Anti-gun protests in London

[bathory]

Lets take a look at the statistics at the Bureau of Justice, even though violent crime is down we still have almost 400,000 hand gun deaths in 2003!

yeah i just noticed that too...the US overall rate should be at around 20,000 homicides i believe

[Faeden]

it'll sound cold, it'll sound harse, but its the truth

those deaths account for a statistically insignificant amount of murders in the overall scheme of things.

We are looking at about 40 people killed in school shootings a year throughout all of the US, I do believe the number of times firearms are used for defensive purposes exceeds this by a huge margin

It doesn’t sound cold bathory, it is cold, but I am not shocked, because I have spoke to many people that are pro-guns, and most of them are cold, well you have to be to support such things, and as most of them keep blabbing on "they can have there gun, when they pry it from there dead cold hand"... at least they admit it I supposed, that is something.

I have listened to everything you have said, I always listen, because that is how you learn, but the argument is always the same, and I have heard it to many times, and if I was honest sometimes you and some of the other pro-gun people make satisfactory arguments, but at the end of the day the truth is staring people in the face, and that truth is guns are made to kill, no ifs or buts, its a fact, and they do kill, they causes chaos, horror, destruction, hate, anger, fear... Of course they cause pleasure and joy to a few people that like killing things, but then that is cold.

The pro-gun people are ways coming up with the silly suggestions that I and others are just scare mongering, but guns do cause horrible things, what do they expect me or others with my belief to say? Put pretty tinsel around the facts? They say it every time its brought up that a child is killed, or we talk about it, but when a child is killed its the most tragic type of killing, so of course that is going to be brought up, its almost as if the pro-gun people want you to be as dilutional as they are, and just pretend it is hunky dory, well that aint going to happen buster boy, I am not an anti-gun protester, and I know my ranting is not going to make much of a difference, but there are people out there that are and will and do make a difference, so the pro-gun folk better get used to it, the anti-gun people have, and are willing to go the whole hog, even if it means prying there guns from there dead cold hands

All the best

Faeden

Edited May 19, 2005 by Faeden

[TheOriginalF]

Hey all,

I have a minute so I thought I would stop in for a moment. Regarding the 400,000 statistic...I can't seem to find it either! I'm pretty sure I saw something along those lines on the Bureau of Justice sight but it may have been through my own search. Regardless I can't find it, maybe I was just tired and read the wrong statistic I don't know. If I do find the link again I'll post it here, however in the meantime I'll retract it. Sorry for the confusion.

[Celumnaz]

no problem! Thanks for clearing that up... I was kinda goin nuts looking haha...

Going on the report that crime is down, and taking the 2002 number of 8,286 I'm giong to make a totally unscientific guess and say maybe the 2003 number is about 8,000.

On other sites I *have* seen that 400,000 number bandied about as the number of *Defensive* uses of firearms in 2003, and the number of fatalities in defensive use is 1 out of 1000, but since they're not .gov or .edu sites posting the sources is kindof useless as the accusation of bias couldn't be denied. There is no accurate government sponsored statistic on defensive uses of firearms that I've seen. They don't bother to study it, just like marijuana, no accurate thorough study... wonder why?

[static]

I hope there are no children in these houses where guns are hidden in secret places like that?

I should have explained that. I don't have kids. And the gun in not loaded and it has a gun lock, but a loaded clip is sitting on my head broad and the key to the lock is in a hidden location which i am sure that only i know about. But it is in a place that i can grab the key, unlock the gun, load it, and cockit in a sort amount of time

[PadawanOsswe]

This is a good comment:

"I wouldnt even neccessarilly kill someone in home-defense, ide probably just shoot someone in the foot so that they can be arrested."

You watch too many Hollywood movies, that does not work and if it did what you going to do ask them to stand still while I turn on the light so I can shoot you in the foot, I think that comment proves your extensive knowledge on firearms.

I still am trying to work out why a rifle can't be carried while climbing a mountain and comments on keeping my gun under the bed, an unarmed burgler would never think to look there??? I hope there are no children in these houses where guns are hidden in secret places like that?

Guns are a problem in the wrong hands, I don't think anyone would dispute that the trouble is they are so easily accessible to the wrong people, gun control is about restrictinng people access to weapons, the less people that have them the less problem you have with them... everyone here trying to justify having a gun is paranoid and scared.. that already is a recipe for disaster.

629362[/snapback]

I dunno bout you XSAS but I come from a long line of damn good shots. and I am not paranoid and scared, I own firearms just for the hell of it. I am a responsible shooter, andjust because some damn idiot kids went on a rampage shooting doesnt mean ban firearms, but make sure who has them.

[Commander CMG]

This is a good comment:

"I wouldnt even neccessarilly kill someone in home-defense, ide probably just shoot someone in the foot so that they can be arrested."

You watch too many Hollywood movies, that does not work and if it did what you going to do ask them to stand still while I turn on the light so I can shoot you in the foot, I think that comment proves your extensive knowledge on firearms.

I still am trying to work out why a rifle can't be carried while climbing a mountain and comments on keeping my gun under the bed, an unarmed burgler would never think to look there??? I hope there are no children in these houses where guns are hidden in secret places like that?

Guns are a problem in the wrong hands, I don't think anyone would dispute that the trouble is they are so easily accessible to the wrong people, gun control is about restrictinng people access to weapons, the less people that have them the less problem you have with them... everyone here trying to justify having a gun is paranoid and scared.. that already is a recipe for disaster.

629362[/snapback]

I dunno bout you XSAS but I come from a long line of damn good shots. and I am not paranoid and scared, I own firearms just for the hell of it. I am a responsible shooter, andjust because some damn idiot kids went on a rampage shooting doesnt mean ban firearms, but make sure who has them.

630331[/snapback]

I would not question how good a shot I am, trust me I don't think you need to go there, however until your post I did not realize that accuracy was a genetic thing carried down through generations, what does it take then to ban firearms in the USA..how many kids need to be killed???

Your comment about making sure who has them??? is this not what this discussion is about "GUN CONTROL"

[Commander CMG]

If you start controlling who carries then at least it is a start to controlling street gangs being able to carry and bear arms for defence surely contributes to the fact a gang defending themselves thinks it is justified against another gang for defensive purposes.

That is no different to you blowing an intruder away in defence.

what are you on about?

a murder which is attributed to gangs is no different to a murder by some random joe against another random joe, legally that is.

By the same token, a legal defesive use of a firearm is exactly that, there is no relativity in what constitutes as a defensive use of a firearm if thats what you are trying to argue.

Gangland killings aren't about some random guy going crazy and killing a few people, so removing firearms isn't going to stop the violence because the violence is generally premeditated. You just end up changing either their tactics, or reliance on weaponry that will inevitably be smuggled in with the drugs. Remember the problem isn't legal owners.

629652[/snapback]

If you can justify using a firearm for self defence when an armed attacker attacks you... this is no different to a gang defending themselves against another armed gang..

Guns are smuggled in ant country but they don't have the problems the USA have because many of them have gun control.. if you start restricting access to them then you start to build on that... I know it is not an overnight solution but it is a start.

[Commander CMG]

In answer to your question XSAS, it's difficult to carry a rifle climbing up a mountain because I often have to use both hands. It's difficult terrain to manage, hence the term climb as opposed to hike. If I were to have a strap with a rifle hung behind my back I would be putting myself at unnecessary risk of it getting snagged on something causing me to loose my footing and tumbling down the mountain.

629738[/snapback]

Thanks for your explanation but there are straps that fit and reduce the snagging factor. However I am not sure if they are available to the public but I could check?

[gollum]

Dont know about you XSAS but I got 54 OUT OF 60 in my last APWT (without the night shoot) and that is slightly above average for my unit. Do you think the average joe would achieve the same standard, considering the reason we have pop up targets?

(Pop up targets are designed to give you a real time example of combat situations. They give the firer the impression of being in a combat environment and allow them to engage the target at different ranges).

(We also have CQB drills(those are Close Quarter Battle) and those drills are a hell of a lot more intense.

[Commander CMG]

I hope there are no children in these houses where guns are hidden in secret places like that?

I should have explained that. I don't have kids. And the gun in not loaded and it has a gun lock, but a loaded clip is sitting on my head broad and the key to the lock is in a hidden location which i am sure that only i know about. But it is in a place that i can grab the key, unlock the gun, load it, and cockit in a sort amount of time

630081[/snapback]

Thanks for the explanation.. however we now know that if an armed assailant broke into your home the gun is useless unless they make a big fuss in getting in thruogh the basement to allow you time to prepare your weapon, my concern was children that had or may have access to a loaded gun under your bed, another question... why not invest in a good alarm system?

[Celumnaz]

nosey rosey meddling neighbors are fun

[Commander CMG]

Dont know about you XSAS but I got 54 OUT OF 60 in my last APWT (without the night shoot) and that is slightly above average for my unit. Do you think the average joe  would achieve the same standard, considering the reason we have pop up targets?

(Pop up targets are designed to give you a real time example of combat situations. They give the firer the impression of being in a combat environment and allow them to engage the target at different ranges).

(We also have CQB drills(those are Close Quarter Battle) and those drills are a hell of a lot more intense.

630413[/snapback]

"A little knowledge is a dangerous thing" That decribes the average Joe's knowledge on firearms, CQB and Hostage rescue training are intense to say the least in a training environment and has much as you try to reconstruct it in a building, train, Submarine, plane, bus etc.. etc, in real life it takes on a faster and more intense experience.

[Michelle]

Thanks for the offer XSAS but I prefer a handgun because I don't want to flaunt the fact that I have a weapon unless I am in need of it.

[Commander CMG]

Thanks for the offer XSAS but I prefer a handgun because I don't want to flaunt the fact that I have a weapon unless I am in need of it.

630425[/snapback]

Good thinking and that is the is the foundation of gun control.. I used the same principle in South Africa and it worked, however on a different scale.

[bathory]

If you can justify using a firearm for self defence when an armed attacker attacks you... this is no different to a gang defending themselves against another armed gang..

tell me, what happens if the attacking 'gang' kills someone? its called murder

the 'defending' gang could perhaps get away with a defensive killing if its members who get caught up in it all can demonstrate they used reasonable force and such. They could also get picked up for, carrying a concealed weapon, or having an unregistered firearm. Your comparison is ridiculous.

[static]

Thanks for the explanation.. however we now know that if an armed assailant broke into your home the gun is useless unless they make a big fuss in getting in through the basement to allow you time to prepare your weapon, my concern was children that had or may have access to a loaded gun under your bed, another question... why not invest in a good alarm system?

I really see no reason for a alarm. The guy has a good 20-30 minutes before the cops get there, so only good that would do is hopefully scare him off.

Now take my gun under my bed. It is very unlikely that he would be rumbling though the basement seeing as i don't have one. So this leads him to either kicking down the door or breaking a window. Now first he must get onto my property. Which then my dog would start barking and if that doesn't wake me up him pounding on the door or breaking a window will. Now i don't know if i will have enough time to unlock and load my gun, but if he gives me a 30 second window i will have it loaded.

Now if lived in a city i wouldn't have a gun, but sicne i live in a very rural community that only has 14 officers in the whole county. So i feel the need to have a gun for protection.

Edited May 20, 2005 by static

[Commander CMG]

If you can justify using a firearm for self defence when an armed attacker attacks you... this is no different to a gang defending themselves against another armed gang..

tell me, what happens if the attacking 'gang' kills someone? its called murder

the 'defending' gang could perhaps get away with a defensive killing if its members who get caught up in it all can demonstrate they used reasonable force and such. They could also get picked up for, carrying a concealed weapon, or having an unregistered firearm. Your comparison is ridiculous.

630758[/snapback]

My comparison is by far ridiculaous, it ie there justification of self defence, you are assuiming they are carrying unlicenced weapons, they are just defending themselves liek you would agains an agressor. You have no gun control and try to justify self defence actions at an angle that suits your defence for carrying.

Gung ho America... sets a great example to the younger generation growing up paranoid and in fear of attack.

[Celumnaz]

My comparison is by far ridiculaous, it ie there justification of self defence, you are assuiming they are carrying unlicenced weapons, they are just defending themselves liek you would agains an agressor. You have no gun control and try to justify self defence actions at an angle that suits your defence for carrying.

Gung ho America... sets a great example to the younger generation growing up paranoid and in fear of attack.

631158[/snapback]

I really don't get your point if there is one. It's all made up "evidence", made up "points", emotional arguments. You mean there's absolutely no sociological factors!? wow, ignorance at it's best on display. The only paranoia I see is an irrational fear of guns. Oh, and nobody ****ing shot up a school yesterday! I forgot to mention that. Amazing isn't it? You'd think all the school children would be dead, what with 400,000 handgun murders and all...

Man I hope people realize that 400,000 number is non-exsistant, but even with the correction and retraction, I'm willing to bet someone reading this post still thinks it's true. It fits with their world view, it has to be true, even if it's not, it has to be, so it is.

[TheOriginalF]

Yet I still have yet to hear one valid argument as to why anybody needs a handgun, so far I've heard convenience and hobby. I'm sorry but I don't think either of those justify anybody needing a a tool that was simply designed to kill. You say Celumnaz, that it's just an irrational fear of handguns, I would also venture to say that people who are hung up on self defense have an irrational fear of those around them. Of course that only works if we want to get into stereotyping everybody...but it's a two way street.

As for the 400,000 statistic I messed up it happens, let it drop. I realised myself how ridiculous it looked the next morning when I saw it...but it if you'd like to keep harping on it feel free...

[Commander CMG]

My comparison is by far ridiculaous, it ie there justification of self defence, you are assuiming they are carrying unlicenced weapons, they are just defending themselves liek you would agains an agressor. You have no gun control and try to justify self defence actions at an angle that suits your defence for carrying.

Gung ho America... sets a great example to the younger generation growing up paranoid and in fear of attack.

631158[/snapback]

I really don't get your point if there is one. It's all made up "evidence", made up "points", emotional arguments. You mean there's absolutely no sociological factors!? wow, ignorance at it's best on display. The only paranoia I see is an irrational fear of guns. Oh, and nobody ****ing shot up a school yesterday! I forgot to mention that. Amazing isn't it? You'd think all the school children would be dead, what with 400,000 handgun murders and all...

Man I hope people realize that 400,000 number is non-exsistant, but even with the correction and retraction, I'm willing to bet someone reading this post still thinks it's true. It fits with their world view, it has to be true, even if it's not, it has to be, so it is.

631401[/snapback]

Good I am glad no one was shot in school today... as for your 400k figure, I never mentioned that statistic however I did show the real stats on recent school shootings in an earlier post. An irrational fear of guns... don't make me laugh.

[Celumnaz]

Yet I still have yet to hear one valid argument as to why anybody needs a handgun, so far I've heard convenience and hobby.

Cause it's none of anybody's business. If you don't have a reason, don't have one. <shrug> I don't have one. I'm not so self-centric, egotistical, or control freakish that I need to control everyone else's life.

I'm sorry but I don't think either of those justify anybody needing a a tool that was simply designed to kill. You say Celumnaz, that it's just an irrational fear of handguns, I would also venture to say that people who are hung up on self defense have an irrational fear of those around them. Of course that only works if we want to get into stereotyping everybody...but it's a two way street.

But that'd be wrong. I don't even have an alarm system in my house, how paranoid is that!? Don't own a gun, or a taser, or a dog. We've posted the statistics, so what do we have left? An emotional plea. An emotional plea based on what? Statistics? no. Fear... yep!

As for the 400,000 statistic I messed up it happens, let it drop. I realised myself how ridiculous it looked the next morning when I saw it...but it if you'd like to keep harping on it feel free...

I know, it's fine, I don't mean to rub salt in wounds believe me. But the fact is, once printed and read, it can never be taken back. Someone will carry that incorrect number on and use it in their conversations with their friends. This is how most of you guys seem to be getting your info. I'm only bringing it up asn an example, not an attack. Retractions to outrageous facts are buried in the back, the damage is done, they've already read what they "wanted" to believe, and then we get movements based on it. Rather, Newsweek, BBC, CBS, ABC, Reuters, CNN, Al-Jizzera, NBC, PBS... on and on and on and on, lies that people want to believe, it's in line with the "world view", so it has to be true. Even this original article I took apart early in the post, but STILL... ugh...

[Celumnaz]

I did show the real stats on recent school shootings in an earlier post.

Yes, truely indicative of a problem with society. Thank you for posting that.

[twpdyp]

I would like to think that most gun supporters are like me, in that I do not endorse violence nor do I seek it out. Now follow my line of thinking here for a minute.

I am standing at the ATM, my .44 magnum visible. Someone with bad intent walks up, is it not reasonable to think that just the sight of that big pistol would in and of itself be a type of deterrent. I said I am permitted to carry a concealed weapon, however I do not conceal it. Same can be said for my home, I do advertise the fact that there are guns on the property. Would it not also stand to reason that someone about to break in may have second thoughts before he kicks in my front door, if he thought there was a chance he would not live through the experience. It is not about being violent, I resent the implication that because I support gun ownership that somehow that makes me violent. To answer a point someone made on an earlier thread concerning time to use the weapons. Maybe I would not have time to pull the shotgun out from under my bed but I can be certain of one thing, if I did not have the 12 gauge there I would have no chance to defend my family if it were to become necessary. I am not out there seeking violence but I am also not going to roll over and let someone take the life of a member of my family, myself or steal our property without making an attempt to defend ourselves. The anti gun folks seem to equate gun ownership with violence. It is 2 entirely different things. Violent people will be violent with or without the possession of a gun. If I were to use the logic of the anti gun folks if I were to hear my front door crash open in the middle of the night I should just cower under the blankets until the intruder decides to either kill my family, take our belongings or both. At least with the shotgun close by I have a fighting chance to stop an intruder before he does harm to my family. Please understand I am not out looking for someone to shoot, I pray that I will never have to point any of my guns at a human being and pull the trigger. But I know in my heart I would not hesitate if I found myself in a position where I had to pull the trigger.

Edited May 20, 2005 by twpdyp

[PadawanOsswe]

I would like to think that most gun supporters are like me, in that I do not endorse violence nor do I seek it out. Now follow my line of thinking here for a minute.

I am standing at the ATM, my .44 magnum visible. Someone with bad intent walks up, is it not reasonable to think that just the sight of that big pistol would in and of itself be a type of deterrent. I said I am permitted to carry a concealed weapon, however I do not conceal it. Same can be said for my home, I do advertise the fact that there are guns on the property. Would it not also stand to reason that someone about to break in may have second thoughts before he kicks in my front door, if he thought there was a chance he would not live through the experience. It is not about being violent, I resent the implication that because I support gun ownership that somehow that makes me violent. To answer a point someone made on an earlier thread concerning time to use the weapons. Maybe I would not have time to pull the shotgun out from under my bed but I can be certain of one thing, if I did not have the 12 gauge there I would have no chance to defend my family if it were to become necessary. I am not out there seeking violence but I am also not going to roll over and let someone take the life of a member of my family, myself or steal our property without making an attempt to defend ourselves. The anti gun folks seem to equate gun ownership with violence. It is 2 entirely different things. Violent people will be violent with or without the possession of a gun. If I were to use the logic of the anti gun folks if I were to hear my front door crash open in the middle of the night I should just cower under the blankets until the intruder decides to either kill my family, take our belongings or both. At least with the shotgun close by I have a fighting chance to stop an intruder before he does harm to my family. Please understand I am not out looking for someone to shoot, I pray that I will never have to point any of my guns at a human being and pull the trigger. But I know in my heart I would not hesitate if I found myself in a position where I had to pull the trigger.

631763[/snapback]

well said twpdyp