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Faeden

Soldier's mom protests near Bush's ranch

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Babs
Incidentally, Babs, in about six months more my application to be a Mexican citizen will be approved.  No, I will not be sorry in 30 years.  I am sorry about those who will be living in the U.S. for the next 30 years.  The only option presented to people like you is the one most prohibited and dangerous even though the Declaration of Independence declared, "That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it . . . "

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Sounds good to me. We can alter or abolish a destructive government, we don't have to let the government get too 'out of control' and take too many rights or privileges (to protect us from the terrorists). That's why Americans have guns, to make sure nothing like this happens. At a certain point, the military will step back and let the people reign, regardless of orders from on high.

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iaapac

I have absolutely no Mexican heritage, only a deep respect for a nation dedicated to peace and harmony amongst its people.

I would like to know what terrorists have come out of Iraq. Are a people defending their homeland terrorists. Then let us list George Washington among them.

I abandoned nothing. I served my country and did all I could to make a difference. It tecame impossible.

Do you think all your pro-administration words will change the direction of the United States one centimeter? No. And when there remains no vestige of your civil rights in a nation disregarded by the rest of the world, then tell me that the foresight to leave for my own advantage was not intelligent. I did not try to be noble, I had no reason to. But I was faced with the fact that I could change nothing and so the alternative was to change myself to another place where I could find personal happiness and contentment. I have done that and have no apologies for it.

The ruin of America will not be because of me or the other three million expatriates who have left for the same reasons I have. The ruin will come because of people like you who choose to be blind to what is happening and are incapable of viewing the disastrous direction America has taken.

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iaapac
One of the beauties of being an expatriate is that it is no longer important what people think or what opinions they have about your decision to live elsewhere.  Even so, the stereotype image of Mexico has kept it free from an invasion of Americans and I am grateful for that.

First of all, the economy is not the disaster U.S. politicians like people to believe.  I see more new commercial construction here than in the U.S.  I know many cities here that have a better economy than say, Detroit or some of the steel cities in Indiana and Pennsylvania.  New car sales are at a respectable level here and restaurants are full.

What troubles Mexico is the fact that its wealth is placed in 20% of its population and 80% are poor.  There are efforts to correct that with a system of an almost-free college education and high levels of training in technology fields.  Already some changes can be seen.

As for me, I did my military service long ago so that wasn’t an issue.  I had lost faith in the government years before and started investing in foreign markets.  Increasing dividends while living in a much cheaper environment were a perfect combination.  And please don’t assert that my move was based on the economic advantages.  It wasn’t.  It was only that if you want to leave the U.S. and live in another nation, you need to plan on how you will survive.  That was my plan.

I saw the U.S. taking disastrous directions in regard to its economy.  The Clinton surplus was not totally expended because of 9/11, that’s bull.  But to revert the nation to a war economy while the people are slowly waking up to the fact that the war is unjust and unwarranted creates a conflict that will soon find its level of crisis. 

I travelled extensively and I could see the image of the United States and Americans diminish in almost all nations.  We were the aggressors who invaded nations that had not provoked attack in any form and did it while ignoring the collective voice of other nations within the world community.

I could see the decline of education, a growing poverty level, a much lower quality of life, higher levels of new business failures, escalating divorce rates, skyrocketing average debt levels per family, etc.  These are all symptoms of a nation in trouble and it exists as a subject of a government that forms no programs to resolve them.  A government that is drowning in self interests to the point that the best economic experts predict economic collapse within ten years.

I could not change anything.  Nor can you.  Given that situation, if someone wants quality of life, a nation dedicated to peace, a culture feeding upon family unity and a new direction for your personal existence,  being an expatriate is the only answer.

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There is so much here I don't know where to start. blink.gif First off: are you of Mexican delineage or have in-law relatives who are Mexican? Were you born and raised in the U.S. and do you have Mexican heritage?

Leaving your country because of problems seems to be 'abandonment of ship' to me. And if you really wanted to leave the country you would have gone far and wide, not slip down to Mexico where you can jump, skip and be in the U.S. as soon as you cross that line. You aren't far, and therefore the psychological estrangement you would feel is much lessened...say as if you were in Germany. cool.gif So, I don't really see you sacrificing that much by leaving hearth and home. You are still set up psychologically and don't have to suffer much homesickness or loss of family, as you said that even they are there with you.

Got to go, but I'd like to talk more about this subject. I totally disagree with you on the Iraq war and 911. You have a liberal view. We have to stay in Iraq as long as the terrorists do. Pure and simple. Blame the terrorists. ph34r.gif We have the war contained, and the terrorists are popping out all over. The Iraqis' can't handle all of these guys and if we left the terrorists would begin their take-over. You know... of the world. ph34r.gif

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Babs,

Let me give you a quick lesson in immigration laws. Mexicans can have dual citizenships through an agreement between the United States and Mexico. Americans cannot. It is necessary to renounce your United States citizenship and immediately apply for Mexican citizenship. During the time of that process, you cannot leave Mexico and after you cannot enter the United States.

Now tell me how it is convenient for me to be in Mexico? I miss nothing and want nothing. I gave all I owed and asked for nothing from the United States.

I lived in Italy and Honduras before coming to Mexico and my choice was not because of its proximity to the United States, it was because Mexico offered more business opportunities and a more stable social structure.

I find it strange that someone so ardent in defense of the civil rights of America should criticize someone for exercisng them.

In spite of all this, I remain mystified that you could believe that "terrorist" in Iraq have been a threat to the United States. I would love to see the slightest evidence of this point.

The one thing that you have answered for me . . . . a point that has troubled me for months . . . . is if there were really people in the United States who would want to re-elect George Bush. Thanks to you I know now that they truly exist.

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joc
The one thing that you have answered for me . . . . a point that has troubled me for months . . . . is if there were really people in the United States who would want to re-elect George Bush. Thanks to you I know now that they truly exist.

Bab's and I are just a couple of a group of Americans known otherwise as:

The Majority

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iaapac
The one thing that you have answered for me . . . . a point that has troubled me for months . . . . is if there were really people in the United States who would want to re-elect George Bush. Thanks to you I know now that they truly exist.

Bab's and I are just a couple of a group of Americans known otherwise as:

The Majority

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That's what is so damned frightening to the rest of the world.

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joc
That's what is so damned frightening to the rest of the world.

Islamic Extremists hijacking airliners, killing the crew, and slamming them into skyscraper buildings with thousands of innocent people inside is what you should be frightened of. thumbsup.gif

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iaapac

That's not the point. The point is, how many of them were from Iraq? I'll answer for you . . . . zero.

Everyone shares the same feelings about the attack on WTC. We all mourned and were in shock and nothing changes that.

But the reactions to that attack were as senseless as the attack itself. Do you really think Afghanistan is better off now than before the U.S. invasion? Outside of Kabul everything remains as it was. The Taliban is in control and women are still subjugated.

Did Iraq have a documented Al-Queda connection? Not to this moment. Is there evidence that Iraq participated in any form in the WTC attack? Absolutely not. Was Saddam a dictator? Yes, but so were Kim Jong Il of North Korea, Than Shwe of Burma, Hu Jintao of China, Robert Mugabe of Zimbabwe, Crown Prince Abdullah, Saudi Arabia (good pal of George Bush and Saudi Arabia is where 11 of the WTC attackers were from so where's the invasion of Saudi?) and let's not forget Teodoro Obiang Nguema of Equatorial Guinea, Omar Al-Bashir of Sudan, Saparmurat Niyazov of Turkmenistan and others who have crimes against humanity of such proportions that Saddam Hussein would appear like an innocent babe.

Are these people the ones who attacked the WTC? You're damned right that some of them were. Is there evidence that Hussein was one of them? Hell, no.

So before telling what we should really fear, please face the realities of this world and the violations this administration is making against it. Because of the irresponsible, flagrant disregard for world opinion and the bloodthirsty "he tried to kill my daddy," mentality, the status of the United States and all of its people has fallen to the lowest point in its history.

If this is service to your nation, I differ with you. If killing 30,000 innocent civilians is to be retribution for acts of terrorism they never committed, then where is this great American sense of justice? If you want to teach terrorism a lesson, invade Saudi Arabia! But you'll have to kill a few Bush cronies, the same people who are given Secret Service protection at their embassy in Washington . . . . the only embassy with that privilege.

If we are to analyze this situation mutually, let's tie the facts together. Iraq committed NO act of terrorism against the United States. That is the point.

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joc
But the reactions to that attack were as senseless as the attack itself. Do you really think Afghanistan is better off now than before the U.S. invasion? Outside of Kabul everything remains as it was. The Taliban is in control and women are still subjugated.

...and when did you visit Afghanistan?

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iaapac

I don't have to visit, I am able to read the weekly United Nations reports that come from committee visits and analysis reports. I suggest that you do the same.

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joc
I don't have to visit, I am able to read the weekly United Nations reports that come from committee visits and analysis reports. I suggest that you do the same.

I trust the United Nations about as much as I trust the Associated Press. Which, by the way, leads us back to the topic at hand...

...The AP would have us believe that there is this 'Anti-War Movement' going on in America and they would like for us to believe that it is in response to what Americans believe is The Next and Ongoing Vietnam....Iraq. 'Tis a crock.

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iaapac

So let me get this straight, joc . . . . you support the war in Iraq but are against the United Nations?

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twpdyp

Hell I support the war and will not support that monument to stupidity the U.N.

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iaapac

And it appears that joc would agree with you . . . . but by your own admission you are saying that the war is unfounded. If you read early accounts of the "reasons" Bush gave for the invasion, it was the non-compliance of Iraq with the arms inspectors from where? The UN. So Bush and those who support him and his insanities want now to dismiss the U.N. as "stupid" and "untrustworthy" but find the convenience of using them as a reason to initiate the invasion.

It is a war founded upon personal agendas and has no justification in fact. To denounce the U.N. and support this illegal invasion shows an impressive unity with Bush's agenda and that's perhaps a signal of the great brainwashing job that has been done.

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Faeden

Joc

I trust the United Nations about as much as I trust the Associated Press. Which, by the way, leads us back to the topic at hand...

...The AP would have us believe that there is this 'Anti-War Movement' going on in America and they would like for us to believe that it is in response to what Americans believe is The Next and Ongoing Vietnam....Iraq. 'Tis a crock.

So you do not trust the press, yet you support Bush and the war, may I ask if you do not trust the press how you form your opinions on the war and bush? Do you get your information from another source other than the associated press? Or do you trust other media outputs that are not conspiring against you?

...and when did you visit Afghanistan?

And may I ask you when did you visit Afghanistan? Have you ever left the U.S, either physically or intellectually?

All the best

Faeden

Edited by Faeden

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joc
Do you get your information from another source other than the associated press? Or do you trust other media outputs that are not conspiring against you?

I get most of my news from listening to Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Fox News and other organizations who are searching for the 'actual truth' . The AP, CBS, ABC, NBC, CNN, The New York Times, etc. all have an agenda. The destruction of Bush's presidency at all costs.

And may I ask you when did you visit Afghanistan? Have you ever left the U.S, either physically or intellectually?

Never been there. I have been outside of the US ...Mexico a couple of times.

I also listen to our soldiers who have been there and are there and report completely differently the successes and failures than do the Media. If you haven't figured out yet that the Media has an agenda...don't question my intellect...consider the validity of your own.

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Mekorig

"Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Fox News" rolleyes.gifrolleyes.gifrolleyes.gif

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Babs
I have absolutely no Mexican heritage, only a deep respect for a nation dedicated to peace and harmony amongst its people.

I would like to know what terrorists have come out of Iraq.  Are a people defending their homeland terrorists.  Then let us list George Washington among them.

I abandoned nothing.  I served my country and did all I could to make a difference.  It tecame impossible. 

Do you think all your pro-administration words will change the direction of the United States one centimeter?  No.  And when there remains no vestige of your civil rights in a nation disregarded by the rest of the world, then tell me that the foresight to leave for my own advantage was not intelligent.  I did not try to be noble, I had no reason to.  But I was faced with the fact that I could change nothing and so the alternative was to change myself to another place where I could find personal happiness and contentment.  I have done that and have no apologies for it.

The ruin of America will not be because of me or the other three million expatriates who have left for the same reasons I have.  The ruin will come because of people like you who choose to be blind to what is happening and are incapable of viewing the disastrous direction America has taken.

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I see you as jumping ship. Are you a fairweather friend too? And you said that Mexicans can have dual citizenship, but Americans cannot, does that mean you can't ever come back and be a citizen of the U.S.? ...or even visit?

You are saying you can't be a citizen, but that doesn't stop you from hopping the border and coming back here to feel good, now and again. cool.gif That's my point. You haven't sacrificed the ultimate, by leaving your homeland for a faraway country, forever. You can have your cake and eat it, too. And you act like you are somehow noble or nobler than the rest of us.

Now another thing: you giving up your citizenship, and the fact that a Mexican doesn't have to, makes me not want you in this country. You should always stay with your country of origin and try to help your country... on any level you can. Even if it is taking out the garbage. sad.gif Search your soul. Would you want somebody in your household to give up on you or to skip out when the going got rough?

What would have happened to our forefathers if they had given up? disgust.gif

Edited by Babs

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iaapac

You talk about the conditions created by this idiot you idolize as being something temporary that can be handled like "taking out the garbage." The debts he has created will not be paid by your great-great grandchildren. The government this lunatic heads is borrowing 20 million dollars a day from the very nations you criticize and the same nations with which the U.S. is supposed to compete in industry. The building boom in the United States is sponsored by Japan, for Godssake!

You speak as if leaving the U.S. is a sacrifice. It is not. Each person has the personal responsibility of doing what is best for himself when all other avenues of improving the conditions of his nation have failed.

It is of no difference to me or anyone else what you want or who you want in your nation. Anyone who wants George Bush has to have some pretty defective value judgements and thus dilutes the quality of their opinions.

By being an expatriate, I join the ranks of James Joyce, Picasso, Ernest Hemmingway . . . . these were people who were "fair weather friends?" They contributed more to humanity than you ever will if reincarnation is true.

And "What would have happened to our forefathers if they had given up?" Again, I wish you would learn something about American history before making these shallow arguments. A vast portion of the colonist population, sometimes estimated as high as 40% either opposed the revolution or returned to England.

"Nothing is hard and set, so there are exceptions to the basic make-up of those who chose to remain loyal to the British Crown. However, many were successful merchants, lawyers, or held a political office of some sort for the British government. Their religious persuasion tended to be Anglican (The Church of England), although there were many exceptions to this. British sympathies were strong in Pennsylvania, South Carolina, and North Carolina. They were strongest, however, in New York, New Jersey, and Georgia. They were least likely to be found in Massachusetts, Virginia, Maryland, and Connecticut. Large landowners of every socio-economic strata tended to feel it was in their best interest to be sympathetic to the Crown.

Some Loyalists immediately left for England, where they rallied King George III's subjects for their cause. Others went to Canada. But many, perhaps most, remained in America. Some fought their neighbors or agitated local Indians against the Americans. Others did little to support the troops who fought for their cause, often from fear that their property would be confiscated and sold." On the Trail of United Empire Loyalists

Tracing Your American Revolutionary War Ancestry

1775 - 1783

By Margaret Smith

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Babs

iaapac wrote: "In spite of all this, I remain mystified that you could believe that "terrorist" in Iraq have been a threat to the United States. I would love to see the slightest evidence of this point".

O MY GOD! laugh.gif This is ludicrous. Evidence? They are not a threat ! rolleyes.gif I guess our twin towers destructing, with over 3000 people, pulverized, isn't a concern for you. blink.gif Well I guess not, you live in Mexico!

Oh, yeah, I see we should forget about the terrorists in Iraq geek.gif and also we should have forgotten about the terrorists in Afghanistan too (after the big hit) cool.gif ... .......And do what? Sit around knitting baby booties?

Hey, I see that as a great idea... why didn't our administration think of that blush.gif .......we'd all be sitting pretty safe right now.

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iaapac
iaapac wrote: "In spite of all this, I remain mystified that you could believe that "terrorist" in Iraq have been a threat to the United States. I would love to see the slightest evidence of this point".

O MY GOD! laugh.gif This is ludicrous. Evidence? They are not a threat ! rolleyes.gif  I guess our twin towers destructing, with over 3000 people, pulverized, isn't a concern for you. blink.gif  Well I guess not, you live in Mexico!

Since you don't seem capable of understanding the point, let me spell it out for you.  The question clearly asks "that "terrorist" in Iraq have been a threat to the United States."  IRAQ, understand?  IRAQ.  Not one Iraqui had anything to do with the destruction of the WTC, Babs.  There is no way you can invent that they did.  Not even governmental records indicate that Iraq was involved!

Oh, yeah, I see we should forget about the terrorists in Iraq geek.gif  and also we should have forgotten about the terrorists in Afghanistan too (after the big hit) cool.gif ... .......And do what? Sit around knitting baby booties?

Again, WHAT terrorists in Iraq????  It was believed that bin Laden fled to Afghanistan, but having someone hide in a nation does not make all of its citizens terrorists.  Even today, we are not sure if the Afghanistan connection was ever true or not?  Bin Laden has never been captured and probably never will be.  If he is captured it will end the invented "War on Terror" and put an end to Bush's expansionist ideas.

It's obvious that anyone who believes Fox News, Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity are unbiased reporters seeking the truth is incapable of reasonable argument.

Hey, I see that as a great idea... why didn't our administration think of that blush.gif .......we'd all be sitting pretty safe right now.

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Faeden

Joc I do not trust any media source completely. I do not listen to the politics, just the facts that I can see and what common sense tells me, and common sense tells me that blowing people up terrorises people, hence those doing it being terrorists, that applies to Muslims and American and the British. Why is killing people in Iraq no more terrorising than killing people in the U.S? Because you only care about your own interests and that YOU are safe that is why. I know it might be hard for you to understand being your programmed to believe Americans are superior to everyone else, but Muslims have families and are human beings too. Innocent Iraqi people have just as much right not to be killed as you do Joc.

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morpheas

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iaapac

Thank you, Morpheus. It is one thing to be an American and another to be a thinking American. And in the end, when all else fails, there remains the basic human right to be an ex-American.

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iaapac

Thank you, Morpheus. It is one thing to be an American and another to be a thinking American. And in the end, when all else fails, there remains the basic human right to be an ex-American.

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joc
I know it might be hard for you to understand being your programmed to believe Americans are superior to everyone else, but Muslims have families and are human beings too. Innocent Iraqi people have just as much right not to be killed as you do Joc.

I don't think Americans are superior to everyone else (well, maybe the French tongue.gif )

Terrorists spread terror and they do so by targeting innocent victims, women, children, the elderly, whoever, where ever, when ever they can.

In any war there are going to be innocent casualties. But the US nor any of the Allies are targeting innocent bystanders. Casualties you didn't want are part of any conflict.

So, how you can equate Terrorism with Fighting Terrorism is beyond me.

  "Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Fox News"  rolleyes.gif  rolleyes.gif  rolleyes.gif

It is interesting that if you turn on CBS evening news, you get the same exact stories as ABC and NBC with the same exact spin. If you miss the network news...turn on CNN where you will get the same stories with the same spin as the network news. If your television was broken, just pick up the New York Times and read the same stories with the same exact spin...AP, NewsWeek, Time, it doesn't matter what you pick up or what you watch...the main stream media portrays the same stories in the same exact manner with the same exact Democrat talking points. If that is all you see, then you will walk away with a particular point of view that the Elite Media want you to have. But there is so much more going on than the 'spin' of the media. There is truth out there and some search for and find it. You roll your eyes but have you ever even listened to Rush for more than a soundbite?

Edited by joc

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