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Gays march through Europe demanding right to marry


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Fact: All of the available evidence demonstrates that the sexual orientation of parents has no impact on the sexual orientation of their children and that children of lesbian and gay parents are no more likely than any other child to grow up to be gay. There is some evidence that children of gays and lesbians are more tolerant of diversity, but this is certainly not a disadvantage. Of course, some children of lesbians and gay men will grow up to be gay, as will some children of heterosexual parents. These children will have the added advantage of being raised by parents who are supportive and accepting in a world that can sometimes be hostile.

-See Bailey, J.M., Bobrow, D., Wolfe, M. & Mikach, S. (1995), Sexual orientation of adult sons of gay fathers, Developmental Psychology, 31, 124-129; Bozett, F.W. (1987). Children of gay fathers, F.W. Bozett (Ed.), Gay and Lesbian Parents (pp. 39-57), New York: Praeger; Gottman, J.S. (1991), Children of gay and lesbian parents, F.W. Bozett & M.B. Sussman, (Eds.), Homosexuality and Family Relations (pp. 177-196), New York: Harrington Park Press; Golombok, S., Spencer, A., & Rutter, M. (1983), Children in lesbian and single-parent households: psychosexual and psychiatric appraisal, Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry, 24, 551-572; Green, R. (1978), Sexual identity of 37 children raised by homosexual or transsexual parents, American Journal of Psychiatry, 135, 692-697; Huggins, S.L., (1989) A comparative study of self-esteem of adolescent children of divorced lesbian mothers and divorced heterosexual mothers, F. W. Bozett (Ed.), Homosexuality and the Family (pp. 123-135), New York: Harrington Park Press; Miller, B. (1979), Gay fathers and their children, The Family Coordinator, 28, 544-52; Paul, J.P. (1986).-

Why do you assume I do?

Because if you dont think it should be, I cant understand why youd use that as an argument. The reverse of your arguement is that it should not be repressed, and therefore there is no problem with it.... Meaning that if your not trying to say it should be... your not saying anything really.... huh.gif

Edited by Subtemperate
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  • Seraphina

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Snake, if you're going to try and make a point, I suggest you try a little harder next time. There is a huge difference between "supressed" and "changed". A person cannot change their sexuality....nor can another person force them to change it. There are some people who live in denial (although I do maintain that, in order to have any kind of prolonged sexual relationship with someone of the opposite sex, a homosexual would have to be, in fact, bisexual. This is simply down to the fact that, as I stated earlier, it is impossible to simply "create" sexual attraction where none exists.)

Allow me to conduct an expiriment...I would like any heterosexual person to genuinly try...try very hard...to pretend for a moment that they're gay. I would like them to attempt to imagine being sexually attracted to someone of their own gender.

....*pauses*....*looks at watch*...

I sure as hell can't do it, and I imagine you can't either tongue.gif I can no more make myself attracted to a gender that I'm not, then a homosexual person can. Therefore, I say again, anyone who spends an extended period of time in the closet, actually entering into heterosexual relationships, is far more likely to be bisexual than simply "ignoring" it,

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Because if you dont think it should be, I cant understand why youd use that as an argument. The reverse of your arguement is that it should not be repressed, and therefore there is no problem with it.... Meaning that if your not trying to say it should be... your not saying anything really....

The reverse of my argument would be that it CANNOT be repressed.

As to your above quote:

And if the president would tell me that it is that way I still wouldn't believe it.Your quote is actually quite unnecessary,since if it is proven you can surely prove me wrong by pure logic and not by imitating complete strangers,no matter how credible they may be.

Snake, if you're going to try and make a point, I suggest you try a little harder next time. There is a huge difference between "supressed" and "changed". A person cannot change their sexuality....nor can another person force them to change it. There are some people who live in denial (although I do maintain that, in order to have any kind of prolonged sexual relationship with someone of the opposite sex, a homosexual would have to be, in fact, bisexual. This is simply down to the fact that, as I stated earlier, it is impossible to simply "create" sexual attraction where none exists.)

Allow me to conduct an expiriment...I would like any heterosexual person to genuinly try...try very hard...to pretend for a moment that they're gay. I would like them to attempt to imagine being sexually attracted to someone of their own gender.

....*pauses*....*looks at watch*...

I sure as hell can't do it, and I imagine you can't either I can no more make myself attracted to a gender that I'm not, then a homosexual person can. Therefore, I say again, anyone who spends an extended period of time in the closet, actually entering into heterosexual relationships, is far more likely to be bisexual than simply "ignoring" it,

Again,I'm arguing that sexual preference can be SURPRESSED.I never said ,it can be changed.

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So...what in the world is your point?

Even with that argument you could say that equal amount of surpression would happen to homosexuals in hetrosexual households (if that isnt the case at the moment that more happens)..... How is that an argument against this?

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I never said ,it can be changed.

If you agree it can't be changed, what in the name of blue holy hell are you doing disagreeing with us in a debate about whether or not allowing a gay couple to raise a child might make that child homosexual? huh.gif

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So...what in the world is your point?

Proving that sexual preference can be repressed.That's basically all.I don't have to have a reason to argue about an issue,do I?

Even with that argument you could say that equal amount of surpression would happen to homosexuals in hetrosexual households (if that isnt the case at the moment that more happens)..... How is that an argument against this?

That's another issue.I'm simply discussing the possibility,that sexual preference can be repressed by outside factors.

PS:

You maybe will see ALL parts of my posts,if you are not constantly searching for signs of racism,homophobia or whatever you are looking for in my posts.

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No, Im searching to relevency to the topic.....

What relevency to the topic is it, if it can be applied to both sides and therfore be null and voided as an issue?

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No, Im searching to relevency to the topic.....

What relevency to the topic is it, if it can be applied to both sides and therfore be null and voided as an issue?

It can be applied to both sides?

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Please tell us why hetrosexuals in homosexual households will receive far more problems in life, then homosexuals in hetrosexual households.

If you state outside influences would factor, surely they would factor both sides of the equation?

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Please tell us why hetrosexuals in homosexual households will receive far more problems in life, then homosexuals in hetrosexual households.

I told you a few times already: that is not my argument.

If you state outside influences would factor, surely they would factor both sides of the equation?

Of course.Read my post again.

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Of course kratos way of thinking in this matter is flawed.   Even if what he said was true, he would be putting the Gay kids at a disadvantage by putting them in a home where they would become gender confused.

So I guess the only option would be to hold the children in confinement till they reached puberty and knew themselves which side of the fence they resided.....

708090[/snapback]

If you had indeed read all my posts, you would have saw that I said most kids... not all are straight and I was going by the numbers for the maximum effect. Sure, in my way of thinking some gay kids might get screwed over but more kids will be not. That is what I am going at. The better care for the most kids... jeez.

Edited by __Kratos__
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Ok.... Let me put it a little more simply for you.....

You are saying that the issue you described would suit both situations. both homosexual kids and hetrosexual kids would have the same issue.

The issue here is whether gays can adopt, if I am not mistaken..... Therefore if your issue can is the same for both gay parents, and straight parents with the opposing sexuality children..... You are either not arguing a point at all in regards to the topic, or you seem to think homosexual kids are at far less a risk then hetrosexual kids..... Or that homosexual parents aren't up to the same standard as the hetrosexual parents.

Please pick your answer to this topic, explain to me whether you are for or against. At the moment your using arguements which you yourself said can fit both sets of parents/children.... Therefore why should homosexual's be not allowed to adopt, since the problems are the same as hetrosexual parents with gay children?

If you had indeed read all my posts, you would have saw that I said most kids... not all are straight and I was going by the numbers for the maximum effect. Sure, in my way of thinking some gay kids might get screwed over but more kids will be not. That is what I am going at. The better care for the most kids... jeez.

And if you looked at my post you would have seen countless studies had been done where no effect different to hetrosexual couples was detected.

Edited by Subtemperate
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The issue here is whether gays can adopt, if I am not mistaken..... Therefore if your issue can is the same for both gay parents, and straight parents with the opposing sexuality children..... You are either not arguing a point at all in regards to the topic, or you seem to think homosexual kids are at far less a risk then hetrosexual kids..... Or that homosexual parents aren't up to the same standard as the hetrosexual parents.

No,I'm simply arguing that children are influenced by their surroundings,the same thing you are/were doing,only for the opposite side.

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Snake, No, you may has misread my posts. Sera may have said that, but my point entirely is that the problem described by you would be the same across the board.

Children get mistreated with straight parents, and gay parents. there will be problems with both. my point is counting one side out seeing those problems as evidense is in itself stupid.

So... are you for or against it, you dont seem to want to give an opinion on the issue...

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I am for gays, but not for gays adopting. I only state that because I believe in the care of the child.

Most kids are indeed straight. If you give a straight kid to a gay couple to be raised, it would be like forcing him to be gay only because of conditioning. I believe in mind over matter where you mind will overcome your genes. If that straight kid is thinking like that (which in reverse gay people are against forcing animals and humans to be straight as I stated about the case of the gay penguins in the zoo and the protests). Yes, he could be influenced also by his genes in puberty but that would just give that kid mixed sexual id. How far is it to have the kid suffer?

On the flip side a man and a women (or single parent) raising a gay kid, would more then likely condition the gay kid to be straight. But as I stated earlier there are more straight kids then gay kids, so the number that would actually suffer would be far less.

Now, if you can give me some sort of medical test that can be done to know for 99.9% that the kid is gay, give that kid to a gay couple to be conditioned to his/her sexual preference.

Indeed, we have all assumed so far that there is only gays and straights... no grey area. What to do about bisexual kids?

In the case of bisexual kids, it wouldn't really matter which kind of parent(s) they grow up with because they have both genetics to have desire for men and women. Granted they have a favorite depending on the parenting but will still be mostly free of confused sexual id.

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Most kids are indeed straight. If you give a straight kid to a gay couple to be raised, it would be like forcing him to be gay only because of conditioning. I believe in mind over matter where you mind will overcome your genes. If that straight kid is thinking like that (which in reverse gay people are against forcing animals and humans to be straight as I stated about the case of the gay penguins in the zoo and the protests). Yes, he could be influenced also by his genes in puberty but that would just give that kid mixed sexual id. How far is it to have the kid suffer?

Kratos.... read what your saying. if that was true there would be NO gay kids. All kids come from male female relationships (or ivf, but thats different).... SO over time there would be NO gay kids, as all were brought up in a straight household.

Do you see the flaw in your argument?

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Snake, No, you may has misread my posts. Sera may have said that, but my point entirely is that the problem described by you would be the same across the board.

Maybe I have.

Children get mistreated with straight parents, and gay parents. there will be problems with both. my point is counting one side out seeing those problems as evidense is in itself stupid.

So... are you for or against it, you dont seem to want to give an opinion on the issue...

I don't have one.

The sole purpose of my argument is to provide a basis for Kratos argument.

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Kratos.... read what your saying. if that was true there would be NO gay kids. All kids come from male female relationships (or ivf, but thats different).... SO over time there would be NO gay kids, as all were brought up in a straight household.

Do you see the flaw in your argument?

There is no flaw.

Instincts can SOMETIMES be stronger than your willpower.He's only stating that "mind over matter" apllies more often.

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Can you give a basis for Kratos's seemingly thought out "gay kids dont matter because they are a minority, even though theres nothing wrong with being gay" theory?

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Most kids are indeed straight. If you give a straight kid to a gay couple to be raised, it would be like forcing him to be gay only because of conditioning. I believe in mind over matter where you mind will overcome your genes. If that straight kid is thinking like that (which in reverse gay people are against forcing animals and humans to be straight as I stated about the case of the gay penguins in the zoo and the protests). Yes, he could be influenced also by his genes in puberty but that would just give that kid mixed sexual id. How far is it to have the kid suffer?

Kratos.... read what your saying. if that was true there would be NO gay kids. All kids come from male female relationships (or ivf, but thats different).... SO over time there would be NO gay kids, as all were brought up in a straight household.

Do you see the flaw in your argument?

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I see the flaw, on how you look at it... but there is gay people and yes there is mixed sexual id. Granted all may not overcome it and live in "denial" but some do. So there would have to be gays in the world. If there weren't then we wouldn't be having this chat. tongue.gif

Can you give a basis for Kratos's seemingly thought out "gay kids dont matter because they are a minority, even though theres nothing wrong with being gay" theory?

708202[/snapback]

Without the facts that the kid is gay or not, and the fact that there is more straight kids, what would you have me do? Throw them all in a blender to be mixed together and whoever gets messed up, just gets messed up? Instead of limiting the numbers of messed up kids? I'm sorry to say, but why sacrifice 1,000 kids when you could only sacrifice 50? blink.gif

Edited by __Kratos__
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Can you give a basis for Kratos's seemingly thought out "gay kids dont matter because they are a minority, even though theres nothing wrong with being gay" theory?

1.That's not exactly his theory.

2.I already did for his REAL theory.

3.If that were his theory,would I have to?

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It can be the case that a kid might grow up thinking, or at least wondering if, he might be gay because of shyness with women and feeling more comfortable with his own sex, just because that's what he's more familiar with? Maybe it's not conditioning exactly, but what you might call social factors, combined with the individual's personality, I think might come into it.

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Posted (IP: Staff) ·

Your right but the genetic coding for that person would have to leave them in a position of being un-sure.

Have you ever met one of those men you knew was totaly hetro, and girls who are painfully girly. Then there are the inbetween types, boy's who like the company of girls because they are not comfortable with grunting sweaty sportsman. And girls who like car engines and want to know how they work, girls who would rather spend an afternoon kicking a football with the boys that shopping for the latest fashions.

It's genetic, however the degrees of effect are varying.

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It's genetic, however the degrees of effect are varying.

Strictly speaking, it's not actually genetic....its hormonal. The examples you described fall along a broad range of variations that can occur based on a developing fetus' exposure to various male hormones as it's growing.

Allow me to paint a pretty picture for all the people who, although they claim to be "for gays", are coming up with ridiculous reasons to deny them basic rights that are allowed for straight couples, and not thinking very far beyond either their own prejudices, or lack of understanding of homosexuality to do it.

Every single invertibrate embryo (yes, that includes you) begins female (on the genetic level at least). Every single one of you...that's just the basic factory setting, due to the manner in which chromosomes are arranges. At a certain stage of development, the fetus may receive a massive dose of male hormone - this will cause the fetus to grow testes, and start to develope as a male physically.

At a more advanced stage of development, a second dose may be recieved, which will configure the fetus to male bahaviour patterns (to greater or lesser degrees depending on the amount of hormone delivered). In theory, the second dosage is supposed to be proportional to the amount recieved in the first dose...however, this simply isn't always the case in practice.

If a fetus recieves the first dose, but not the second (or an insufficient amount of the second), then what you will end up with is a male configured to female behaviour. There is a fairly good chance he'll be gay or bisexual (although, again, that varies with the amount of the hormone recieved in the second dose). On the other hand, he may be straight, but will now have the added ability to not only put up the shelves, but put them in the right place the first time round.

If the fetus doesn't recieve the first dose, but does get a significantly larger than required dose the second time, you will end up with a female configured to male behaviour...the results can range to lesbianism, to being the envy of her female cohorts through the amazing ability to read a map tongue.gif

That is what causes homosexuality...and it is the only point at which homosexuality can be determined. Unless a homosexual couple regress their adopted children to a fetal state and start either denying them hormones, or pumping them full of them as needed, there is absolutely no way they can change a person's sexuality.

The unfortuante truth is that some people still live in the dark ages, and not only don't properly understand homosexuality, but make no attempt to either. Rather than look at the research that has been done, and the facts derived from it, they would much rather either make things up "Homosexuals are demons! Raaah!", or fall back on the beliefs that most people stop having when they leave primary school "Homosexuality is contagious! Hang around gays and you'll become one!"

It's depressing to argue with such a person.

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