4dplane Posted August 7, 2005 #1 Share Posted August 7, 2005 In light of America’s new take on torture and its definition of such an act, I ask all of you, where do you stand when it comes to torture? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talon Posted August 7, 2005 #2 Share Posted August 7, 2005 I'm all for torturing people for information, like if you need to find the rest of their cell and they refuse to tell you. But currently the American's seem to just be torturing people because they find it fun with no interest of finding information whatsoever. Which is sick, and only gives the terrorists a propoganda victory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLikeness Posted August 7, 2005 #3 Share Posted August 7, 2005 torture-shmwarture Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barnacle Battlefront Posted August 7, 2005 #4 Share Posted August 7, 2005 i don't think torture should be used. i don't think it's right to use violence against anyone although, they could always make them watch big brother, 24/7. that would be enough to make anyone talk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megalomania Posted August 7, 2005 #5 Share Posted August 7, 2005 "Bogan Greg, get your 'Hotdog' in the diary room immediately" I hate big brother.... And trading Logan for Bogan seems to entertain me... I don't know, it depends what kind of torture, I'm sure after being tickled for a few days the terrorists would tell us what's up... I'm sure the terrorists are very sensitive to tickling Pain torture..... I don't think so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faeden Posted August 7, 2005 #6 Share Posted August 7, 2005 There is no greater evil on this planet than torture, so I voted for never. I did a post about American torture yesterday, where no one has given there opinion on, you can find it HERE Anyone that supports torture is exactly the same as those that carry it out in my opinion. All the best Faeden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thanato Posted August 7, 2005 #7 Share Posted August 7, 2005 Torture is unreliable, very unreliable. Sure you might get some useful info every know and again, but most people will just make stuff up to stop being tortured. ~Thanato Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seraphina Posted August 7, 2005 #8 Share Posted August 7, 2005 I believe torture is a reasonable solution to extracting information...but there's no way of knowing for certain if that information is true or not. The church spent thousands of years extracting false confessions or accusations out of people through torture... If you need information out of someone, and you plan to use torture, you have to be very specific about what you ask...for example "where is the bomb?", then by all means, hook up some electrodes to his testicles. However, something such as "who are your partners?" is a little more of a grey area....he's quite likely to just shout out any name that comes to mind to make you stop. Certainly, torture shouldn't be used in the manner it appears to be used by some of the coalition troops at the moment...it's a tool of war, not some kind of twisted recreation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekorig Posted August 7, 2005 #9 Share Posted August 7, 2005 I aprovedd whit tow condition: Oly in cases of desperates moents, and that if you torture,dont use the white paladin of occident public image to the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talon Posted August 7, 2005 #10 Share Posted August 7, 2005 (edited) Anyone that supports torture is exactly the same as those that carry it out in my opinion. Thats utter bleeding heart rubbish. If you capture a member of a terrorist cell and he refuses to give you the whereabouts of the other members and what they plan to blow up then you have the right to get the information no matter the means. If you don't, then you're actions will be what helped them kill all those who die in their next attack. Pascifism is a joke ideology followed by dreamers who don't seem to understand that there are people in this world who will kill them and everyone they care about, and we have a right to defend ourselves. Edited August 7, 2005 by Talon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Skeptic Eric Raven Posted August 7, 2005 #11 Share Posted August 7, 2005 Good post talon. Torture can be unreliable, but sometimes it might be necessary to save thousands of lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talon Posted August 7, 2005 #12 Share Posted August 7, 2005 Physical torture doesn't always work, but sensory tortures such as sleep debrivation and making them loose concepts on time (i.e. put them in a white room for long enough they don't know day from night) is actually got a very high success rate as it simply breaks people's will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
girty1600 Posted August 7, 2005 #13 Share Posted August 7, 2005 Physical torture doesn't always work, but sensory tortures such as sleep debrivation and making them loose concepts on time (i.e. put them in a white room for long enough they don't know day from night) is actually got a very high success rate as it simply breaks people's will. 777877[/snapback] I would rather see sensory torture used rather than physical torture in most circumstances. As it was mentioned before, if there's a bomb about to go off and only the guy strapped to the chair knows where; its time for action. In that case any means should be used to extract the information needed to save hundreds, thousands or even millions of people targeted by said bomb. If it ever gets to that point then to hell with their human rights. What about the human rights of the people going to work or school that day in that location. I didn't vote because not enough information was given regarding the circumstances detailing who is being tortured and why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faeden Posted August 7, 2005 #14 Share Posted August 7, 2005 Hi Talon Well I would rather support stupid ideologies than murder and torture to be perfectly honest with you. I am fully aware that people murder and kill, but then that is just my point, I do not support it in any shape of form. I am aware that we shall never live in a utopian society, but if everyone had your views Talon we would be a hellish society, even more than we are now. In fact its getting worse because people are starting to think more like yourself, its going backwards rather than forwards. Violence and torture hasn’t worked since the dawn of man and its not going to work now. All the best Faeden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Skeptic Eric Raven Posted August 7, 2005 #15 Share Posted August 7, 2005 Sensory deprivation is not physical torture. Lets do a hypothetical but based on a true situation. A man is in custody, he has been sexually toruturing and killing children. He has one hidden right now, but says he will not tell where the 5 year old is. So, do we just tell the parents, "sorry but your child will die because this guy will not talk." What do you do in that situation?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seraphina Posted August 7, 2005 #16 Share Posted August 7, 2005 but if everyone had your views Talon we would be a hellish society The problem, Faeden, isn't what we think...it's what our enemies think. Did you know that one of the London bombers detonated his bomb when he was standing next to a woman holding a baby? We're not fighting people...we're fighting evil. And until we treat them like evil, and react to them like evil, then we're never going to get anything done about them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faeden Posted August 7, 2005 #17 Share Posted August 7, 2005 (edited) Hi Seraphina The problem, Faeden, isn't what we think...it's what our enemies think. Did you know that one of the London bombers detonated his bomb when he was standing next to a woman holding a baby? I know they are evil, but so is anyone that kills. Every army and government in the world has killed a baby, thousands in fact. Anyone who kills is evil in my book full stop. Instead of focusing on revenge and arguing who is right and who is wrong why do not they just all stop for one minute and think, think how this happened in the first place, and how they can make it right. We're not fighting people...we're fighting evil. And until we treat them like evil, and react to them like evil, then we're never going to get anything done about them. No we are being attacked by evil people, but they are doing evil to us, because we did evil to them, and now we are going to do more evil to them, it never stops, no one will ever win. Humanity needs to learn a whole knew way of thinking, and learn a new psyche if its going to progress, if we do not then its just going to be the same old crap over and over again. All the best Faeden Edited August 7, 2005 by Faeden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talon Posted August 7, 2005 #18 Share Posted August 7, 2005 (edited) but if everyone had your views Talon we would be a hellish society Why? Because in my society we don't pay £100,000 a year in welfare to serial paedophiles? Because in my society I don't concern myself with the rights of murderers when their terrorist friends are planning to kill more of my people? Because in my society men like Abu Hamza would be have never been allowed to have spent the last 5 years telling his followers to out and kill non-Muslims? Because in my society 2 years is not considered a sane sentence for someone who breaks into houses and rapes children in their own beds? Because in my society lunatics who shoot babies with air pistols from the comfort of their living room window would not get off with just their gun confiscated? Because in my society fundamentalist clerics who publicly support acts of terror would not be allowed the financial backing of human-rights group Liberty to his legal costs against deportation? Because in my society I would protect the public by locking up criminals for far longer durations that your bleeding heart friends would? Because in my society 10-year olds who murder babies and leave their bodies to rot on a railway track do not get a better education that those outside their bars? Because in my society men who invite two young girls who trust him into his house before drowing them in his bath, are not allowed to sell his story to the media for profit? Because in my society I will not allow known criminals to walk free because of technicalities in the law? Because in my society old men who, fearing for their life, shoot a burglar breaking down the front door, do not go to jail? Because in my society a Ned who attacks a terrified pensioner for her purse, can not then sue her if she hits him with her cane? Because in my society I do not allow people to come on TV after 120 Russian children have just been murdered in their school and urge UK Muslims to go out and do the same? Because in my society after 52 people have just been blown up by terrorists while on their way to work, I do not give asylum to a fanatic the US has kicked out only 2 days later? Because in my society I actually care enough about my people to bloody my own hands and do what needs to be done to so they can sleep safe at night, while bleeding heart ilk like you sit stand outside the jails demanding the human rights of murders, paedophiles, terrorists and other sub-human filth who didn't give a damn about the rights of their victims. Edited August 7, 2005 by Talon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Posted August 7, 2005 #19 Share Posted August 7, 2005 Sensory deprivation is not physical torture. Lets do a hypothetical but based on a true situation. A man is in custody, he has been sexually toruturing and killing children. He has one hidden right now, but says he will not tell where the 5 year old is. So, do we just tell the parents, "sorry but your child will die because this guy will not talk." What do you do in that situation?? 777971[/snapback] This was on 'Law and Order' SVU only yesterday night. Well what they did was to simply violate the criminal’s rights, pump him full of drugs and let the truth find its way out. (however there was an interesting twist that he was in fact the victim, as the mental hospital he lived in had purposefully stopped giving him his meds to cover up a murder…) ok I’ll stop now – but was a good episode! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Skeptic Eric Raven Posted August 7, 2005 #20 Share Posted August 7, 2005 Pacifism just doesn't work today. There is no utopia. Sometimes we have to do bad things to people that did bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Skeptic Eric Raven Posted August 7, 2005 #21 Share Posted August 7, 2005 Sensory deprivation is not physical torture. Lets do a hypothetical but based on a true situation. A man is in custody, he has been sexually toruturing and killing children. He has one hidden right now, but says he will not tell where the 5 year old is. So, do we just tell the parents, "sorry but your child will die because this guy will not talk." What do you do in that situation?? 777971[/snapback] This was on 'Law and Order' SVU only yesterday night. Well what they did was to simply violate the criminal’s rights, pump him full of drugs and let the truth find its way out. (however there was an interesting twist that he was in fact the victim, as the mental hospital he lived in had purposefully stopped giving him his meds to cover up a murder…) ok I’ll stop now – but was a good episode! 778006[/snapback] That was loosely based on a true story. In the real one they beat the crap out of the guy and were able to find the child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faeden Posted August 7, 2005 #22 Share Posted August 7, 2005 (edited) Hi Talon You do like your propaganda dont you lol I was talking about how I do not agree with violence, I was not saying I do not think that nothing should be done about all of them things you bring up. I am saying I do not agree with violence, all them things you stated have nothing to do with me saying I disagree with violence, just because I do not like killing and violence doesn’t mean I do think that all of them things should go unpunished. On the Islamic extremist thing I would have deported them years ago, in fact id throw out all religious extremists from my county, including Christian ones because religious extremism is the cause of most of the worlds evil ironically. Again I agree all them things are terrible, but my belief still stands, violence never solves anything in the long run. All the best Faeden Edited August 7, 2005 by Faeden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
__Kratos__ Posted August 7, 2005 #23 Share Posted August 7, 2005 (edited) Talon: To many bleeding hearts in this world... "You're welcome to believe that the world is a nice, logical, rational, safe place... You'll be wrong, but that hasn't stopped anyone else who thinks the same way." edit: forgot the other stupid end tag... lol Edited August 7, 2005 by __Kratos__ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talon Posted August 7, 2005 #24 Share Posted August 7, 2005 I was talking about how I do not agree with violence, I was not saying I do not think that nothing should be done about all of them things you bring up. I am saying I do not agree with violence, all them things you stated have nothing to do with me saying I disagree with violence, just because I do not like killing and violence doesn’t mean I do think that all of them things should unpunished. Yet everything I posted is based on actual events happening in this 'non-hellish society? You have a rather one dimensional view of the world. Fine you don't like violence, I don't care, be a pacifist. But your narrow-minded attitude towards those who know it unfortunately is only method of stopping crime is terrifying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faeden Posted August 7, 2005 #25 Share Posted August 7, 2005 You are confused, I never said it was a non hellish society, I said it will become a hellish society if people all thought like your self. I think we live in a good society as a whole, but that is changing because of violence done by all sides. What is it you do not understand about I do not agree with violence?. I have a great and wide understanding of the world, I take notice of it like a hawk, its why I have the views I do, because I can see both sides of the argument and understand them, and I can see why people go so wrong. There is actually a simple solution, but many people are far to blinded by hate and anger and fear that they just cant see it. You can still get results and punish people and stop people from harming others by non violence means. I might be a pacifist that lives in a fantasy world, but I like being in my winter fairy wonderland, its better than being in one that lives with killing as a righteous moral. Now I am of to play with Tinkerbell she needs her midnight bath...... All the best Faeden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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