Would you believe?

[Amalgamut]

As I said, I think if god wanted to make an appearance they would do best to effect blatant changes upon the earth and her people that transcends that which faiths ascribe to ecclesiastical partisanism. 

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This will not happen. God doesn't want to "prove" himself to anyone. Sure he would get more people to believe in him, but their love would be artificial. He wants us to love him, like his son loved us.

And god, if your reading, feel free to prove me wrong!

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You and I just may live to see a day like this. But, we probably won't.

Edited May 29, 2005 by Amalgamut

[GoddessWhispers]

( sorry, you and loge outclass me in the graphics department)

No, you just haven't had the opportunity to start a collection. I'd be happy to share!

[Jodie.Lynne]

It doesn't matter what form or what miracles a celestial being would perform.

Given, for the moment that Jesus was who and what he said he was, if he appeared today, the very people who desire his presence would probably be the ones to reject him.

According to the bible, There were many who reject Jesus as the Messiah because he did not match their pre-conceived ideas of what he would be. They wanted a king to lead them to overthrow the romans, and here was a man, claiming the title, but bearing a message they didn't want to hear.

And, from the answers received here by some of the die hard believers, if the Second coming did happen, but NOT according to the pre-conceived notions of the christians, they would reject him as a 'false prophet'. I find this to be so appropriately ironic.

And, the reason for such rejection is that it "Isn't what the bible tells us". Funny how the Hebrews of 2000 years ago rejected the messiah for the same reasons........

"Those who do not learn from the mistakes of history, are doomed to repeat them."

[Amalgamut]

According to the bible, There were many who reject Jesus as the Messiah because he did not match their pre-conceived ideas of what he would be.  They wanted a king to lead them to overthrow the romans, and here was a man, claiming the title, but bearing a message they didn't want to hear.

645791[/snapback]

Exactly.

And, from the answers received here by some of the die hard believers, if the Second coming did happen, but NOT according to the pre-conceived notions of the christians, they would reject him as a 'false prophet'.  I find this to be so appropriately ironic.

645791[/snapback]

Not sure what you mean here.

And, the reason for such rejection is that it "Isn't what the bible tells us".  Funny how the Hebrews of 2000 years ago rejected the messiah for the same reasons........

645791[/snapback]

The Hebrews rejected Jesus because he wasn't what they wanted. They didn't rejected him because he didn't fit the prophecy.

[GoddessWhispers]

This will not happen. God doesn't want to "prove" himself to anyone.

Such an absolute statement, in a discussion of faith.

Actually I disagree. (can you tell )

I think, as children embody the spirit and traits of their parents, so to is all of creation the embodiment of that which created it.

Therefore, if one is a theist, god has already proven it's self, (feel free to apply the pronoun of choice ), and all one need do to see the proof , is gaze in the mirror, look to their loved ones, and/or at the world around us. I think that's why I think it would take that power transcending beliefs, by changing the world around us overtly, as I discussed in the above replies, to show us what has always been staring us in the face. That we are the embodiment of the creator; just look at what we do in our own lives, creating in the day to day. Consequently we have also created a world that is manifestation of the fabled, heaven and hell, though at the moment it would seem hell is gaining an edge.

I see that as metaphor BTW. When I die I do not expect to stand before a saint and defend my living this life. Nor do I expect to burn for failing , by the standards set forth by an all knowing creator and it's judgement, to live it according to their expectations.

I believe I am the first temple, and that I have but to gaze into my own eyes to commune with the power behind creation. And that every day I live I am embraced within the energy of that power, and well loved. Because I appreciate the beauty in all of nature, and while born as an only child, I know I am a member of a global family and therefore have not set upon this journey alone.

You and I just may live to see a day like this. But, we probably won't. (Amalgamut)

Dear Amalgamut, I believe we can see this day, if we commit our unique, individual energies to making it happen in the space we occupy. You know what they say; It's is foolhardy to think to change the world, when the wisdom knows one need but change their perception of the world, to see the difference.

"Remember upon the conduct of each depends the fate of all."

Alexander The Great

Edited May 29, 2005 by GoddessWhispers

[Jodie.Lynne]

Not sure what you mean here.

I knew you wouldn't.

The Hebrews rejected Jesus because he wasn't what they wanted. They didn't rejected him because he didn't fit the prophecy.

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And your point is? I asked you, a few pages back, if God came back, and said that the religions of the world were wrong, you said you wouldn't believe it. The reason you gave was that "if it wasn't what the bible predicted, it was a false prophet". So how are you any different from the disbelieving Hebrews 2000 years ago?

Edited May 29, 2005 by JMPD1

[Amalgamut]

And your point is?  I asked you, a few pages back, if God came back, and said that the religions of the world were wrong, you said you wouldn't believe it.  The reason you gave was that "if it wasn't what the bible predicted, it was a false prophet".  So how are you any different from the disbelieving Hebrews 2000 years ago?

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Because Jesus fits the prophecy of the OT, and the Torah.

Remember...

The Hebrews rejected Jesus because he wasn't what they wanted. They didn't rejected him because he didn't fit the prophecy.

The key word here is "wanted."

They refuse to believe the truth.

They didn't want some feeble, timid prophet as their "messiah." They wanted a super bad ass warrior from God that would erase the nations that opposed the Jews.

Christ will infact give them this, in times of revelation. But they must first believe that this warrior is Christ indeed.

Many Jews will fail to do this, for they will have already worshipped the beast. But don't get me wrong, I'm sure many Christians will as well.

[Jodie.Lynne]

And you want some "super bad ass" god that will wipe away all the evil (read non-believers) people from the face of the earth and sweep all the 'good people' up to paradise.

And I put it to you that if such a being does appear, and does not conform to your ideas, then you will reject him as well, and curse the ones who follow him.

[hyperactive]

@JMPD1:

you forget one thing.....

the view from inside the cave is different than the view outside the cave....

(to borrow a bit)... if one only has seen the shadows cast by items placed in front of a flame, then to them the shadows are the whole truth.

edit: amal, are familiar with homunculus?

Edited May 29, 2005 by hyperactive

[Amalgamut]

And you want some "super bad ass" god that will wipe away all the evil (read non-believers) people from the face of the earth and sweep all the 'good people' up to paradise.

645829[/snapback]

The rapture will occur roughly ten years prior to the second comming of Christ. There will be many things happening prior to Jesus coming to "conquer the nations."

And I put it to you that if such a being does appear, and does not conform to your ideas, then you will reject him as well, and curse the ones who follow him.

645829[/snapback]

Warning Against Antichrists

"Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come...." (1 John 2:18)

"Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist-he denies the Father and the Son." (1 John 2:23)

The Man of Lawlessness (Anti-christ)

"The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved." (1 Thess 2:9-10)

[hyperactive]

i love self confirmation tales.....

yup... i am what i say i am and if anybody says i am not what i say i am they are what i warned you of so ignore them! do not question me, do not listen to the others, for you can trust me when i tell you that only those that challenge me are the liars.......

yup... sounds real convincing... or something

[Jodie.Lynne]

you just do not understand the point I am trying to make.

But that is alright. Continue to await the destroyer of worlds. Have you ever actually given thought to how fecking depressing your belief system is?

In the apocolypse that you are so anxiously awaiting, is EVERY christian going to paradise? I seem to recall a number, was it 144,000? that would be swept up in the rapture. What happens to all the rest of the believers? They suffer with the sinners? Or is is a god lottery? I win, you lose sorry thats the luck of the draw. Or does god decide that "this one is holy enough, that one isn't"?

what an elitist load of malarkey. Enjoy.

Edited May 29, 2005 by JMPD1

[Amalgamut]

i love self confirmation tales.....

yup... i am what i say i am and if anybody says i am not what i say i am they are what i warned you of so ignore them!  do not question me, do not listen to the others, for you can trust me when i tell you that only those that challenge me are the liars.......

yup... sounds real convincing... or something

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Remember, these words were not written yesterday. They were written 2000 years ago. Way before the rise of other religions, such as Islam.

[hyperactive]

i love self confirmation tales.....

yup... i am what i say i am and if anybody says i am not what i say i am they are what i warned you of so ignore them!  do not question me, do not listen to the others, for you can trust me when i tell you that only those that challenge me are the liars.......

yup... sounds real convincing... or something

645856[/snapback]

Remember, these words were not written yesterday. They were written 2000 years ago. Way before the rise of other religions, such as Islam.

645862[/snapback]

yup... and for 2000 years people have been believing in the immediacy of these events... all those poor christians that never got to see the demise of the earth....

i bet they all would have loved to have been nero!!!

edit.... you never answered about homunculus

Edited May 29, 2005 by hyperactive

[Amalgamut]

yup... and for 2000 years people have been believing in the immediacy of these events... all those poor christians that never got to see the demise of the earth....

645866[/snapback]

The bible does not say they will be immediately.

edit.... you never answered about homunculus

645866[/snapback]

who?

[hyperactive]

yup... the NT is one long false prophecy, isn't it!

do NOT forget that the very first generation of christians were the MOST convinced of the immediate end of their world.... it is product of their times...

However, if the homunculus argument is applied rigorously it should be phrased in such a way that the conclusion is always that if a homunculus is required then the theory is wrong. After all, homunculi do not exist.

edit: picture added... i feel just like loge and princesswhispering now

Edited May 29, 2005 by hyperactive

[GoddessWhispers]

Given the evolution of this thread, I dare throw in my .

*This is not to influence the discussion to morph into one of, "My god's older than your god/religion.*

And as an aside; Hyperactive, I thank you for borrowing a bit. "if one only has seen the shadows cast by items placed in front of a flame, then to them the shadows are the whole truth." I appreciate the import of that metaphore, very much.

History Timeline of World Religions and its Founders:

2,085 BC. Judaism-Abraham

1,500 BC. Hinduism- no specific founder

560 BC. Buddhism- Gautama Buddha

550 BC. Taoism - Lao Tzu

599 BC. Jainism, Mahavira

30 AD. Christianity –Jesus Christ

50-100 AD. Gnosticism-

150-250 AD. -Modalism (Monarchianism)–Sabellius, Praxeus, Noetus, Paul of Samosata

325 AD. -After being persecuted for almost 200 years Constantine made the Church becomes a legal religion, compromise begins to enter.

590 AD.-Roman Catholicism- Developed after Constantine; Pope Gregory?

610 AD.- Islam- Mohammed

1400 AD.- Rosicrucians-Christian Rosenkreuz (1694 US) Rosicrucians- Master Kelpius, Johann Andrea

1515 AD.- Protestantism- (Reformers) Martin Luther, Ulrich Zwingli, John Calvin

1650 AD.- Tibetan Buddhism-Dalai Lama

1700 AD.- Freemasony- Albert Mackey, Albert Pike

1760 AD.-Swedenborgism- Emmanuel Swedenborg

1784 AD.- Shakers - Mother Ann Lee

1830 AD.- Mormonism – Joseph Smith

1830 AD.-Cambellites-Alexander & Thomas Cambell, Barton Stone

1838 AD.-Tenrikyo- Miki Maegawa Nakayama

1844 AD.-Christadelphians- John Thomas

1840-45 AD.-Millerites 2nd day Adventists –William Miller then became 7th Day Adventists

1844 AD.-Bahai- Baha'u'llah (Abul Baha)

1845-1870AD.- 7th Day Adventists-E.G. White

1848 AD.-Spiritualism - Kate and Margaret Fox

1870 AD.-Jehovah's Witnesses- Charles Taze Russell

1875 AD.-Theosophical Society- H.P. Blavatsky, Henry Olcott

1879 AD.-Christian Science-Mary Baker Eddy

1889-1924 AD.-Unity School of Christianity- Myrtle Fillmore

1900 AD.-Rosicrucian Fellowship-Max Heindel

1902 AD.- Anthroposophical Society –Rudolf Steiner

1906 AD. -The Pentecostal Assemblies of the World

1914 AD.- Iglesia ni Cristo- Felix Manalo

1914 AD.- Oneness Pentecostalism- Frank Ewart, G.T.Haywood, Glenn Cook

1917 AD.-True Jesus Church. Founders Paul Wei, Lingsheng Chang and Barnabas Chang

1930 AD. -Black Muslims (Nation of Islam) –Wallace D. Fard

1927 AD.- Mind Science- Ernest Holmes

1934 AD.-World Wide Church of God- Herbert W. Armstrong

1935 AD.-Self Realization Fellowship- Paramahansa Yogananda

1954 AD.- Unification Church- Sun Myung Moon

1945 AD. -The Way -Victor P.Wierwille

1948 AD.- Latter Rain –Franklin Hall, George Warnock.

1964 AD.- Eckankar The Ancient Science of Soul Travel (Eck). Founded by Paul Twitchell

1968 AD.- Hare Krishna (US)- Swami Prabhupada

1968 AD.- Children of God- David (Moses) Berg

1945 AD.-United Pentecostal International- Howard Goss, W.T. Witherspoon (can be traced back to 1914)

1944 AD.- Silva Mind Control –Jose Silva

1950 AD.-Urantia Book- Dr. Bill Sadler

1950 AD.-Lafayette Ronald Hubbard published his book Dianetics-SCIENTOLOGY

1954 AD.-Atherius Society (UFO’s)- Dr. George King

1955 AD.- Scientology- L. Ron Hubbard

1958 AD.- Institute of Divine Metaphysical Research- Henry Kinley

1958-1970 AD.- Church Universal and Triumphant –Mark and E.C. Prophet

1958 AD. -Henry Kinley begins (IDMR) the Institute of Divine Metaphysical Research

1959 AD.-Unitariarian Universalist

1960 AD.-Transcendental meditation- Maharishi Mahesh Yogi

1960 AD.-Enkankar- Paul Twitchell

1961 AD.- Unitarian Universalism was officially formed.

1965 AD.-Assembly of Yahweh-Jacob Meyer

1966 AD.- Church of Satan –Anton LaVey

1970 AD.-Findhorn Community –Peter and Eileen Caddy –David Spangler

1970 AD.- Divine light Mission- Guru Maharaj Ji

1973 AD.- CARP was established in the United States. [The Collegiate Association for the Research of Principles] to introduce the teachings of un Myung Moon.

1974 AD.-Assemblies of Yahweh-Sam Suratt

1979 AD.-Church of Christ International - Kip McKean

1980 -1982 AD.- Tara Center-Benjamen Crème

1980 AD.- House of Yahweh (Abilene) Jacob Hawkins

(*Source Link*)

Edited May 29, 2005 by GoddessWhispers

[Amalgamut]

you just do not understand the point I am trying to make.

645859[/snapback]

Yes I do, but I'm trying to tell you the point I am trying to make.

But that is alright.  Continue to await the destroyer of worlds.  Have you ever actually given thought to how fecking depressing your belief system is?

645859[/snapback]

Have you ever given though to how depressing this world is? And how much more depressing it will continue to be in the future? Besides, it's really not depressing because the whole process of Revelation is the redemption of the earth and all living things. There will be no more evil and no more sin.

  In the apocolypse that you are so anxiously awaiting,

645859[/snapback]

I really don't care if it comes or not in my lifetime. I just find it an interesting subject.

is EVERY christian going to paradise?

645859[/snapback]

No sir.

  I seem to recall a number, was it 144,000? that would be swept up in the rapture.

645859[/snapback]

This has nothing to do with the Rapture. These are the Jews that do not take the mark of the beast. 144,000 will not take it and so be saved. There are 12,000 from each tribe. The tribes are..

Judah

Reuben

Gad

Asher

Naphtali

Manasseh

Simeon

Levi

Issachar

Zebulun

Joseph

Benjamin

What happens to all the rest of the believers?

645859[/snapback]

The ones that are not "caught up" will remain on earth to face tribulation. Just like all the others.

  They suffer with the sinners?

645859[/snapback]

They "suffer" with the rest of the world that has not open themselves to Christ. However, ALL will have a chance to go to heaven. God gives them plenty of time to make their choice after the rapture. They can believe the truth, or believe the lie.

Or does god decide that "this one is holy enough, that one isn't"?

645859[/snapback]

If a person is worthy in the eyes of God at the time of the rapture, they will be caught up. If they are not worthy, then they must prove themselves during the times of tribulation.

All of the people who have rejected God will stay on the earth. They will have a first hand account of a spiritual realm, basically. Millions will be saved by the blood of Christ. And millions will worship the beast.

[Jodie.Lynne]

The ones that are not "caught up" will remain on earth to face tribulation. Just like all the others.

All of the people who have rejected God will stay on the earth. They will have a first hand account of a spiritual realm, basically. Millions will be saved by the blood of Christ. And millions will worship the beast.

So even if you are a "good christian" and have jesus as your personal trainer, I mean savior, there is a good chance that you'll be left behind to suffer with the rest of us poor 'unsaved' sinners. That doesn't seem very fair to me. In fact, it seems down right elitist and arbitrary.

So, it behooves you believer types to bad mouth, and degrade other believers to insure their slot on the bus.

And, I thought that christ already shed his blood to save us and redeem us? You know, that whole nailed to a cross thing?

[Amalgamut]

do NOT forget that the very first generation of christians were the MOST convinced of the immediate end of their world.... it is product of their times...

645878[/snapback]

Opinion.

It would make no sense to send your son down, and then have the end of the world a mere few years later.

Jesus said to spread his word. His word would not have gotten out enough had the end came soon after his death. Not enough people would be informed. Many people would be mislead and confused. This will happen enough when antichrist rules the earth.

[hyperactive]

homunculus homunculus homunculus!

opinion? no, historical fact.... something far more credible than your book of tales!

[Amalgamut]

homunculus homunculus homunculus!

645918[/snapback]

Sorry, I have no idea what you are talking about here. (Or what you are trying to imply)

opinion?  no, historical fact.... something far more credible than your book of tales!

645918[/snapback]

Book of tales? How would this not be considered a part of history? They didn't have digital camera's or TV's back then.

The only way to record things was to write it down.

[hyperactive]

study the homunculus....

study history from a less biased source than the bible....

seriously... there is an awful lot about the earliest christians recorded OUTSIDE of scripture.... it will tell you a lot more about the religion than the distorted, corrupted tales that came afterwards.....

The concept of a homunculus (Latin for "little man," sometimes spelled "homonculus") is often used to illustrate the functioning of a system. In the scientific sense of an unknowable prime actor, it can be viewed as an entity or agent.

The term appears to have been first used by the alchemist Paracelsus. He once claimed that he had created a false human being that he referred to as the homunculus. The creature was to have stood no more than 12 inches tall, and does the work usually associated with a golem. However, after a short time, the homunculus would turn on its creator and run away. The recipe consisted of a bag of bones, sperm, skin fragments and hair from any animal you wanted it to be a hybrid of. This was to be laid in the ground surrounded by horse manure for forty days, at which point the embryo would form.

Needless to say, this procedure does not actually produce a viable homunculus, nor do the variants cited by other alchemists. One such variant involved the use of the mandrake. Popular belief held that this plant grew where the semen sometimes ejaculated by hanged men during the last convulsive spasms before death fell to the ground, and its roots vaguley resemble a human form to varying degrees. The root was to be picked before dawn on a Friday morning by a black dog, then washed and "fed" with milk and honey and, in some prescriptions, blood, whereupon it would fully develop into a miniature human which would guard and protect its owner. Yet a third method, cited by Dr. David Christianus at the University of Giessen during the 18th century, was to take an egg laid by a black hen, poke a tiny hole through the shell, replace a bean-sized portion of the white with human sperm, seal the opening with virgin parchment, and bury the egg in dung on the first day of the March lunar cycle. A miniature humanoid would emerge from the egg after thirty days, which would help and protect its creator in return for a steady diet of lavender seeds and earthworms.

The term homunculus was later used in the discussion of conception and birth. In 1694, Nicolaas Hartsoeker discovered "animalcules" in the sperm of humans and other animals. Some claimed that the sperm was in fact a "little man" (homunculus) that was placed inside a woman for growth into a child; these later became known as the spermists. This is not as silly as it sounds today, and neatly explained many of the mysteries of conception (for instance, why it takes two). However it was later pointed out that if the sperm was a homunculus, identical in all but size to an adult, then the homunculus must have sperm of its own. This led to a reductio ad absurdum, with a chain of homunculi "all the way down".

Today the term is used in a number of ways to describe systems that are thought of as being run by a "little man" inside. For instance, the homunculus continues to be considered as one of the major theories on the origin of consciousness, that there is a part (or process) in the brain whose purpose is to be "you". The homunculus is often invoked in cybernetics as well, for similar reasons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homunculus

basically, i am saying your arguments amount to nothing more than homunculus arguments!

Edited May 29, 2005 by hyperactive

[Amalgamut]

So even if you are a "good christian" and have jesus as your personal trainer, I mean savior, there is a good chance that you'll be left behind to suffer with the rest of us poor 'unsaved' sinners.

645897[/snapback]

There will be Christians that stay, however most will be caught up. The ones that remain are the ones that werent who they said they were. They will repent.

  That doesn't seem very fair to me.  In fact, it seems down right elitist and arbitrary.

645897[/snapback]

Well, the world isnt fair. Thats just too bad if you don't think its fair.

So, it behooves you believer types to bad mouth, and degrade other believers to insure their slot on the bus.

645897[/snapback]

Not sure what you mean here.

And, I thought that christ already shed his blood to save us and redeem us?  You know, that whole nailed to a cross thing?

645897[/snapback]

Yes! You are right. However, there is one condition.

You must believe in Christ.

[whoa182]

The lord of the rings trilogy is just as believable as the bible.

Don't try to back up your beliefs by what the bible says. It can't work like that.

Edited May 29, 2005 by whoa182