Soldier's mom protests near Bush's ranch

[Celumnaz]

Whose Kids Are In Iraq? The Ones Who Make The Country Work

August 15, 2005

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT

RUSH: John in San Diego, you're next. Welcome to the program. Nice to have you with us.

CALLER: Thank you for taking my call.

RUSH: Yeah.

CALLER: I believe that Cindy Sheehan is bringing up one important point, though.

RUSH: What's that?

CALLER: If this is a valiant and noble cause, why don't we have [sic] any senators sons or House of Representatives sons volunteering to go over there? Why isn't the president's daughters doing something for the war effort, if this is such a valiant effort? And that's the primary purpose that she has made this protest for, is the fact that the average person is being used as cannon fodder basically for this effort, and it's not a noble cause.

RUSH: John, you disappoint me, but you don't surprise me. No war is noble as far as you all are concerned. The US is guilty. This argument is tiresome, boring, and specious. Why didn't the president's daughters go? It's a volunteer force! The president didn't "send" Cindy Sheehan's son over there; he volunteered. If she is doing anything, she is sullying his memory. She is making his life worthless. She is making what he volunteered to do worthless, and you guys, you don't see this. There are sons, there are family members of elected officials in Washington who have been and are in Iraq. It's not a great number, but they are there. But it's not a draft, and the president can't choose who goes. It's a volunteer army and everything that you said is doing a disservice to those who have volunteered to represent this country and serve this country and their families, and if I were you, I would be ashamed and try to grow up and get a little maturity.

BREAK TRANSCRIPT

RUSH: My friends, there's another reason why the Sheehan thing is going to derail, why this train is going to derail, and that's because look at who her public relations outfit is. It's the mainstream press. They don't have universal respect anymore. They don't even have any concept of how they are harming her cause by championing it, but I want to talk about something larger here with you liberals. I know there are a lot of you here in the audience. We hear from you now and then, and it may be a waste of my time but I'm going to try it anyway. But I think you all need to look at things differently than you do. You need to take your focus off of government. You know how absurd it is for us to hear that a war is ignoble because the president's kids aren't there or because congressmen's kids aren't there? Do you know how irrelevant that is? Do you know who makes this country work? Can I ask you people on the left if you have the slightest idea who makes this country work? Because I'll tell you, it's not the president, I don't care who he is, and it's not Congress, and I don't care who they are. The people who make this country work are the people, and they're people you've never heard of. They are people unlike Cindy Sheehan, who are not seeking publicity, they are not seeking fame. They take life seriously. They try to mix their work and pleasure into a proper balance. They try to raise their kids the right way. They're doing everything they can to follow the straight-and-narrow. They sometimes slip off, but the people who make this country work, the fabled average American. That's who you liberals condemn, whether you know it or not. That's who you impugn. It's always been the case.

World War II was not won by Eisenhower. World War II was not won by FDR. World War II was not won by any particular leader. World War II was not won by Patton. Everybody played a role. But without the sons and daughters of the American people, this country wouldn't amount to anything. It is the people who make this country work, and the ease with which those of you on the left disparage the people in this country while you seek to focus all attention on government, is a sight to behold, and it is why you are losing elections; it is why you are losing favor; it is why you are becoming more fringe and extreme and kooky, because you've lost touch. You've lost contact. You've lost all ability to understand who it is that comprises the heart and soul of this country. You have no clue who the backbone of this country is; but I will tell you this: it's not Cindy Sheehan and it's not one member of her entourage in a ditch in Crawford, Texas. Those people are a bunch of squatters. Those people right now are contributing nothing to the greatness or future of this country. Neither are the members of the media who are down there trying to elevate all those people in the ditch to be superheroes. There's not one of them that comes anywhere near rating the title of hero. They are nothing but a bunch of squatters who are miserable and unhappy for who knows whatever reasons and deciding to take it out on people who they think have control over their lives. In this case, with a bunch of liberals, it's government. You want government to have control over your life, you want government to be able to do this and that for your friends and neighbors and help you, but the simple truth of this country is that it's the people who make this country work. It is the people who comprise the economy.

It is the people who comprise the morality. It is the people of this country who determine the ethics. It is the people of this country, and that's what you're upset about because you're in the minority. The people of this country, the people who make this country work differ from you in tremendous ways. They are religious. They are God-fearing. They respect values and morality. They know what's right and they know what's wrong, and they do their best to abide. You are offended by all that, claiming they don't have the right to make such decisions, while you sit around and make no decisions whatsoever because you're willing to totally put your life in the hands of some liberal politician and that will take you off the hook for having to make any decision about your life or anybody else's. Well, that's not how the country works. This country works on the basis of an educated and informed public seeking excellence in their own lives to whatever degree they wish it. People pursuing life the best they can, using freedom, God-given freedom -- and for you to call here and to come up with something as irrelevant as to say this war is not worth it because the president's kids aren't there or because nobody from Washington's kids are there doesn't say a thing about the war effort, doesn't say one thing about it, doesn't make it noble, doesn't make it ignoble, doesn't make it anything, because the war is taking place. Whether you agree with the fact that it's going on or not, we all have come to the decision that it's best that we win it. You haven't even joined us on that. You hope we lose it. You want to lose it because you want to embarrass the leaders of the country. What must your lives be like?

Are your lives so endless, baseless, and void of substance that the only pleasure you get from life is through watching the misery of others and trying to cause misery for others? Are you so incapable of enjoying the God-given gift of life that you've got, that you can only do so when other people are suffering, hopefully as a result of actions you've taken? What must it be like to be you people? What must it be like to get up every day and to have to go to your calendar and write "Destroy somebody today. Destroy something today. Destroy America today"? What must that be like? When you look out across the country and you see a burgeoning economy, you see the lone world superpower -- and it's not because of any president, and it's not because of any weapon, and it's not because of any military, it's because of the people of this country and our values and our Constitution. We're no different than any other people, other than we have freedom -- and you don't even like that! You only want freedom for yourselves, defined as you define it. So people can't say things that offend you, they can't do things that offend you, we can't have stupid names for sports teams. The absurdity of this whole political correctness movement. We can't have some team called the Redskins, we can't have some team called the Seminoles. Don't you understand these team names do it, it's an honor? Do you think a school calls itself the Seminoles to make fun of the Seminoles or are they trying to build themselves up? It's a matter of pride. But you people are so miserably unhappy that you have to find ways to constantly make everybody else around you unhappy, and so you go hang around with a woman who's crazed out of her mind in a ditch in Crawford, Texas, and then you have the audacity to call here and tell us that you are the great ones, that you're the ones that care, that you're the ones that have this country's best interests at heart.

If it were up to you people we wouldn't exist as a country today, you would have given in to the Soviets long ago, you would have appeased the Soviet communists. You would appease Iran right now, you probably wouldn't have cared about the war on terror or the bombing on 9/11. You would have sought out bin Laden and tried to make a deal with him, and this country exists today only because we have been able to prevent you from gaining power to do that kind of thing. We've had our run-ins with Neville Chamberlain types and you're the modern incarnation. To sit here, to actually have the gall to call this program and advance something you think as an intellectual argument that Cindy Sheehan's cause is noble, because the president's daughters aren't in Iraq, or congressmen's sons and daughters aren't in Iraq, have you no shame? Do you realize whose sons and daughters are? Do you understand it's voluntary? Do you understand these are people who are offering their lives in sacrifice for things they believe in? And what do you do? You come along and you try to disabuse them of their belief by telling them that they're wrong and that their country sucks. Well, to the extent that they think their country sucks it's because of you and your efforts to constantly undermine this country's best interests and our desires and efforts to protect the people of this country and to bring freedom to as many others in this world as possible. You people on the left used to be the ones that were all for civil rights around the world. You were all for human rights. Now all of a sudden you couldn't care less about the status of Iraqis. You couldn't care less. It's gotten so absurd, now that Howard Dean said on TV that if this new constitution is enacted as written, that the women of Iraq are going to be worse off than they were under Saddam Hussein.

Do you realize how patently absurd and bordering on insane that comment is? No, you don't. Because you think so little of your own country, you think so little of this president, you have such little faith in the ideals that have combined to make this a great country, that you assume it's worse here than anywhere else, and the places that it is bad is because of us, either through environmental pollution, or whatever cockamamie, asinine, stupid, ignoramus idea you can come up with. It's gotten to the point now where it is common to go on Democrat websites and read about the pleasure it would bring if the president were assassinated. It is now common to read letters to the editors in newspapers which say it would be fun if bin Laden actually came over here and slit Bush's throat, which is what a supporter of Sheehan wrote to a letter of the editor in one of the newspapers in this country. Yes, it would have been better if bin Laden would have just come here and slit Bush's throat. Do you have any idea how you people are perceived? Do you have the slightest idea how the decent people who make this country work perceive you? It is not with any respect. It is with contempt and it's with sorrow. But it's also with this realization: This country, if it is to survive, cannot be turned over to you people to lead and to run, because we will cease to exist as the United States the day that happens, and mark my word. It ain't going to happen.

BREAK TRANSCRIPT

RUSH: I have a story here from the San Diego Union Tribune on September 13th, 2004. "On a visit to Iraq in June, Rep. Duncan Hunter [R-CA] gave a short speech to Marines in a Fallujah mess hall and told them how important they were in the war on terrorism. One Marine in the audience found the congressman's talk so inspiring that he wrote about it in an e-mail to his mother. He said it lifted everyone's spirits and 'erased all doubts I had about being here.' 'I got chills and thought about how proud I am to be fighting for America in my capacity,' he wrote. The Marine who sent that note was 1st Lt. Duncan Duane Hunter, Hunter's oldest son and one of a handful of troops in Iraq whose father or mother is a member of Congress." He's got one son that's there on his second tour. But it's absurd, folks, on the face of it. It is absurd to say that this is somehow a definition of whether something noble or not, whether something's got any integrity or not. It ignores the role we all play as a people together in whatever national cause we undertake, and I wouldn't expect too many people on the left to understand that. Paul in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, welcome, nice to have you on the program.

CALLER: Thank you, sir, I appreciate it. Yeah, I just wanted to say, especially after that one caller, I mean I didn't volunteer because the president's daughters were doing something or some senator's son was joining or anything like that, and I didn't join because I was coming from the ghetto and I wanted to get out. You know, I joined because it was a career choice, and I wanted to do it, and I really feel that if her son was here today -- and I understand her grief. I mean, I'm a father as well, but I served in Iraq. I've served in Afghanistan. I've been over there many times, and, you know, I've had friends lost right next to me in battle, and I can understand the grief, but, you know what? At the same time they're doing what they wanted to do. So many of these people are stuck back in the Vietnam days, and the days of the draft, that I used to get e-mail saying, "Boy, I'm sorry that you're over there." I would e-mail back and say, "What do you mean, you're sorry? I put myself here on purpose. This is what I want to do."

RUSH: It's no more complicated than the fact that the people who are engaged in all this simply don't like this country, and they haven't liked it since the sixties. They haven't liked it their whole lives. Thankfully there aren't that many of them. There are only a hundred people down there with her, but she's gone beyond grief, this is not about grief for her, this is not a woman grieving, this is a woman reveling this attention, this is a woman soaking it all up. This is a woman thinking she matters. Which we all want to do. Everybody wants to matter. Everybody wants their life to have meaning. Unfortunately, hers has taken on this direction that the meaning she thinks she's deriving is actually empty. There's no meaning to what she's doing. She's a pawn, she's a tool of a bunch of fellow crackpots upon whom we couldn't depend if our lives were at stake, and that's why they are so few and far between. Thankfully, they are not anywhere near the majority of people in the country.

END TRANSCRIPT

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/sit...man.member.html

Hey I found this Rush guy while looking for things on this topic. Has a really nice site. Lots and Lots and LOTS of documentation.

[iaapac]

"John, you disappoint me, but you don't surprise me."

Rush, you disappoint me, but you don't surprise me.

In a failing economy caused by the administration that you claim has no fault in anything, young people turn to military service as a means of obtaining an advanced education and perhaps learning a new skill or trade. But you are right, the true force and movement in America is the people. The American people have formed tradtions and principles by which they live and expect to be governed. Among these is a government with a true concern about their welfare. Young people may volunteer but they trust a responsible government (that to your conservative view has no fault) not to lead them into destructive wars, not to kill them in the blossom of their youth and not to force them to face death for causes based on deceptions and lies coming from that government that you claim has no fault.

"orld War II was not won by Eisenhower. World War II was not won by FDR. World War II was not won by any particular leader. World War II was not won by Patton. Everybody played a role. But without the sons and daughters of the American people, this country wouldn't amount to anything. It is the people who make this country work, and the ease with which those of you on the left disparage the people in this country while you seek to focus all attention on government, is a sight to behold, and it is why you are losing elections; it is why you are losing favor; it is why you are becoming more fringe and extreme and kooky, because you've lost touch. You've lost contact. You've lost all ability to understand who it is that comprises the heart and soul of this country. You have no clue who the backbone of this country is."

Rush, only a person with absolutely no contact with reality or fact would dare expose the ignorance to compare what is happening in Iraq with World War II. How dare you be so arrogant as to accuse the majority opinion of the American people (57% who do not support the war in Iraq) as being out of touch simply because they are intelligent enough not to agree with your bigotted and deceptive points.

World War II represented a noble cause dealing with the future of half of the world. It was characterized by the senseless slaughter of six million jews and later by more than that number who died in the Soviet concentration camps of Siberia. A real and demonstrable threat existed in the world and men went to oppose it with the knowledge that their sacrifices would, indeed, represent the best of the human spirit and the highest of man's nobility.

You insult the American people and those veterans who remain from that great war. You have no idea of how to compare world events or you simply have no point and want to mislead the people with your know-it-all attitude that best characterizes your anemic intellect.

"Do you realize how patently absurd and bordering on insane that comment is? No, you don't. Because you think so little of your own country, you think so little of this president, you have such little faith in the ideals that have combined to make this a great country, that you assume it's worse here than anywhere else, and the places that it is bad is because of us, either through environmental pollution, or whatever cockamamie, asinine, stupid, ignoramus idea you can come up with."

What lunatic can really mention the name of George W. Bush with the ideals that have made this country great? And the only cockamamie, asinine, stupid, ignoramus idea anyone had was to tune into a station featuring you.

Rush Limbaugh and those like him represent the most radical extremist views available to contaminate public opinion. They believe everyone, except them of course, are stupid, uniformed, incapable of making responsible decisions or forming sound opinions. He and those like him represent the worst of our society and they climb into positions of influence only because they are controversial, not well informed, articulate or intelligent.

I hope there are others who are offended by the offering of this media idiot as evidence of any point of any kind.

[Celumnaz]

holy socks! I was going to take you point by point, but that's so full of cow manure it was taking too long.

Nice use of adjectives though. I could almost feel the spittle.

[iaapac]

Nice adjectives? Like cow manure??

[sanchera1978]

So when he was on the air was he off pain killers or on them??

[iaapac]

I can't ever understand what he's saying. He always has his head too far up George Bush's a _ _ .

[Celumnaz]

Nice adjectives?  Like cow manure??

793646[/snapback]

Hey, get's the point across!

Was going to say:

"If brevity is the soul of wit... that's quite the mouthfull you said there."

But decided not to.

So when he was on the air was he off pain killers or on them??

793649[/snapback]

off? Do you know when he started them or why and when/if he ever got off them? (that's a serious question, I don't know)

I can't ever understand what he's saying.  He always has his head too far up George Bush's a _ _ .

793662[/snapback]

Good thing it's in readable form for you here. How can I hear him? I don't know who carrys his stuff. Guess I could go check out his website again...

Edited August 16, 2005 by Celumnaz

[sanchera1978]

here is a link to that info. He bought them illegally from the black market. I dont like him becuase he seems like an undercover racist to me!

http://www.cnn.com/2003/SHOWBIZ/10/10/rush.limbaugh/

[Celumnaz]

Ohhh, he got addicted after a bad surgery... I don't see where he got them on the black market illegally, all I see are allegations, you'd think he'd be in court and have had to pay a fine if he was guilty... but I admit I don't know a whole lot about it.

He has a cochlear implant!? Wow. Cool. Poor guy. Cool though.

Haven't seen anything that smacks of racism either yet... again I dunno... I'm very wary of that racism card... pollitical correctness police out there...

[sanchera1978]

read the article and you will see where he got them from the black market. You guys always want to proof to back stuff up but then dont even take the time to read it. So your telling me you listen to a man that you know nothing about. "If a blind person leads a blind person, both of them will fall into a hole." keep on listening to him i am sure he will fill your mind with his vast wisdom.

PC is about trying not to offended someone else. it can be taken to far but there isnt anything wrong with it. Would you like people calling you a wetback just because your mom is mexican?? Nobody likes getting called derogatory names thats what PC is for.

[Celumnaz]

read the article and you will see where he got them from the black market. You guys always want to proof to back stuff up but then dont even take the time to read it.  So your telling me you listen to a man that you know nothing about. "If a blind person leads a blind person, both of them will fall into a hole."  keep on listening to him i am sure he will fill your mind with his vast wisdom.

I read the article.

Heck I didn't realize he had that implant.

I listen to him? I'm going to start... see what all the fuss is.

Law enforcement sources said last week that Limbaugh's name had come up during an investigation into a black market drug ring in Palm Beach County, Florida. The sources said that authorities were looking into the illegal sale of the prescription drugs OxyContin and hydrocodone.

Limbaugh, who has a residence in Palm Beach County, was named by sources as a possible buyer. He was not the focus of the investigation, according to the sources.

Ohhh, he got addicted after a bad surgery... I don't see where he got them on the black market illegally, all I see are allegations, you'd think he'd be in court and have had to pay a fine if he was guilty... but I admit I don't know a whole lot about it.

I still don't see the proof he got them on the black market illegaly. Just the allegation... What am I missing? What are you reading into this that I'm missing? Has he been fined? Has he been convicted? Is this just rumor-mongering?

PC is about trying not to offended someone else. it can be taken to far but there isnt anything wrong with it.  Would you like people calling you a wetback just because your mom is mexican?? Nobody likes getting called derogatory names thats what PC is for.

793778[/snapback]

I've been called a wetback. It does not bother me. I don't go home crying when (yes I said when) it happens. I also don't go running to judges, or the legislature to regulate my fellow man's speech. He wants to proclaim he's an idiot, let him I say. PC is Evil. Just as evil as the racists that proclaim their idiocy with thier speech.

Yes there's a respect factor. I don't go around calling anyone names (except maybe liberals and extremist right-wingers, they frighten me). But then, that goes back to a reflection on society, and media (hollywood, music industry... Liberals, etc... ) has had a huge roll in degrading society in that regard...

[Babs]

It is a question of personal values and experiences, Babs.  I attended university in England and later worked in various parts of Europe.  My work required extensive travel and as a result I actually lived in the States a small percentage of my life.  That and existing policies with which I could never agree caused me to decide to leave.  I have no family and so whatever consequences might follow would be only mine. 

The truth is that I am extremely happy living here.  I find my view of the world and its people and its condition is broader and more encompassing because of that distance.

At any rate, I appreciate your last message that was a bit more understanding but the fact is that few artists or writers of that period were typical, content people.  It was a time of great turbulence and it brought out the best themes for their writings but the worst scenarios for their lives.  But you are right, I referred to them for their contributions, not their behavior.

Perhaps the choice of these three men was not the best but they represented those that produced the most lasting works.  Perhaps I should have listed Gertrude Stein, Paul Bowles, James Baldwin, Rita Hayworth, Sherwood Anderson, Djuna Barnes, Samuel Beckett, Kay Boyle, John Dos Passos, Lawrence Durrell, F. Scott Fitzgerald, Ford Madox Ford, H. D. (Hilda Doolittle), Henry Miller, Anaïs Nin, Ezra Pound, Alexander Trocchi, Christopher Logue, Patrick Bowles, Richard Seavers, Allen Ginsberg, Gregory Corso, William Burroughs, TS Eliot  and Josephine Baker but that would cover only a few that lived in Paris.

Being an expatriate is nothing new.  If there is to be any recovery from the damage done to the United States' international reputation, it will be done for the most part by good diplomats and reputable expatriates.

793517[/snapback]

I thought there was a catch to this...without actually asking you if you had family there. (I thought you said you did. ..oh, well.) Now that makes more sense to me. You are alone and not taking anyone else down this road. It sounds like you have thought this all out and have done a lot of soul searching. I am glad you have not asked anyone to share this experience because you would have those people on your conscience. It sounds like you have it 'altogether'. You have contributed to society and traveled and lived ouside the country more than inside our country. That's why I asked if you had Mexican heritage because only someone with heritage (which would make it easier) or someone who has lived outside the country (and traveled extensively) would be able to have a go at this.

I wish you luck. I have no beef with what you have said and it sounds like you may be successful.

Only when you look out the window, you are in the wrong place.

[Nxt2Hvn]

I like this guy

Cindy Sheehan Is No Hero

By Patrick Hurley

Aug. 16, 2005

Will someone, other than her soon to be ex-husband and most of her family members, (who obviously see through this publicity-starving woman), tell Cindy Sheehan that her brave son, Casey, is the hero here and NOT her!

Not since Ted Kennedy who acted as though he tried to "save" Mary Jo Kopechne's life has someone so pathetically misrepresented themselves in the media. Cindy Sheehan is not only a pawn being used by several ultra-left organizations, she is even worse, a WILLING pawn. This puts her IQ level at somewhere between Beavis and Butthead. At least, they were honorable. They understood their twisted logic. Cindy Sheehan does not understand hers. She needs to go home. It is over. The President has stated his position, "I am not going to meet with that WOMAN!" Translation: He is not going to meet with that WOMAN!

But, day after day, she stands there defiantly acting as if she is the one who deserves an audience with a President of the United States. How arrogant is THAT? She is surrounded by all the freaks telling her she is justified. The last time we saw this kind of rationale it was in the Nixon White House. You have to love people within their own universe telling other people within their own universe that they are the correct ones while the REAL universe outside their hateful and twisted world is shaking their heads in wonderment at their meaning of life....

For those of you who are steaming right now and ready to curse me up and down for putting down your Chia Protester, don't waste yoru time or mine. I am actually more on your side than you think. I am against the war in Iraq. I am as angry as you are at President Bush who I believe lied to us and I would love to see him being held accountable not only for his arrogant actions in invading the WRONG enemy that are resulting in the deaths of our young men and women daily, but also for his clueless strategy of rectifying one of the worst Presidential gaffes since Warren G. Harding did ANYTHING.

I supported George Bush and now I don't. I feel betrayed. I would love to see a national protest that would impreach him and I am a Conservative Republican. I am NOT, however, a follower of an imperial king. I know the difference.

I also know the difference between a phony and the genuine article. Neither President Bush nor Cindy Sheehan is in the latter category. Honestly, I wish they would meet at the bottom of a quicksand pit and duike it out. Then, we would not have to listen to either one of them fill the air with the gaseous rhetoric that would make Thomas Jefferson's blood curl. What is missing in our republic today is political greatness and articulate reasoning. It was those concepts at the foundation of our nation that helped us survive until today. Both of these charlatans would be laughed out of the Continental Congress. Cindy Sheehan is no Thomas Paine. George Bush is no George Washington. He is not even George Costanza. I cannot wait for the election of 2008, so I can start over with someone I respect in the voting booth.

In the meantime, I hope Cindy Sheehan goes home and realizes that her biggest contribution to America is not her endless carping about why she is not getting a SECOND interview with a President; but the fact that she bore a son who did more for his country in five minutes of ACTION than his mother ever will with a hundreds of hours of self-centered whining.

I like heroes. And, to paraphrase a Supreme Court Justice who made that comment about pornography, "I am not sure what a hero is, but I can tell one when I see it!"

And, I don't see one outside or inside Crawford, Texas, right now...

LINK/SOURCE

[sanchera1978]

Celumanz where do you go buy some painkillers that you dont have prescription for? All illegal drugs come from the black market. No he didnt go down the street to his local dealer according to him he got them from his maid. Either way he was involved in criminal activities they let him off easy and thats OK. addiction to painkillers really shouldnt something they need to prosecute on anyway. He got help for it and hopefully he is no longer on them.

You cant tell me people calling you wetback doesnt bother you man. It may not affect you too much and you may brush it off your shoulders but i know it bothers you. You wouldnt have any emotions if it didnt.

And I kind of understand your views on liberals now. You think that they are bad because liberals tend to let everyone do whatever they want. gay marriage, abortions, messed up music, violent tv shows and movies right. I can see how you have a point there. Our current culture is way out of wack with the norm. All you have to do is turn on the radio and listen to the music. back in the days songs were about falling in love and breaking up now its about money and ho's which really screws with kids heads. Our society is twisted thats for sure.

[iaapac]

There is much talk about one mother and as for me, I will never, like Rush Limbaugh and other media Bush-puppet idiots (including Sean Hannity), judge a grieving mother for what her grief leads her to do.

It might be wise, however, to take a realistic view at the "war" to this point. Here is the casualty list . . . .

Deaths Wounded

Since war began (3/19/03): 1856 1473

Since "Mission Accomplished" (5/1/03) 1719 1365

Since Capture of Saddam (12/13/03): 1389 1169

Since Handover (6/29/04): 990 840

Since Election (1/31/05): 424 367

American Wounded Official Estimated

Total Wounded: 1387 15000 - 42500

Latest Fatality August 15th, 2005

Others

Other Coalition Troops 194

What about Iraqui civilian casualties? Pentagon sources say, "We don't do body counts," which are other words for "We don't give a damn."

The study by US and Iraqi researchers, led by Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health in Baltimore, surveyed 1,000 households in 33 randomly chosen areas in Iraq. It found that the risk of violent death was 58 times higher in the period since the invasion, and that most of the victims were women and children.

"Making conservative assumptions, about 100,000 excess deaths have happened ... Violence accounted for most of the excess deaths, and air strikes from coalition forces accounted for most violent deaths," said Les Roberts of the Baltimore institution. The researchers excluded Fallujah, the most violent area of Iraq, from their results, which would have made the toll higher. But the finding that air strikes caused the highest casualties casts doubt on US claims that air attacks allow pinpoint precision

I am also posting this in the forum of Bush's sad "I'm sorry" routine with the suggestion that he relay that message to Iraqi mothers who also grieve.

[iaapac]

It is a question of personal values and experiences, Babs.  I attended university in England and later worked in various parts of Europe.  My work required extensive travel and as a result I actually lived in the States a small percentage of my life.  That and existing policies with which I could never agree caused me to decide to leave.  I have no family and so whatever consequences might follow would be only mine. 

The truth is that I am extremely happy living here.  I find my view of the world and its people and its condition is broader and more encompassing because of that distance.

At any rate, I appreciate your last message that was a bit more understanding but the fact is that few artists or writers of that period were typical, content people.  It was a time of great turbulence and it brought out the best themes for their writings but the worst scenarios for their lives.  But you are right, I referred to them for their contributions, not their behavior.

Perhaps the choice of these three men was not the best but they represented those that produced the most lasting works.  Perhaps I should have listed Gertrude Stein, Paul Bowles, James Baldwin, Rita Hayworth, Sherwood Anderson, Djuna Barnes, Samuel Beckett, Kay Boyle, John Dos Passos, Lawrence Durrell, F. Scott Fitzgerald, Ford Madox Ford, H. D. (Hilda Doolittle), Henry Miller, Anaïs Nin, Ezra Pound, Alexander Trocchi, Christopher Logue, Patrick Bowles, Richard Seavers, Allen Ginsberg, Gregory Corso, William Burroughs, TS Eliot  and Josephine Baker but that would cover only a few that lived in Paris.

Being an expatriate is nothing new.  If there is to be any recovery from the damage done to the United States' international reputation, it will be done for the most part by good diplomats and reputable expatriates.

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I thought there was a catch to this...without actually asking you if you had family there. (I thought you said you did. ..oh, well.) Now that makes more sense to me. You are alone and not taking anyone else down this road. It sounds like you have thought this all out and have done a lot of soul searching. I am glad you have not asked anyone to share this experience because you would have those people on your conscience. It sounds like you have it 'altogether'. You have contributed to society and traveled and lived ouside the country more than inside our country. That's why I asked if you had Mexican heritage because only someone with heritage (which would make it easier) or someone who has lived outside the country (and traveled extensively) would be able to have a go at this.

I wish you luck. I have no beef with what you have said and it sounds like you may be successful.

Only when you look out the window, you are in the wrong place.

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No, Babs, I never said I have family here. My wife died in 1994 but interestingly, living in Mexico was one of her great dreams and she was not Mexican. She was from Santa Margarita, Italy.

I do, however, appreciate your comments and it proves, doesn't it, that great minds do find their level of communication.

We must, however, for the sake of the tradition we have established, diagree on something. It will be that each morning, when I look out of my window, I look at the mountains, the trees, I hear the welcome of birds and I know that I am, at last, at home.

[Babs]

I am not sucked in. You wouldn't, I hope, recommend that the average joe leave his country and take up life in another country, would you? I questioned your move before I knew anything about you. I assumed you were an average joe. (that's why I was asking for background) And before anyone jumps on average joe, when I say average joe, I am not talking average intelligence. I am talking 'travel experience' and living outside his country for extended periods of time. The average person attempting to leave his country and live in a far-off land will bring immense damage upon himself (and his family). It screws with your psyche. I am saying it really messes you up_ scars you for a lifetime. Not to mention the guilt when you leave your native land and your family and all your responsibilities there.

Anyway that was my point and what I was getting at. Could you give me a definition of ex-patriot?

[Babs]

iaapac, you talk about taking a realistic view of war, but you, yourself, don't have one. All war has civilian casualties. And let's put the blame where it belongs. On terrorists. They hide out amongst civilians.

[sanchera1978]

You have a half point there Babs.. But what about when the army makes mistakes and bombs the wrong targets? Is that also the terrorist fault? War is such a horrible thing anyway you look at it so many innocent lives are lost becuase of the actions of a few.

[Babs]

You have a half point there Babs.. But what about when the army makes mistakes and bombs the wrong targets? Is that also the terrorist fault?  War is such a horrible thing anyway you look at it so many innocent lives are lost becuase of the actions of a few.

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You just said it, WHEN THE ARMY MAKES MISTAKES.

[gollo]

here's a nice example of what the "liberal" media thinks of people who question authority...

Cindy Sheehan

[Babs]

I am so sick of our media playing to the left. There is something wrong with our MEDIA! Eighty percent of our troops back our president and they are proud of what they do. The country backs the president and we are proud of our troops. But to hear it from the media we are on the brink of 'a

MARCH'.

[Kabutarian]

I am so sick of our media playing to the left.

The "Liberal Media" is practically nonexistant. Name a channel besides CNN that you would consider "Liberal".

There is something wrong with our MEDIA! Eighty percent of our troops back our president and they are proud of what they do.

... Are you aware of how badly treated liberals are in the military? I'm pretty sure I'd say I supported Bush too, if I knew it would keep my unit from turning on me (and if I werei n the army).

The country backs the president

I'm sorry, go look up the stats. Bush's approval ratings are quite low at the moment (Plus, the Republican party does not constitute "the country").

and we are proud of our troops.

Yeah, most people are, Liberal or Conservative. So what?

But to hear it from the media we are on the brink of 'a

MARCH'.    

o_O come again?

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[sanchera1978]

just wanted to see if you blamed the terrorist for that too... i am glad you at least recognize the army makes mistakes sometimes.

[Babs]

just wanted to see if you blamed the terrorist for that too... i am glad you at least recognize the army makes mistakes sometimes.

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...so you are going to kill the army for being human??? I can't stand the way you sound like you are 'for' the terrorists. Your line, "just wanted to see if you blamed the terrorists for that too' sounds like you are for them.