The Last Supper *Painting*

[Ausaria]

It makes me wonder if back when the painting was done, the world had a completely different interpretation of the Bible.

Either that, or DaVinci painted it without doing his homework.

[GIDEON MAGE]

you need to keep in mind, that, when the n.t. was written at the council of constantinople, the bishops knew nothing of jewish customs. they wouldn't have known matzoh from schmatzoh. mich was just basing his work on the n.t., which says "bread". another example is the "cross" which simply wasn't in use until 4 centuries after jsus was supposedly crucified. the examples of n.t. inaccuracies about jewish customs is endless.

[Something Like Laughter]

It makes me wonder if back when the painting was done, the world had a completely different interpretation of the Bible.

Either that, or DaVinci painted it without doing his homework. 

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Da Vinci painted to look like what a bunch of people eating during his time. call it creative license.

you need to keep in mind, that, when the n.t. was written at the council of constantinople, the bishops knew nothing of jewish customs.  they wouldn't have known matzoh from schmatzoh.  mich was just basing his work on the n.t., which says "bread".  another example is the "cross" which simply wasn't in use until 4 centuries after jsus was supposedly crucified.  the examples of n.t. inaccuracies about jewish customs is endless.

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GM, do we need to go over that council of constantinople thing again? thats just plain stupid.

[Ashley-Star*Child]

Yeah, that's one`thing tht gets me with that painting and Orthodox Christian religions - the BREAD. Jesus was doing the Passovr Seadr on this 'Last Supper' and the Passover Sedar has UNLEAVENED BREAD (no yeast, like Catholic Eucharist....but that's a bit exaggerated, it's not THAT thin), and yet they use, and paint leavened bread....

As for the year Jesus was crucified, the years could be wrong.

[GIDEON MAGE]

GM, do we need to go over that council of constantinople thing again? thats just plain stupid.

where are the moderators when this guy is calling me stupid?

no-what is stupid is believing in a series of books written by a group of bishops, trying to describe jewish customs they knew nothing about.what is stupid is painting jsus on a cross, which wasn't used at the time he supposedly lived.furthermore, why are there no records outside of the n.t. that this man even lived?why do no roman or other authorities at the time record an earthquake, after which dead people walked about, bothering the living? read matthew 27: 51-54 for this vampire tale. why was there no jewish record of a custom of releasing a prisoner on passover? why did the writers of the gospels not know about matzoh or any other passover customs? why were there only thirteen witnesses to the resurrection?count it if you don't believe me. why don't any jewish records state that the temple veil was rent? such a bizaare event must have been written down somewhere. why was your savior weak on the "cross" and beg for the "cup" to be taken away? why didn't he say the "shema" which every jew says when he dies?why are there two different genealogies for jsus? what was the name of joseph's father?jacob?heli?shall we believe your precious matthew?or luke?

why did mary have to be purified after giving birth to "god"? why did jsus's parents have to go to the temple, following the law, after he was born? why did jsus fail to return while "this generation" was still alive?

your precious n.t. was written by the council, not by the disciples, and you know it!

[leadbelly]

I can not completely open this web page, so I hope this works.

Well, this has turned into a debate, fired by a comment.

Sorry, Gideon, you know more than me on these matters.

I wonder what your reason for commenting on this painting is?

You take great offence. Perhaps you are justified, I don't know.

But are there no Roman records of early crucifictions?

No historical know personages, famous enough to quote?

That is news to me!

About the painting, could I offer something.

First, I am out on a limb, not knowing the Bible. Shame.

This group, Jesus and his apostles, went to a Passover supper, which was in the spring. Those meals include pieces of bread, in reverence to the lean times of Jews in the desert. And it includes several drinks of wine, each symbolic, perhaps, but the last represents the completion of the events of Jewish history, into a relation with God. Something like that.

The bread in the painting is stylized. Each is round, but what magic of perspective was available to Leonardo, otherwise they would disolve into the table. It is an artistic choice that nonetheless conveys, for me the bread is perhaps broken. They serve their purpose, being small and discreet. Besides, maybe there was no room on the wall for more painting.

Where are the wine gobblets? I do not know, except to say that Leonardo was not painting a tryptich, or multi-panel painting. He shows no wine, perhaps because of the fact that Jesus drank not of his fourth cup, but said he would return to drink it, from Heaven. And that is important in the whole story of Jesus. This conveys that aspect of this event, quite symbolically, and I am satisfied with my interpretation.

As regards John The Baptist, and John The Evangelist, I have corrected my oversight, and say this. John the Baptist was as I said, a man in animal skins an cloth, baptising his followers in the river and proclaiming the coming of God into men's lives.

Here is a version of him, as in the painting by Raphael, above.

John The Baptist

And what of Leonardo's technique, style, choice? Here is a fit, godly perfect man.

Image 2

And here is another version, by Leonardo. Yes, he points to his heart,

And yes, he is beautiful, and yes he is like a spiritual perfection.

The opposite of the life he had to lead. And, yes, Leonardo was human.

Image 3

[GIDEON MAGE]

Lets review shall we. You apparantly dont remeber this from last time. Ill try to keep this short and stick to the important dates so you can comprehend it all.

381 AD: Council of Constantinople

350 AD: About the time both Codex Sinaiticus (contains the entire NT) and Codex Vaticanus (contains most of the NT) date to.

EDIT: i should have made this a poll. Oh well

a quote from something like laughter...

ok-i will correct myself.

when the new testament was written, around 350 c.e., they apparently didn't know what matzoh was, or, for that matter, any other jewish customs.

da vinci's loaves of bread are just based on the extremely fallacious n.t.

antd the xifixians at the time of the jsus story were done on straight poles, with the hands nailed together over one's head.the cross was a later invention, around the time of the writing of the n.t., around 350.

[Walken]

In future if you come under personal attack you can request help from a moderator by clicking the report button below your post.

As such the mod team is very busy and has a lot of work to get through and not all that much time. Reporting the post will send a link and your comment directly to them, helping them in the long run

[Ashley-Star*Child]

Ahh the wine. Part of the Passover Sedar is leaving a goblet of wine out for Elijah.

Elijah, like Enoch, did not die, both turned into angels Enoch/Metatron, Elijah/Sandalphon. Before the Messiah the prophecy says there will be a 'forerunning angel'. When asked where Elijah was, Jesus said he had already returned as John the Baptist. John the Baptist was Elijah/Sandalphon reincarnated. John would die. Jesus also said Enoch (Metatron and Sandalphon became twin angels') would 'also die in due course'. They are BOTH prophecized about as returning in Revelation and the 'Two Witnesses' and both die.

[GIDEON MAGE]

SO WHY DOES THE N.T. SAY BREAD?

were the authors jews or not?

[Something Like Laughter]

whats wrong with the NT saying bread?

[EmpressV]

If you look at (Mary's) face it is truely passive and content. Could this be that she is pregnant? Maybe DaVinci and his contempories really knew something and wanted everyone to know. We all know that for fear of pursecution they had to be slick in how they relayed info. From what I understand, Peter is the one sitting next to Mary and has his hand in a slashing motion. I suppose he would be pretty upset if his position in the church were threatened by a woman no less. If you look at all of them except Jesus and Mary, some appear to be in an uproar and some look confused. Gee, could this be that there was an anouncement made? Both Jesus and Mary look perfectly content and at peace. Also if the figures in the painting all had beards and were truly male then we wouldn"t be questioning it now would we.

[Amalgamut]

The third dude on Jesus' left seems pretty girly to me as well. Maybe thats suppose to be mary mag....

[ajaytr]

i just wanna know whos holding the dagger!

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the man wearing blue, with a grey beard, fourth from the left.

take a look: http://www.milano.arounder.com/PROJECTS/SA.../home_java.html

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Great link (http://www.milano.arounder.com/PROJECTS/SA.../home_java.html) ... thanks a million pal

[saladins follower]

im gona explain this as best as i remember, you should read the da vinci code tells all about this painting and other clues about the code.

the person whos next to jesus is considered john the baptists my christians

but it is really mary magdalin,you can notice she looks pregnant. why is the guy whispering to her ear holding a butter knife or a knife ? assasination attemp

and if you notice mary and jesus are making a V i cant remember every thin

i think at that time that was considered a letter of lofe or passion for another( im not exactly sure read the book explains a lot better ) and later on when jesus was crucified mary was on the ground weeping ? is it because he wud never see her daughter (read the book youll know wut i mean )

[saladins follower]

not tryin to go to hell or any thing but doesnt jesus look soft and ga in this picture

this cannot be

[Ashley-Star*Child]

It's an aftermath painting, treat it as such.

[Something Like Laughter]

im gona explain this as best as i remember, you should read the da vinci code tells all about this painting and other clues about the code.

you might consider upgrading your sources to something in the nonfiction section.

the person whos next to jesus is considered john the baptists my christians

and learn the difference between the various people named John in the NT. to quote myself:

John the Baptist had his head served on a silver platter (i think that is how the story goes) on the orders of one of Herod the Great's sons. the disciple John is completely different.

it is John. not only considered so by Christians, but most art historians.

but it is really mary magdalin,you can notice she looks pregnant.

um, ok.

why is the guy whispering to her ear holding a butter knife or a knife ? assasination attemp

or perhaps he was just eating.

and later on when jesus was crucified mary was on the ground weeping ? is it because he wud never see her daughter (read the book youll know wut i mean )

well if you lived in the ANE and the guy you were expecting to be the messiah was being executed, you might weep too.

[Lordgalyan]

im gona explain this as best as i remember, you should read the da vinci code tells all about this painting and other clues about the code.

you might consider upgrading your sources to something in the nonfiction section.

Well the source is a novel, but it has a lot of information true out the story that is very much real.

All christians of any faith despise this (story) so much because it turns everything that they have been told by their christian leaders into lies or mistruths.

Forbid that there might actually be a truth to the fact that Man and Woman would run the church.

the person whos next to jesus is considered john the baptists my christians

and learn the difference between the various people named John in the NT. to quote myself:

John the Baptist had his head served on a silver platter (i think that is how the story goes) on the orders of one of Herod the Great's sons. the disciple John is completely different.

it is John. not only considered so by Christians, but most art historians.

but it is really mary magdalin,you can notice she looks pregnant.

um, ok.

That is clearly a woman and any one that does not have Bible blinders on can see it.

why is the guy whispering to her ear holding a butter knife or a knife ? assasination attemp

or perhaps he was just eating.

Or perhaps he was p***ed off and discovered he was not next in line to control the people it might be a female.

and later on when jesus was crucified mary was on the ground weeping ? is it because he wud never see her daughter (read the book youll know wut i mean )

well if you lived in the ANE and the guy you were expecting to be the messiah was being executed, you might weep too.

Why aren't the others from the Messiahs coven there crying to. Was the one that just happen to be the closest to him like his love, his life, his wife, the only one truly upset.

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[EmpressV]

His disciples ran off in fear. But his mother and his wife would obviously be by his side. And so it was, from what I understand. In the painting, it is a woman next to JC and the guy holding the knife is Peter in a rage. JC & Mary look peaceful and content. They had to know something wonderful in order to look that happy when they all knew JC was about to be executed. Isn't it funny how all of the churchs secrets are being openly exposed now. Something that couldn't be done in DiVincis day except through paintings.

[bacca]

The funny thing about this is that ya'll are talking about is a picture of the last supper which was painted by a man who didn't like the church accurate in the fact that it was mary sitting beside him...But how do you have any more information then he did to say if Mary was his wife, or a disciple in the first place. The Last supper by Divinci does have a woman sitting next to JC....but who cares? We will never know right? It's all about what you as the individual believes. If Davinci believed something that doesn't automatically make it true or false, I suppose the good thing would be that it makes people talk, and hopefully learn and that's always good

[Something Like Laughter]

Well the source is a novel, but it has a lot of information true out the story that is very much real.

do i really need to go into all the stuff the book gets wrong?

That is clearly a woman and any one that does not have Bible blinders on can see it.

right. next you will be saying that i need to "open my mind."

Why aren't the others from the Messiahs coven there crying to. Was the one that just happen to be the closest to him like his love, his life, his wife, the only one truly upset.

all but John fled. in addition, Mary, Jesus' mother, her sister, and Mary the wife of Clopas were there.

[+Link of Hyrule]

In my 'Conventions of European THeatre' class at uni last semester, I learnt a valuable lesson from the lecturer (great guy - absolutely tops)

He said whenever looking at any piece of creative literature, whether it be a play, a painting, a sculpture etc., all we can do is interpret as best we can (especially when the artist who created it made no mention of what he/she intended). It is the height of arrogance to assume that because you believe it to have one meaning that that is indeed the meaning intended by the artist.

As interesting as this whole discussion is, it is arrogant of those who claim that it must mean DaVinci had an agenda which he had to get across through his paintings.

I'm not saying it doesn't mean that either. I don't know enough to make any kind of educated statement on the subject. But I do know that there can be a hundred.... no, a thousand different interpretations to any artwork.

Something to consider......

[Ciraxis]

you can zoom in on the painting here.

http://www.milano.arounder.com/da_vinci_la...fullscreen.html

i must say though, this discussion could go on forever. maybe we should get ut the ouiji board and summon divinci to tell us what is really in the painting.

please note my sarcasim

[Sauven2236]

Everyone should read HOLY BLOOD, HOLY GRAIL. A very interesting scholarly work. There is much much more to the story then Devinci. Gnostics have openly talked about these things for centuries.