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Gays march through Europe demanding right to marry


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Okay folks, I've got to leave for work in about five minutes, so I'll have to answer anything that comes after this when I get back...however, before I go, I'll deal with all of this...

Is it possible to change the manner in which your brain operates?

That's a fairly broad question. In general, however, the answer is no...certainly, it isn't possible to change anything so intricate as that. If there is (which I doubt), then we do not currently understand enough about the brain to do so.

Although severe damage to the brain has been known to alter a person's bahavious or personality, as a matter of course I wouldn't really advice we go around bashing homosexuals on the head with large hammers in a misguided effort to "cure" them.

It has nothing to do with homosexuals.We can use the left/right-handed issue if you're more comfortable with that.

Using an analogy would not change the fact that this is a conversation about homosexuality, and your insistance that they should somehow be able to "convert". So, I ask again, what on earth is your problem with homosexuals? huh.gif

as every gay in the world has not been tested

And what on earth do you propose that we should be "testing" for? huh.gif As I have explained to you, homosexuality has nothing to do with a person's genetic code. It's determined in the womb, during fetal development. Again, science has known this for some decades now.

so back to your point ,you say everyone in the world,are you sure

Yes, yes I am. In the same way science knows why some people have more body hair than others, in the same way it knows why some people are naturally inclined to be taller or shorter than the norm, it also knows why some people are gay, and some people are straight. Your own ignorance of such matters does not change this.

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Using an analogy would not change the fact that this is a conversation about homosexuality, and your insistance that they should somehow be able to "convert". So, I ask again, what on earth is your problem with homosexuals?

They SHOULD be able to convert?My INSISTENCE?

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Okay folks, I've got to leave for work in about five minutes, so I'll have to answer anything that comes after this when I get back...however, before I go, I'll deal with all of this...

Is it possible to change the manner in which your brain operates?

That's a fairly broad question. In general, however, the answer is no...certainly, it isn't possible to change anything so intricate as that. If there is (which I doubt), then we do not currently understand enough about the brain to do so.

Although severe damage to the brain has been known to alter a person's bahavious or personality, as a matter of course I wouldn't really advice we go around bashing homosexuals on the head with large hammers in a misguided effort to "cure" them.

It has nothing to do with homosexuals.We can use the left/right-handed issue if you're more comfortable with that.

Using an analogy would not change the fact that this is a conversation about homosexuality, and your insistance that they should somehow be able to "convert". So, I ask again, what on earth is your problem with homosexuals? huh.gif

as every gay in the world has not been tested

And what on earth do you propose that we should be "testing" for? huh.gif As I have explained to you, homosexuality has nothing to do with a person's genetic code. It's determined in the womb, during fetal development. Again, science has known this for some decades now.

so back to your point ,you say everyone in the world,are you sure

Yes, yes I am. In the same way science knows why some people have more body hair than others, in the same way it knows why some people are naturally inclined to be taller or shorter than the norm, it also knows why some people are gay, and some people are straight. Your own ignorance of such matters does not change this.

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Nice to know you still call people ignorent if they dont agree with you Ser,nothing has changed there even though i thought you would have.

Science has a terrible habit of getting things wrong and changing them when it siuits,when they do i have noticed the scientists never say sorry or apolagise ,they just rewrite and carry on. so carry on Ser with your views on what people tell you that are never wrong,sometimes it is a good idea to think for ones self and leave the books in the box

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Kratos, would you then propose that all children who are gay should then be taken away from their birth parents, and placed in the care of homosexual guardians, because you feel that it is "unfair" for those homosexual children to be "forced" into a "straight culture"?

I knew this would pop up some time or another. However much I respect homosexuals, no. Because they are the BIRTH parents. You can't assume the kid is gay. Yes, it does seem fair to assume a kid is straight either, I see but what is more likely to happen? But to actually give a child to be raised by a gay couple would be forcing them. Sounds completely unfair UNLESS you are looking out for the well being of the child.

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Spanish MPs approve gay marriages

Spain's lower house of parliament has voted in favour of allowing gay couples to marry and adopt children.

The controversial decision overrules last week's rejection of the bill by the upper house, the Senate.

The bill will become law in a month's time, making Spain Europe's third nation after the Netherlands and Belgium to allow same sex marriages.

Polls suggest most Spaniards back the move, although two weeks ago thousands joined a Madrid rally against the bill.

Need for unity

A Roman Catholic group had presented MPs with a 600,000-signature petition opposing the legislation and were lobbying hard for a referendum on the issue.

They are urging conservative lawmakers to take legal action to have gay marriages declared unconstitutional.

Some of Spain's local mayors have said they will not officiate at gay marriages.

The Roman Catholic Church wields great influence in Spain, but the BBC's Katya Adler in Madrid says that since the Madrid bomb attacks in March 2004, Spaniards want unity among their people more than anything.

The vote was carried with 187 votes in favour, 147 against and four abstentions.

Couples lining up

The new legislation is one of a series of social reforms, including faster divorce proceedings, being introduced by Spain's socialist government, led by Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero.

Addressing MPs before the vote Mr Zapatero made an appeal for the law to be passed:

"We were not the first, but I am sure we will not be the last. After us will come many other countries, driven, ladies and gentlemen, by two unstoppable forces: freedom and equality," he said.

"We are not legislating, ladies and gentlemen, for remote unknown people. We are expanding opportunities for the happiness of our neighbours, our work colleagues, our friends, our relatives."

There were cheers outside parliament following the vote.

The new law puts same-sex and heterosexual marriages on the same legal footing, including the right to adopt children.

About 5,000 gay couples in Spain have already announced they are queuing up to say "I do", our correspondent says.

Story from BBC NEWS:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/worl...ope/4636133.stm

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Spanish MPs approve gay marriages

Spain's lower house of parliament has voted in favour of allowing gay couples to marry and adopt children.

The controversial decision overrules last week's rejection of the bill by the upper house, the Senate.

The bill will become law in a month's time, making Spain Europe's third nation after the Netherlands and Belgium to allow same sex marriages.

Polls suggest most Spaniards back the move, although two weeks ago thousands joined a Madrid rally against the bill.

Need for unity

A Roman Catholic group had presented MPs with a 600,000-signature petition opposing the legislation and were lobbying hard for a referendum on the issue.

They are urging conservative lawmakers to take legal action to have gay marriages declared unconstitutional.

Some of Spain's local mayors have said they will not officiate at gay marriages.

The Roman Catholic Church wields great influence in Spain, but the BBC's Katya Adler in Madrid says that since the Madrid bomb attacks in March 2004, Spaniards want unity among their people more than anything.

The vote was carried with 187 votes in favour, 147 against and four abstentions.

Couples lining up

The new legislation is one of a series of social reforms, including faster divorce proceedings, being introduced by Spain's socialist government, led by Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero.

Addressing MPs before the vote Mr Zapatero made an appeal for the law to be passed:

"We were not the first, but I am sure we will not be the last. After us will come many other countries, driven, ladies and gentlemen, by two unstoppable forces: freedom and equality," he said.

"We are not legislating, ladies and gentlemen, for remote unknown people. We are expanding opportunities for the happiness of our neighbours, our work colleagues, our friends, our relatives."

There were cheers outside parliament following the vote.

The new law puts same-sex and heterosexual marriages on the same legal footing, including the right to adopt children.

About 5,000 gay couples in Spain have already announced they are queuing up to say "I do", our correspondent says.

Story from BBC NEWS:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/worl...ope/4636133.stm

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Good for them thumbsup.gif they know can grab that big bull by the horn

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Nice to know you still call people ignorent if they dont agree with you Ser,nothing has changed there even though i thought you would have.

I didn't call you ignorant. I said you were ignorant of what science has discovered about the causes of homosexuality. That's not an insult, that's a fact tongue.gif I am ignorant of the rules of cricket - I am not offended when someone says so.

Science has a terrible habit of getting things wrong and changing them when it siuits

This is an arguement creationists use, and it actually happens far less often than the creationists would have you believe. Corrections to official scientific theories are rare, and even then relatively minor. This is due to the fact that a theory is not a guess....it's the result of a great deal of research, examination of evidence, study, and ultimately narrowing down every available possibility until coming to a conclusion.

Matters of human hormones and fetal development are actually among the areas in which science is currently extremely well versed.

But to actually give a child to be raised by a gay couple would be forcing them.

I'm going to say it one more time Kratos, and hope it sinks in. Homosexuality isn't contagious, please stop acting like it is.

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Blah... don't take one line out of the whole reason!

I knew this would pop up some time or another. However much I respect homosexuals, no. Because they are the BIRTH parents. You can't assume the kid is gay. Yes, it does seem fair to assume a kid is straight either, I see but what is more likely to happen? But to actually give a child to be raised by a gay couple would be forcing them. Sounds completely unfair UNLESS you are looking out for the well being of the child.

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I'm going to say it one more time Kratos, and hope it sinks in. Homosexuality isn't contagious, please stop acting like it is.

I never said it was contagious or acted like it. I am merely suggesting that the psychology of the mind could be conditioned and molded. Who is the greatest influence in a child's life... the parents.

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Sexuality has nothing to do with "the psychology of the mind". It's not like a phobia, or something that could be treated with therapy...churches have spent centuries trying to exorcise or torture people out of homosexuality, and it's hardly any great surprise that they've yet to manage it.

There is roughly a 70-80% chance (I forget the exact %) that any given member of the board reading this post is straight. All they need to do, therefore, is try and imagine feeling sexual attraction for their own gender...it should be immedietly obvious that you can't simply "create" feelings where none exist. In that same regard, sharing a household with a homosexual couple if not going to miraculously turn you gay.

Edited by Seraphina
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Sexuality has nothing to do with "the psychology of the mind". It's not like a phobia, or something that could be treated with therapy...churches have spent centuries trying to exorcise or torture people out of homosexuality, and it's hardly any great surprise that they've yet to manage it.

There is roughly a 70-80% chance (I forget the exact %) that any given member of the board reading this post is straight. All they need to do, therefore, is try and imagine feeling sexual attraction for their own gender...it should be immedietly obvious that you can't simply "create" feelings where none exist. In that same regard, sharing a household with a homosexual couple if not going to miraculously turn you gay.

Nevermind.I misread your post.No sexual attraction here.

Edited by Snake_6024
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Sexuality has nothing to do with "the psychology of the mind". It's not like a phobia, or something that could be treated with therapy...churches have spent centuries trying to exorcise or torture people out of homosexuality, and it's hardly any great surprise that they've yet to manage it.

There is roughly a 70-80% chance (I forget the exact %) that any given member of the board reading this post is straight. All they need to do, therefore, is try and imagine feeling sexual attraction for their own gender...it should be immedietly obvious that you can't simply "create" feelings where none exist. In that same regard, sharing a household with a homosexual couple if not going to miraculously turn you gay.

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How did you get a condition or disease out of conditioning and molding? blink.gif

Also, I am not talking about an adult. I am talking about a young child that will be adopted by a gay couple.

Don't be going around twisting my words to suit your needs to be right, look at them as if they are black and white and you will see what I am trying to say to you.

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Also, I am not talking about an adult. I am talking about a young child that will be adopted by a gay couple.

I think you'll find a child is far less open to the idea of sexual exploration than an adult is. The average child has neither the drive nor the inclination to be sexually inclined in either direction until puberty; at which point their raging hormones will be quite happily steering them in whichever direction nature intended for them, be it gay or straight.

Kratos, you continue to say you're not against homosexuals, yet you continue to paint them up as black hearted villains, who intend to corrupt our youth. The idea that homosexuality can be learned is a somewhat backwards and primitive idea, that many of us realised was garbage a long time ago indeed. Primary school pupils shun homosexuals for because they are ignorant enough to believe that....the average intelligent adult does not.

look at them as if they are black and white and you will see what I am trying to say to you.

I am looking at things black and white, because that's what sexuality is. Being homosexual is like being heterosexual....you either are, or you aren't. You cannot simply be forced into homosexuality by being raised by a homosexual couple, anymore than a gay child would be forced into heterosexuality by being raised by a straight couple.

Kratos, you're views on this matter seem to be quite obviously jaded by the typical prejudices and taboos that society still holds against homosexuality. Your arguement has all the logic of a catflap in a lion enclosure.

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This discussion is becoming more of an anti gay debate than a gay rights to marry discussion?

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I think you'll find a child is far less open to the idea of sexual exploration than an adult is. The average child has neither the drive nor the inclination to be sexually inclined in either direction until puberty; at which point their raging hormones will be quite happily steering them in whichever direction nature intended for them, be it gay or straight.

Just has to be conditioned that his daddy and daddy like boys and when he hits that age of puberty and if he is indeed straight, then he has mixed sexual id. Poor kid...

Kratos, you continue to say you're not against homosexuals, yet you continue to paint them up as black hearted villains, who intend to corrupt our youth. The idea that homosexuality can be learned is a somewhat backwards and primitive idea, that many of us realised was garbage a long time ago indeed. Primary school pupils shun homosexuals for because they are ignorant enough to believe that....the average intelligent adult does not.

TELL ME WHEN AND HOW I SAID THEY WERE VILLIANS! Don't shovel your crap down my throat! Psychology is not a primitive idea nor is it backwards. It is open to the chances of ANYTHING! You, yourself said that the guys that get married then switch to being gay are in denial... So you would want to do that to a straight kid when he starts to feel bad and ashamed of thinking of girls? YOU WANT HIM TO BE IN DENIAL?

I am looking at things black and white, because that's what sexuality is. Being homosexual is like being heterosexual....you either are, or you aren't. You cannot simply be forced into homosexuality by being raised by a homosexual couple, anymore than a gay child would be forced into heterosexuality by being raised by a straight couple.

"conditioning: To cause an organism to respond in a specific manner to a conditioned stimulus in the absence of an unconditioned stimulus."

Mind over matter! People do it every day regardless of what their body tells them. Why do you think young kids are advised not to be playing violent video games, even if they live in a peaceful enviroment?

Kratos, you're views on this matter seem to be quite obviously jaded by the typical prejudices and taboos that society still holds against homosexuality. Your arguement has all the logic of a catflap in a lion enclosure.

So I can't be for gays but against them in one area? blink.gif I'm not really concerned about them at all in this whole thing. I am more concerned about the well being of the child as they grow up and mature as adults. I just turned the case around on gays cause they said why should you force something to be something if they are not?

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Kratos.....

If sexuality is conditioned exactly how you say, how do you explain Straight couples having gay children....

They would be privy to all the hetrosexual equivilents that your reffering to... Why is it it doesn't effect them, but would effect straight kids?

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If sexuality is conditioned exactly how you say, how do you explain Straight couples having gay children....

I've brought this up a number of times...he appears to ignore such an obvious and gaping hole in his thinking (if you'll excuse the exageration).

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Of course kratos way of thinking in this matter is flawed. Even if what he said was true, he would be putting the Gay kids at a disadvantage by putting them in a home where they would become gender confused.

So I guess the only option would be to hold the children in confinement till they reached puberty and knew themselves which side of the fence they resided.....

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Of course, after that, we'd have to make sure that no black or asian couples are able to adopt white kids because, as we know, they would end up forcing their skin colour on their children!

I can't believe we've let this evil go on so long! Thousands of children are being forced to change an intricate and irreversable part of their makeup! It must be stopped before it's too late!

...or not.

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Maybe if I had been raised by different parents, I may not have had this baldness gene forced upon me.... Bald people should not raise children.....

Ok..enough of this..lol

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Kratos.....

If sexuality is conditioned exactly how you say, how do you explain Straight couples having gay children....

They would be privy to all the hetrosexual equivilents that your reffering to... Why is it it doesn't effect them, but would effect straight kids?

Kratos,I know I said I won't help you out but you are obviously outnumbered.

So here goes my argument:

Not only parents have influence on the child but other factors as well.If the sexual preference only becomes evident at puberty,then we can assume they have been influenced by school,friends etc.

Edited by Snake_6024
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Okay, on one final note....

Kratos, when a child is adopted, do their eyes change colour to match those of their new parents? Does their hair colour? Do they suddenly change to physically resemble their new parents?

The short answer is no.

In that regard, their sexuality (which, as I've stated, is as much a part of a person's makeup as their eye colour, or whether they're left or right handed) doesn't change either. Someday, I trust you will come to realise this tongue.gif

Not only parents have influence on the child but other factors as well.If the sexual preference only becomes evident at puberty,then we can assume they have been influenced by school,friends etc.

Then why is the case being argued that homosexual couples could magically influence their child's sexuality, when a straight couple would not, in the place of school and friends?

There's no logic or genuine thought going on from this side of the arguement at all. It's fueled entirerly by an unwillingness to let go of the taboo surrounding homosexuality. You can argue until you're blue in the face, it won't make what you're saying true...and it won't change the fact that there isn't a reason why homosexuals are any less qualified to raise a child in a loving and healthy environment than a heterosexual couple that can stand on its own for more than a few solid kicks.

Edited by Seraphina
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Not only parents have influence on the child but other factors as well.If the sexual preference only becomes evident at puberty,then we can assume they have been influenced by school,friends etc.

No... If that was the case it wouldnt happen at that time. Its happening due to natural hormones, not due to the child suddenly having their mind made up for them......

And even IF you had a small percetage possibility of being right.... Why would the kids that are gay cope with hetrosexual parents, whereas hetrosexuals seemingly are weak...?

Edited by Subtemperate
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You can't surpress skin,eye or hair colour.Homosexuality can be,was and still is being repressed.

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And thats your arguement?

Why do you think homosexuality should be repressed? huh.gif

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Then why is the case being argued that homosexual couples could magically influence their child's sexuality, when a straight couple would not, in the place of school and friends?

A straight couple can influence them,however in some cases the influence of other factors overwheigs the influence of the parents.

And even IF you had a small percetage possibility of being right.... Why would the kids that are gay cope with hetrosexual parents, whereas hetrosexuals seemingly are weak...?

That's another issue.I'm simply discussing the possibility,that sexual preference can be repressed by outside factors.

And thats your arguement?

Why do you think homosexuality should be repressed?

Why do you assume I do?

Edited by Snake_6024
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