never in my life worried about being robbed, attacked or killed. It's something I just don't think about, if it happens it happens, but I refuse worry about it or go out of my way to arm myself to the teeth because I'm "afraid" of those around me.

[Commander CMG]

Keeping guns as a hobby is fine, but like I posted earlier is that hobby worth the amount of violence and death that allowing armed citizens brings with it? You sound like a responsible person twpdyp, but that doesn't mean that everybody else is and those are the ones that most anti gun people have a problem with. If you can assure that everybody who has a gun will be responsible with it than fine, but until than we have a big problem.

And why is everybody so paranoid and scared of being attacked and robbed? It sounds to me like a gun is a security blanket to you people, I have never in my life worried about being robbed, attacked or killed. It's something I just don't think about, if it happens it happens, but I refuse worry about it or go out of my way to arm myself to the teeth because I'm "afraid" of those around me.

626927[/snapback]

Now that is a different discussion... being afraid of being robbed, raped killed and the rest depends on where you live.. start a new discussion?

[SnakeProphet]

Keeping guns as a hobby is fine, but like I posted earlier is that hobby worth the amount of violence and death that allowing armed citizens brings with it? You sound like a responsible person twpdyp, but that doesn't mean that everybody else is and those are the ones that most anti gun people have a problem with. If you can assure that everybody who has a gun will be responsible with it than fine, but until than we have a big problem.

And why is everybody so paranoid and scared of being attacked and robbed? It sounds to me like a gun is a security blanket to you people, I have never in my life worried about being robbed, attacked or killed. It's something I just don't think about, if it happens it happens, but I refuse worry about it or go out of my way to arm myself to the teeth because I'm "afraid" of those around me.

626927[/snapback]

Now that is a different discussion... being afraid of being robbed, raped killed and the rest depends on where you live.. start a new discussion?

626934[/snapback]

Please do so.I m interested.

Edited May 17, 2005 by Snake_6024

[TheOriginalF]

I was trying to put fourth the point that people tend be much more paranoid than they really need to be and use that paranioa as an excuse to own fire arms.

I was just trying to make a point but if you'd like me to start a thread about it I suppose I can do just that.

Edited May 17, 2005 by TheOriginalF

[TheOriginalF]

Okay, here ya go

Unexplained Mysteries

[Faeden]

Hi XSAS

Makes me glad and proad to be British.

I am with you on this, twpdyp post was a shocking example of what is wrong with the mentality of the people who just cant see what is staring them in the face, there love and there obsession for there precious tools of death is blinding them. I am not patriotic at all especially after Blair blindly went into a illegal war as it was then I lost the last of any patriotic feelings I used to have, but twpdyp comments do spell out what is wrong with the pro-gun people, it does bring back some love for my country, there comments make you realise just how lucky we are, and I suppose I should respect that about Britain, but I can see we are slowly catching there disease, and are going the same way as the blinded pro-aggression people.

I suppose humans will not realise there stupidity until they have destroyed the planet with the weapons they have built up, and they stand in the ashes looking at the destruction and death, maybe then the remaining people will think to them selves 'oh my how stupid have we all been'... But then it will be too late wont it? Just like its to late when someone loses a son or daughter because of gun violence, it seem people only realise what I and others are trying to say when they have had to suffer the worst of all horrors. Sometimes you do not realise what you have got until its gone. People keep babbling on about how guns make America free, well from where I am sitting its just making them prisoners in there own homes and paranoid, and the more the guns are carried, the more deaths will happen which will just feed the fear that is causing the gun obsession in the first place, like someone said its like a vicious circle.

All the best

Faeden

[static]

I understand where twpdyp is coming from. I keep a gun under my bed incase someone breaks in my house. Though i would never carry a gun with me.

But i am not going to let anyone come in my house, on my land, and rob me with out a fight. That just isn't gonna happen. I have things that cannot be replaced no matter how much money someone gives me. For instance i have a vase with my great great great grandfathers ashes in it. And i know that if a robber was to rob me, they would take that vase. And more than likly he would por out the ashes of my great great great grandfathers ashes and they would be gone for ever. Something that cannot be replaced is gone forever.

[bathory]

to put it blubtly, the antigun people aren't about saving lives, they are simply about upholding a silly irrational ideaology. There is plenty of evidence out there that shows removing guns from the populace does absolutely nothing in regards to overall rates and such.

[Faeden]

to put it blubtly, the antigun people aren't about saving lives, they are simply about upholding a silly irrational ideaology. There is plenty of evidence out there that shows removing guns from the populace does absolutely nothing in regards to overall rates and such.

627412[/snapback]

Is it just coincidence then that America has the highest gun violence and murder rate in the world, and they are the most gun obsessed? And that other countries that aren’t gun obsessed and where guns are not legal have a much lower murder rate and gun crime rate? Some people will argue until they are blue in the face to keep there traditions, even if they are openly barbaric and evil, its amazing, its almost paranormal........

[TheOriginalF]

I think the same can be said about the pro gun folks as well bathory, they are simply trying to uphold their own ideology even it means guns may wind up in the hands of unbalanced and irresponsible people.

So let's see some of these studies to show that removing guns does nothing to help the overall violence situation. I think it's obvious that other countries who have removed them don't have the same high level of gun violence that we do here in the states...why is that?

[Celumnaz]

Truth is, U.S. crime rates are at a 30-year low.

here's our firearm offenses

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/percentfirearm.htm

and our weapons of choice as homicide

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/weapons.htm

and more at http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/welcome.html

Where in the world are you guys getting your statistics!? moveon.org???

[TheOriginalF]

Lets take a look at the statistics at the Bureau of Justice, even though violent crime is down we still have almost 400,000 hand gun deaths in 2003! That is just completely unacceptable, how can we justify owning handguns when that many people have died at the hands of them?

Edited May 18, 2005 by TheOriginalF

[PadawanOsswe]

because handguns are not evil

[bathory]

Is it just coincidence then that America has the highest gun violence and murder rate in the world, and they are the most gun obsessed? And that other countries that aren’t gun obsessed and where guns are not legal have a much lower murder rate and gun crime rate? wacko.gif Some people will argue until they are blue in the face to keep there traditions, even if they are openly barbaric and evil, its amazing, its almost paranormal........

is it a coincidence that if you actually had a clue regarding this subject you would realise that canada has more guns per house hold than the US yet a vastly lower rate of gun violence.

Guns aren't the problem, there are factors at play people are too stupid (afraid perhaps, because it will inevitably touch on race and culture) to even try and address.

I think the same can be said about the pro gun folks as well bathory, they are simply trying to uphold their own ideology even it means guns may wind up in the hands of unbalanced and irresponsible people.

no because as it is, I have the actual facts and statistics backing me up, i'm not using appeal to emotion arguements, i'm not making illogical arguements

This is how the usual argument with an antigun person goes

"banning guns does absolutely nothing to lower the overall rate of murder and crime"

"yeah but you'll save a few lives"

"well the only lives you'll save are those attributed to massacres which for all intents and purposes make up a statistically insignificant number of murders in any country"

"yeah but they'd be alive"

"but then you aren't factoring in self defensive purposes of firearms"

"yeah but they could like accidentally kill someone"

*this will then continue into a wonderfull argument in which antigun person says you should hide under your bed and hope the intruder in your home goes away, to which i would go out, buy a gun (illegally, as i'm in australia and can't be arsed getting a licence) and shoot myself at how an otherwise intelligent person can turn into a gibbering idiot simply because they put a emotionally based ideology in the placed of cold hard reason and fact:)

So let's see some of these studies to show that removing guns does nothing to help the overall violence situation. I think it's obvious that other countries who have removed them don't have the same high level of gun violence that we do here in the states...why is that?

I don't have any studies, its been years since i've researched this stuff (much of it was my own research, looking at stats and such), what you will find is if you look at countries such as Australia, UK wherever, they will have banned guns, and the crime rate will have remained the same (in the UKs case, they went up significantly, Australia I think went up very slightly, however we have quite a small amount of crime that a single death could create a huge percentage increase)

Of course it is obvious that countries who remove guns will see a reduction in gun related crime, this however is irrelevant, its like saying "hey gun crime is down, crimes with knives are up, looks like we are doing something right", i hope what i'm saying here is pretty self explanitory, lowering one method of homicide is pretty meaningless if the criminals make up for it using other methods.

Now asking why the US has a proportionally larger amount of murder and rape in comparison to other western countries is allot more difficult, and requires actual thought instead of a knee jerk, GUNS argument. Please note i haven't really looked into the rape issue so i won't be addressing it.

Murder in my opinion is a result of many many factors, geography plays a role, the US would be quite a bit warmer than its european cousins, i think you'll find that the warmer the climate, the higher the rate of violence, so keep that in mind when i say there are many factors:)

the drug trade is also another factor, i would imagine the US drug trade is substantially larger than that of its european counterparts.

gangs, a spin off of the drug trade perhaps, a social issue encompassing race, culture and socio-economics

now we touch on race/culture which may bristle some feathers

african-american culture, fact, 13.3% of the US population accounts for 49% of homicide victims, this mostly ties in drugs and gangs

eh i can't be arsed thinking of more stuff...its 4:15am here heh

[wunarmdscissor]

is it a coincidence that if you actually had a clue regarding this subject you would realise that canada has more guns per house hold than the US yet a vastly lower rate of gun violence.

Guns aren't the problem, there are factors at play people are too stupid (afraid perhaps, because it will inevitably touch on race and culture) to even try and address.

exactly the point that michael moore made.

whod have thought you bathory of all people agreeing with michael moore.

alas tis a wonderful day.

[bathory]

exactly the point that michael moore made.

whod have thought you bathory of all people agreeing with michael moore.

alas tis a wonderful day.

heh unfortunately Michael Moore didn't actually address the cultural and racial issues regarding gun violence.

Not once did he touch on gangs

Not once did he touch on drugs

the image Mr Moore creates is one of a racist white paranoid gun crazy culture responsible for all the killing, not so:)

*note*

i don't think i've ever disagreed with Moore regarding the idea that Americas problems are culture/racial, I've just disagreed with where he took this point because in my eyes where he took it was incorrect and failed to address the problem:)

[wunarmdscissor]

lol im not gettn involed in this thread , you and a few others know my thoughts, these threads go round and round in everdecreasing circles lol

[Faeden]

I have seen that Michael Moore makes pro-violence people very uncomfortable, which is why they get angry, and will try and defend them selves no matter what. But I do agree Michael Moore should have gone more into the gang and drug issues of guns which is (some of the problem) I think the biggest problem with guns in America is the people that use them and buy them, but not always, but mostly, are not the brightest of sparks, and common sense is something they only read about, or should I say see on TV, and when they do see it, they call it anti American. Michael Moore did not really cover gangs and drugs like maybe he should have, but he fitted in as much as he could, you cant expect him to cover everything, but he did do a good job of exposing the facts when it comes to guns in America, he never beat around the bush, which will always make those in denial uncomfortable, as they do not like to confront the issues associated with guns, all they want to do is selfishly continue there gun obsession.

If the claim is right that Canadians have more guns than Americans then maybe that is proof about what I said above, that its the Americans attitude, being they have a huge population that are pro-violence and war obsessed, especially in the south. Even in recent wars, people have exposed huge corruption, even giving undismissable evidence on camera, but still the pro war and pro violence people looked for excuses to try and blacken the names of the good people exposing the evils that go on in war and in a violence obsessed America. Is it just coincidence that most of the people that love guns are the same people that are pro-war and pro-violence? Nope its the fact that aggressive people will always try and defend aggressive things aggressively, even if evidence is shown to them right in there face.

Perhaps Michael Moore can cover the drug and gang issue next time, theirs enough evidence that drugs and gangs are also apart of the American gun problem, but blaming that, and that alone is just stupid. I think one of the points Moore was trying to say, is that shootings of teenagers happen all the time in the ghetto where blacks and the Hispanics live, and it hardly makes the news paper, when a white person is killed in a mostly white area its world news, making it seem like the black or Hispanic teenager killed was less important. The white run societies in America blame rap music, or scapegoats like Marilyn Manson, rather than confront the reason the why these school shootings happen, and that its the ignorance that goes on in white American middle class societies. These so called good Christian families would rather blame the devil than actually open there eyes and see that its ignorant attitudes like theirs on guns and how people are made social outcasts or evil people just because they are different. Its a mixture of these things that causes tragic things like murder in all communities to happen.

I am also aware that the pro-violence people will get mad at my beliefs and attack me on here, so I forgive you in advance lol

All the best

Faeden

Edited May 18, 2005 by Faeden

[Celumnaz]

pro violence? Is that like what the environmentalists try to pass off as people are pro-breathing dirty air?

[Faeden]

Hi Celumnaz

I do not know if its that your highly intelligent, and that I am highly dumb, or the other way around, but I never seem to understand any point you make on here. Sorry What have environmentalists got to do with anything? Can you explain more please ? Pro Violence is when someone is pro violence. In other words they support acts of violence, and the tools of violence, or anything else that might cause violence.

All the best

Faeden