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saucy

Would you believe...

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professorwizard
There is no scriptural basis for The Rapture.  One has to jump through hoops to get there.  The fact is thus:  Jesus was murdered...everyone of His Apostles were murdered..(with the exception of Judas who hung himself).  Christians throughout history have been persecuted and murdered.

But today's modern Christians don't want to be persecuted and murdered for their beliefs...

....when the going gets tough...the Christians get to leave........

....I don't think so.....

671019[/snapback]

Clarification:

"The Rapture", as it has come to be known, is a corruption of another prophecy.

144,000 ( not 'a billion' ) are to be 'taken up', 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Judea ( not Christians ). They get to spend 70 years being 'reborn' into new bodies and retrained, before being returned to Earth to act as governors over the surviving post-Apocalyptic generation of mankind. The 144,000, in order to qualify for this job, must be pious, virginal, "chosen", and male. ( The latter qualification reeks of the antiquated religious prejudices against women participating in religious ceremony, because of Eve's sin in the Garden. )

The whole process sounds like an alien scheme, involving only 'tagged' male descendants of the original bloodline.

So, that's my 2 cents. I have to go back to work now. Later! original.gif

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Amalgamut
..(with the exception of Judas who hung himself)
hmm.gif Hmm....

Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.

671485[/snapback]

This is what happend to Judas after he had been hanging.

(The body rotted and decayed)

I thought you already knew this....

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Amalgamut
There is no scriptural basis for The Rapture.  One has to jump through hoops to get there.  The fact is thus:  Jesus was murdered...everyone of His Apostles were murdered..(with the exception of Judas who hung himself).   Christians throughout history have been persecuted and murdered.

But today's modern Christians don't want to be persecuted and murdered for their beliefs...

....when the going gets tough...the Christians get to leave........

....I don't think so.....

671019[/snapback]

Clarification:

"The Rapture", as it has come to be known, is a corruption of another prophecy.

144,000 ( not 'a billion' ) are to be 'taken up', 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Judea ( not Christians ). They get to spend 70 years being 'reborn' into new bodies and retrained, before being returned to Earth to act as governors over the surviving post-Apocalyptic generation of mankind. The 144,000, in order to qualify for this job, must be pious, virginal, "chosen", and male. ( The latter qualification reeks of the antiquated religious prejudices against women participating in religious ceremony, because of Eve's sin in the Garden. )

The whole process sounds like an alien scheme, involving only 'tagged' male descendants of the original bloodline.

672220[/snapback]

No. The "144,000" is only talking about the Jews that are saved when Christ returns (Many years after the rapture.)

This will be the number of Jews (that are saved) that will be around when Christ fights in armageddon.

Edited by Amalgamut

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Amalgamut
after all the incorrect predictions and claims, i would not believe the christian rapture occured just because millions of people disappeared.

669387[/snapback]

Ok, so what else would you suggest happend if you woke up some morning and millions of people were gone?

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Amalgamut
First I think that the number of christians in the world are dwindling so there wouldn't be as many missing as you'd think.

669580[/snapback]

Sure, but right after the rapture, a man takes power of all the nations (and starts killing people of the church that were not caught up). This man is the antichrist.

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Amalgamut
Really, it hasn't been all that long, relatively.  The concept of the Rapture didn't get started till, what, around 1830 by the British evangelical guy, John Nelson Darby. 

669838[/snapback]

This doesnt mean he wrote down the words in Revelation.

The words have been the same since John wrote them, (90 A.D).

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hyperactive
after all the incorrect predictions and claims, i would not believe the christian rapture occured just because millions of people disappeared.

669387[/snapback]

Ok, so what else would you suggest happend if you woke up some morning and millions of people were gone?

672582[/snapback]

mr amalgamut is pulling a practical joke!!

seriously, i would think lots of people are gone (if they are gone from around my area so i can verify personally). i would then have to evaluate the situation.

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Amalgamut

mr amalgamut is pulling a practical joke!!

seriously, i would think lots of people are gone (if they are gone from around my area so i can verify personally).  i would then have to evaluate the situation.

672605[/snapback]

Ok, lets say this happend (millions of people were missing) and a man who was a great leader of a great nation died, but somehow he resurrected himself. And you saw this happen with your own eyes (on TV via live or a reply of the event.)

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Paranoid Android
Clarification:

"The Rapture", as it has come to be known, is a corruption of another prophecy.

144,000 ( not 'a billion' ) are to be 'taken up', 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Judea ( not Christians ). They get to spend 70 years being 'reborn' into new bodies and retrained, before being returned to Earth to act as governors over the surviving post-Apocalyptic generation of mankind. The 144,000, in order to qualify for this job, must be pious, virginal, "chosen", and male. ( The latter qualification reeks of the antiquated religious prejudices against women participating in religious ceremony, because of Eve's sin in the Garden. )

The whole process sounds like an alien scheme, involving only 'tagged' male descendants of the original bloodline.

So, that's my 2 cents. I have to go back to work now. Later!  original.gif

672220[/snapback]

You see, this is why I always say Revelations should be left solely to intellectual discussion. Numbers in the Bible, specifically in Revelations (and Daniel) are highly symbollic. the number 4, for example, is related to the Earth (4 winds, 4 corners, 4 compass points, 4 horsemen?). 7 is the number of completion. 12 is used in reference to God's people (12 tribes of Israel). Even keeping aside the possible symbolism of the number 12 in 12000, that is still a large number for one tribe in those days. Thus 12x12 and its logical derivative 12x12000 = 144000. Being such a large number, it can be taken to mean the entirety of GOd's people, not literally 144000 individuals.

I'm not claiming that this IS the answer, because there are other interpretations. But it is a matter for discussion only. I find this explanation more likely and for this reason, among others, doubt the validity of the Rapture.

Edited by BFG

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hyperactive

mr amalgamut is pulling a practical joke!!

seriously, i would think lots of people are gone (if they are gone from around my area so i can verify personally).  i would then have to evaluate the situation.

672605[/snapback]

Ok, lets say this happend (millions of people were missing) and a man who was a great leader of a great nation died, but somehow he resurrected himself. And you saw this happen with your own eyes (on TV via live or a reply of the event.)

672610[/snapback]

i will have to wait and see since i have no similar experience to base a prediction on.

happy.gif

until then i will take the christian attitude of "don't worry, be happy". ph34r.gif

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aquatus1
Really, it hasn't been all that long, relatively.  The concept of the Rapture didn't get started till, what, around 1830 by the British evangelical guy, John Nelson Darby. 

669838[/snapback]

This doesnt mean he wrote down the words in Revelation.

The words have been the same since John wrote them, (90 A.D).

672586[/snapback]

Heck, no. Darby had to extrapolate the heck out of it to get the Rapture. The actual words that directly supported it didn't appear in the Bible till 1909. The Rapture is based on 1Thes4:11, where it talks about meeting God in the air.

Edited by aquatus1

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Consummate Deist

But Jesus said that he would return while some of those living then were still around! That was 2000 years ago, I see no antique disciples around and can easily conclude that Christianity is flawed! I also find it strange how Christians can totally ignore what their man-god said and take the word of mere humans over his! - CD thumbsup.gif

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Amalgamut
But Jesus said that he would return while some of those living then were still around!

672872[/snapback]

No, he didn't.

I also find it strange how Christians can totally ignore what their man-god said and take the word of mere humans over his! - CD  thumbsup.gif

672872[/snapback]

Sorry, not sure what you mean here.

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aquatus1
But Jesus said that he would return while some of those living then were still around!  That was 2000 years ago, I see no antique disciples around and can easily conclude that Christianity is flawed!

672872[/snapback]

Hmm...if I recall correctly, Jesus claimed that the world would end within his generation, not that he would return from the dead.

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Ashley-Star*Child

This 'rapture' isn't exactly going to occur the way many Christians believe it will. Somehow, somewhere along the line this idea that they all float into the sky came into being.

When it does happen, you'll know about it. Everyone will know about it. Like a comet hitting the Earth know about it. No one's getting whisked up to the sky body and soul.

Anyway, stop worrying about it. When it happens it'll be quick. For anyone whose still alive, their lives will be hell. Like end of civillization due to extreme poverty and starvation hell. Climatic changes beyond control hell. All fun and games.

What was the Mayan date for the end of civillization again? Ahh, 2012, just around the corner.

Edited by Ashley-Star*Child

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Paranoid Android
But Jesus said that he would return while some of those living then were still around!  That was 2000 years ago, I see no antique disciples around and can easily conclude that Christianity is flawed!

672872[/snapback]

Hmm...if I recall correctly, Jesus claimed that the world would end within his generation, not that he would return from the dead.

672992[/snapback]

Matthew 16:28 - (Jesus speaking) "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom"

Nothing about the world ending. And Jesus did return. He walked the Earth for approximately 40 days after his death and resurrection.

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Amalgamut

^^Yes, in the next chapter he shows them in "The Transfiguration."

This is my view on the matter. Jesus told them in Matt 16:28, and showed them in Matt 17:1-13 what was to come.

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aquatus1
Matthew 16:28 - (Jesus speaking) "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom"

Nothing about the world ending.  And Jesus did return.  He walked the Earth for approximately 40 days after his death and resurrection.

673163[/snapback]

The world ending part is in the line right before it, Mat 16:27 "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.". He's talking about the end of time. And the forty days depends on which account in the bible you decide to believe.

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Consummate Deist
Mat 16:27 "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.". He's talking about the end of time.

And as far as I know, Jesus only said he would return once, not twice....now if you can show me otherwise....... Of course there is the fact that he didn't come back when he said he would and Christians have be trying to explain that away for nearly two thousand year - CD thumbsup.gif

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Shai_Hulud

Only if it involves something sexual.

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aquatus1

*Insert "Second Coming" jokes here*

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Paranoid Android
And as far as I know, Jesus only said he would return once, not twice....now if you can show me otherwise.......  Of course there is the fact that he didn't come back when he said he would and Christians have be trying to explain that away for nearly two thousand year - CD  thumbsup.gif

675361[/snapback]

Matthew 16:27-28 - For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

Immediately after this, Matthew chapter 17 (the transfiguration) - "His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus" (verse 2,3).

One could argue that this is the glory spoken of in 16:27.

Matthew 28:17-18 - (Jesus has been crucified and is now risen) "When they saw him (Jesus), they worshipped him"

And obviously some did see him.

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aquatus1
One could argue that this is the glory spoken of in 16:27.

One could, but not very convincely.

Mat 16:15-31

Let no one on the roof of his house go down or enter the house to take anything out. 16Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 17How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 18Pray that this will not take place in winter, 19because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again. 20If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them. 21At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ[c]!' or, 'Look, there he is!' do not believe it. 22For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect—if that were possible. 23So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time.

    24"But in those days, following that distress,

  " 'the sun will be darkened,

      and the moon will not give its light;

    25the stars will fall from the sky,

      and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'[d]

    26"At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

    28"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 29Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that it is near, right at the door. 30I tell you the truth, this generation[e] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 31Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Serously now, this isn't a build-up to a quick little promo spot. We're talking about winters, about famine, about the sky darkening, the moon growing dark, the stars falling from the sky; we are talking about the end of the world here. Jesus isn't doing this alone; he's got angels with him and they are here to work.

And obviously some did see him.

Sure, they saw him, but depending on what you read, they saw him for a daw, aweek, for forty days, and they saw him in Jerusalem, at Galilee, or at Mt. Olivet.

In other words, there is no consistent story regarding the ressurection of Jesus Christ. All accounts differ in a few major ways (some minor ones too, but we won't get nit-picky).

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Something Like Laughter
Mat 16:27 "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.". He's talking about the end of time.

And as far as I know, Jesus only said he would return once, not twice....now if you can show me otherwise....... Of course there is the fact that he didn't come back when he said he would and Christians have be trying to explain that away for nearly two thousand year - CD thumbsup.gif

675361[/snapback]

the text does not say how many times Jesus will return. it could be once, or twice or 37 times.

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Paranoid Android
One could argue that this is the glory spoken of in 16:27.

One could, but not very convincely.

I disagree, it's convincing enough.

Mat 16:15-31
Let no one on the roof of his house go down or enter the house to take anything out. 16Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 17How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 18Pray that this will not take place in winter, 19because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again. 20If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them. 21At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ[c]!' or, 'Look, there he is!' do not believe it. 22For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect—if that were possible. 23So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time.

    24"But in those days, following that distress,

   " 'the sun will be darkened,

      and the moon will not give its light;

    25the stars will fall from the sky,

      and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'[d]

    26"At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

    28"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 29Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that it is near, right at the door. 30I tell you the truth, this generation[e] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 31Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Serously now, this isn't a build-up to a quick little promo spot. We're talking about winters, about famine, about the sky darkening, the moon growing dark, the stars falling from the sky; we are talking about the end of the world here. Jesus isn't doing this alone; he's got angels with him and they are here to work.

Are you sure your Bible quote is accurate. THis comes from Matthew 24:17-35, not Matthew 16:15-31. That aside, many of those signs were fulfilled (obvious one being the eclipse during Jesus crucifixion). But more importantly, reading further on.

Matthew 24:36-44

"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him

No one knows when these things will take place. It will be when no one expects it.

And obviously some did see him.

Sure, they saw him, but depending on what you read, they saw him for a daw, aweek, for forty days, and they saw him in Jerusalem, at Galilee, or at Mt. Olivet.

In other words, there is no consistent story regarding the ressurection of Jesus Christ. All accounts differ in a few major ways (some minor ones too, but we won't get nit-picky).

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. The people whom he appears to do not jump around. Jesus appears in different places, but not the people who see him. What's confusing about that?

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