Prove why Christianinty is the TRUE religion

[Bluefinger]

"In the 4th century, St. John Chrysostom and other bishops argued against including this book in the New Testament canon, chiefly because of the difficulties of interpreting it and the danger for abuse. Christians in Syria also reject it because of the Montanists' heavy reliance on it. In the 9th century, it was included with the Apocalypse of Peter among "disputed" books in the Stichometry of St. Nicephorus, Patriarch of Constantinople. In the end it was included in the accepted canon, although it remains the only book of the New Testament that is not read within the Divine Liturgy of the Eastern Orthodox Church." ~ Wikipedia

"Revelation is considered one of the most controversial and difficult books of the Bible, with many diverse interpretations of the meanings of the various names and events in the account. Protestant founder Martin Luther considered Revelation to be "neither apostolic nor prophetic" and stated that "Christ is neither taught nor known in it" [2]." ~Wikipedia

Well, let Martin Luther say what he thinks, but let Revelation speak for itself.

Revelation 1:1 ¶The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Revelation 1:9 ¶I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 2:1 ¶Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.

4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

8 ¶And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

12 ¶And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;

13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.

16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

18 ¶And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;

19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.

20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.

25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

28 And I will give him the morning star.

29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

3:1 ¶And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

7 ¶And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

14 ¶And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Here, is Jesus himself speaking to the seven Churches, and in an essence, to all the Churches from the time he went back up to heaven.

Revelation 5:6 ¶And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Revelation 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Talking about Jesus Christ here.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14:1 ¶And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

I think I've made it clear that Revelation has everything to do with Jesus.

[scoobysnack]

WOW 800 posts!

[Venomshocker]

31 Jesus said, "No prophet is welcome on his home turf; doctors don't cure those who know them."

32 Jesus said, "A city built on a high hill and fortified cannot fall, nor can it be hidden."

33 Jesus said, "What you will hear in your ear, in the other ear proclaim from your rooftops.

~ Gospel of Thomas

Jesus, said it. It must be correct.

[scoobysnack]

Of course as Christianity is thrown into apostacy, the world will be given the alternative to be enlightened in the pure doctine and light of Lucifer. Watch for the messiah, the jews, and Muslims are waiting patiently. Prepare the red carpet, he's about to appear.

[Beckys_Mom]

Of course as Christianity is thrown into apostacy, the world will be given the alternative to be enlightened in the pure doctine and light of Lucifer. Watch for the messiah, the jews, and Muslims are waiting patiently. Prepare the red carpet, he's about to appear.

Dont tell me ...lemme guess...did Jeus send you an email?

[scoobysnack]

Dont tell me ...lemme guess...did Jeus send you an email?

It was spelled out for me with mashed potatoes in my TV dinner last night.

But seriously though, how many religions are there, that prophesy the appearance of a messiah of some sort? Better question, is there thread with all the realted prophecies between various beliefs? I think it's time for me to use the search button. Giddy-Up

[Bluefinger]

There were many books and gospels written at that time. The gospel of Judas, The gospel of Mary, The gospel of Phillip, The gospel of Thomas and many....many more. All these gospels show a very differnet picture of the Christ story. Now guess who decided which gospels were to be part of the bible and which ones werent? Guess who was in charge of this process?

Was it roman emperors and their cardinals??

Whats that have to do with who wrote the gospels?

[Venomshocker]

Whats that have to do with who wrote the gospels?

Nothing.

It has everything to do with what modern christians believe and dont believe. If the roman emperors are picking and choosing gospels, how do you know which ones give the correct story of christ?

Do you trust the roman emperors and their cardinals to choose the correct ones for you? Do you trust people like Irenaeus who were instrumental in this process? Mayby these romans and cardinals chose the wrong gospels, and gospels such as , The Gospel of -Thomas, Mary, Eve, James, Judas acutally portray the correct version of history.

[Jodie.Lynne]

Bluefinger, may one inquire as to where your interpretation of Revalations comes from? Is it your own interpretation of the passages, or did someone tell you what they mean?

I've read that book, many times, and still cannot make heads nor tails of it. It seems to me that it is the most open ended book in the whole bible.

Of course, if you believe the bible is the "only" true word of god, then you can easily deduct its meaning from your particular point of view, I suppose.

[scoobysnack]

For what it's worth, my grandma just died about three hours ago. I came from visiting her, and she died 10 minutes before I got to her place. The person watching over her in her room, said out of the blue, she opened her eyes, turned her head to look across the room at a cross hung on her wall, smiled, a tear came to her eye, and then she died.

I believe Jesus came to get her and take her home. If there is a heaven and anyone deserved to go there it was her. She was the most positive person I had ever met. She suffered from rheumatoid arthritis since she was 20, and in a wheel chair since she was 25. She was 82 when she died. I'm sad, but I know she is free of her pain, with her husband and God in Heaven. I hope to see you all there, instead of in the darkness.

From studies into the near death experiences, I'm pretty sure I know what has happened to her soul. If your interested check this out:

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/articles005.html

Edited April 26, 2006 by scoobysnack

[Jodie.Lynne]

My sincerest condolences to you and your family Scoobysnack. May your beliefs bring you all comfort and peace of mind.

[scoobysnack]

My sincerest condolences to you and your family Scoobysnack. May your beliefs bring you all comfort and peace of mind.

Thanks JMPD1, I appreciate that.

Edited April 26, 2006 by scoobysnack

[+Paranoid Android]

Nothing.

It has everything to do with what modern christians believe and dont believe. If the roman emperors are picking and choosing gospels, how do you know which ones give the correct story of christ?

Do you trust the roman emperors and their cardinals to choose the correct ones for you? Do you trust people like Irenaeus who were instrumental in this process? Mayby these romans and cardinals chose the wrong gospels, and gospels such as , The Gospel of -Thomas, Mary, Eve, James, Judas acutally portray the correct version of history.

And what happens if you run into somebody that follows ALL the gospels, including the ones not included. Throw in Enoch, Maccabees and all the rest, what if someone were to follow all of them? WOuld that change your opinion of their Faith?

Just wondering.

Bluefinger, may one inquire as to where your interpretation of Revalations comes from? Is it your own interpretation of the passages, or did someone tell you what they mean?

I've read that book, many times, and still cannot make heads nor tails of it. It seems to me that it is the most open ended book in the whole bible.

I totally agree, believe it or not

I enjoy studying revelation from an intellectual standpoint, but my beliefs are not really challenged too much by the specifics of that book, simply because it can mean so many things to so many people.

Regards, PA

Edited April 26, 2006 by Paranoid Android

[+Paranoid Android]

For what it's worth, my grandma just died about three hours ago. I came from visiting her, and she died 10 minutes before I got to her place. The person watching over her in her room, said out of the blue, she opened her eyes, turned her head to look across the room at a cross hung on her wall, smiled, a tear came to her eye, and then she died.

I believe Jesus came to get her and take her home. If there is a heaven and anyone deserved to go there it was her. She was the most positive person I had ever met. She suffered from rheumatoid arthritis since she was 20, and in a wheel chair since she was 25. She was 82 when she died. I'm sad, but I know she is free of her pain, with her husband and God in Heaven. I hope to see you all there, instead of in the darkness.

From studies into the near death experiences, I'm pretty sure I know what has happened to her soul. If your interested check this out:

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/articles005.html

My condolences to you and your family, scoobysnack.

[Jodie.Lynne]

PA agrees? with ME????

Oh surely this is a sign of the apocolpyse!

:D :D

[Venomshocker]

And what happens if you run into somebody that follows ALL the gospels, including the ones not included. Throw in Enoch, Maccabees and all the rest, what if someone were to follow all of them? WOuld that change your opinion of their Faith?

Just wondering.

Hehe, All the gospels and books have various contradictions with each other. You can't simply follow ALL of them.

And to answer your question, Yes, as soon as someone recognizes and understands that many different books have the possibilty to contain the truth no matter what their origin, it does change my opinion of their faith. It dosent matter to me, who wrote the book, or where it comes from. What important is the message and the information contained within. If the info is beneficial and enhances my understanding on a given subject of interest it is beneficial to read. Also in an attempt to gain a balanced perspective all sides of the story must be considered.

There are many versions to the Jesus story. Not too many people are aware of that. These other versions do have validity given the context and the nature of the period of time when all these versions were written down. I believe christ did not die on the cross, but a counterfeit man who was drugged and believed himself to be christ did. The man Jesus Christ and his message has been perverted by many of the early church fathers. History is written by the winners, and the winners at that time, was the holy roman empire. The lies they passed on have been blindly followed for many century's without many of its adherents questioning the source of their belief's and faith.

Edited April 26, 2006 by Venomshocker

[HarleyBlue]

There's no way to prove that Christianity is the true religion. There's no way to prove any religion is the true religion. Religion is just faith and that's all there is.... what you believe.

[zandore]

For what it's worth, my grandma just died about three hours ago.

It is worth a lot here Scooby. I am sorry for your familys loss.

[Something Like Laughter]

"In the 4th century, St. John Chrysostom and other bishops argued against including this book in the New Testament canon, chiefly because of the difficulties of interpreting it and the danger for abuse. Christians in Syria also reject it because of the Montanists' heavy reliance on it. In the 9th century, it was included with the Apocalypse of Peter among "disputed" books in the Stichometry of St. Nicephorus, Patriarch of Constantinople. In the end it was included in the accepted canon, although it remains the only book of the New Testament that is not read within the Divine Liturgy of the Eastern Orthodox Church." ~ Wikipedia

"Revelation is considered one of the most controversial and difficult books of the Bible, with many diverse interpretations of the meanings of the various names and events in the account. Protestant founder Martin Luther considered Revelation to be "neither apostolic nor prophetic" and stated that "Christ is neither taught nor known in it" [2]." ~Wikipedia

oh, i see what you are saying. i thought you ment the church just suddenly picked Revelation up one day in the 7th century. yeah its one of the few NT books that is still, to an extent, disputed. But it was widely accepted in the 4th and maybe before.

There were many books and gospels written at that time. The gospel of Judas, The gospel of Mary, The gospel of Phillip, The gospel of Thomas and many....many more. All these gospels show a very differnet picture of the Christ story. Now guess who decided which gospels were to be part of the bible and which ones werent? Guess who was in charge of this process?

Was it roman emperors and their cardinals??

if you are talking only Gospels, Roman emperors were still trying to kill Christians when all gospels except for the four in the NT were, for the most part, excluded.

Do you trust people like Irenaeus who were instrumental in this process?

whats wrong with Irenaeus?

History is written by the winners, and the winners at that time, was the holy roman empire.

Holy Roman Empire != Romans

the HRE was Charlemange's domain and later more or less Germany.

[Bearly]

For what it's worth, my grandma just died about three hours ago. I came from visiting her, and she died 10 minutes before I got to her place. The person watching over her in her room, said out of the blue, she opened her eyes, turned her head to look across the room at a cross hung on her wall, smiled, a tear came to her eye, and then she died.

I believe Jesus came to get her and take her home. If there is a heaven and anyone deserved to go there it was her. She was the most positive person I had ever met. She suffered from rheumatoid arthritis since she was 20, and in a wheel chair since she was 25. She was 82 when she died. I'm sad, but I know she is free of her pain, with her husband and God in Heaven. I hope to see you all there, instead of in the darkness.

From studies into the near death experiences, I'm pretty sure I know what has happened to her soul. If your interested check this out:

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/articles005.html

My condolences scoobysnack. She truely sounds like a wonderful person, it is difficult to maintain a positive attitude when suffering a long painful illness. People like her as you described her are among the true heros in life.

I have spoken with people who have had NDE and I have studies metaphysics and I am 100% confident that there definitely is life after death. I too believe she is now free of her pain and is in the bliss of the loving light of The Creator, may this be of some comfort to you and your family.

[Venomshocker]

whats wrong with Irenaeus?

How can you ask such a question? This is the man who made a lving being the first cheif heresy hunter of his day. This man made a living trying to destroy gnoscticism.

This is the man who was outraged that gonsitcs should venerate peopla such as Plato, Pythagerous, Aristotle and others along side christ. Irenaeous himslef was apalled that women should be priests, and take part in the Eucharist. Obviously he didnt have much respect for womens human rights.

Also If you read through his anti-gnostic works, and do a thourough in depth study of what he was attacking it is apparent he missunderstood and was ignorant of the core ideas behind what he so vehmently attempted to supress. He set the precedent for all ensuing massacres of gnostics by the christians.

[Bluefinger]

Nothing.

It has everything to do with what modern christians believe and dont believe. If the roman emperors are picking and choosing gospels, how do you know which ones give the correct story of christ?

Do you trust the roman emperors and their cardinals to choose the correct ones for you? Do you trust people like Irenaeus who were instrumental in this process? Mayby these romans and cardinals chose the wrong gospels, and gospels such as , The Gospel of -Thomas, Mary, Eve, James, Judas acutally portray the correct version of history.

I see what you are saying. However there is one catch and it goes with faith: I believe that my Father would not have it that I be misled and would preserve his truth in one manner or another. I believe he did with his word. Not only that, others kept their own Bibles before the Roman Catholic Church rose to power, even before the Bible was canonized. We know this, because those books were burned anytime they were found. Why? Because they challenged the authority of the Papacy and all the false doctrine. The common men could not have been allowed to read the Bible, lest they see for themselves and reject the Roman Catholic Authority. All this back then ofcourse. Now, as far as the canonization of the Bible, it was only in the fourth century. It wasn't too far off from the Apostles. Now it can be far enough, but that was constantly battled. People limited access to doctrine to the Bishop for that sole reason of keeping heresy out of the Church. Now, it weaken the power of the congregation, but it strengthened the power of the true doctrine before the Bible was canonized, which is substantial enough to be safe to say that those who canonized it knew what was correct and what wasn't. They held to the teachings they were taught, by those that were taught, by those that were taught, by those that were taught by the apostles, whom was taught by Jesus. Where did all this change? It didn't change until Pope Leo the Great (fifth century) and Pope Gregory the Great (sixth century...actually A.D. 590). I put trust in God that he would preserve us with the correct truth. Plus if that isn't evident enough, if it doesn't cooperate with the OT, then it isn't neccessarily legit.

[Venomshocker]

I see what you are saying. However there is one catch and it goes with faith: I believe that my Father would not have it that I be misled and would preserve his truth in one manner or another. I believe he did with his word.

Do you believe God would have let all those Islamic people be misled, and believe the wrong thing? ie. the Quran?

Do you believe God would have let all those 1 billion hindus be misled? How aobut the buddhaists?

Are you such an elitest jerk that you believe God ONLY looked out for your belief???

Im sorry but your faith logic just dosent fly when looking at things from a greater perspective.

Not only that, others kept their own Bibles before the Roman Catholic Church rose to power, even before the Bible was canonized.

How can u even ahve a bible before it was cannonized?? That makes no sense whatsoever.

Now, as far as the canonization of the Bible, it was only in the fourth century. It wasn't too far off from the Apostles. Now it can be far enough, but that was constantly battled. People limited access to doctrine to the Bishop for that sole reason of keeping heresy out of the Church. Now, it weaken the power of the congregation, but it strengthened the power of the true doctrine before the Bible was canonized, which is substantial enough to be safe to say that those who canonized it knew what was correct and what wasn't. They held to the teachings they were taught, by those that were taught, by those that were taught, by those that were taught by the apostles, whom was taught by Jesus.

You have no proof of this. And any of those people who were taught by those who were taught, etc. could have decided to twist things to their wants and needs. One only needs to look at some of these peoples lives to see there was manipoulation of information going on. Take a look at Eusebius.

Plus if that isn't evident enough, if it doesn't cooperate with the OT, then it isn't neccessarily legit.

Do all the other gospels I listed contradict the OT? Could someone write a gospel now, and not have it contradict the OT? Is it really that hard?

Edited April 27, 2006 by Venomshocker

[+Sherapy]

For what it's worth, my grandma just died about three hours ago. I came from visiting her, and she died 10 minutes before I got to her place. The person watching over her in her room, said out of the blue, she opened her eyes, turned her head to look across the room at a cross hung on her wall, smiled, a tear came to her eye, and then she died.

I believe Jesus came to get her and take her home. If there is a heaven and anyone deserved to go there it was her. She was the most positive person I had ever met. She suffered from rheumatoid arthritis since she was 20, and in a wheel chair since she was 25. She was 82 when she died. I'm sad, but I know she is free of her pain, with her husband and God in Heaven. I hope to see you all there, instead of in the darkness.

From studies into the near death experiences, I'm pretty sure I know what has happened to her soul. If your interested check this out:

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/articles005.html

Scooby all the best to you and your family