Tell us or Else!

[Seraphina]

Faeden, your objection to violence goes well beyond things such as terrorism...as illustrated by the PM I sent you, that I will be very interested to read the reply to

[Subtemperate]

Not that im disagreeing but...

Fine you don't like violence, I don't care, be a pacifist. But your narrow-minded attitude towards those who know it unfortunately is only method of stopping crime is terrifying.

Could you show me a place that is stricter in its treatment of criminal's in such a way, that is now a wondeful place to live?

[Talon]

What is it you do not understand about I do not agree with violence?

Oh I understand perfectly you don't agree with violence, its you who doesn't understand, my objection is your narrow minded claim that non-pacifists who revert to violence to defend themselves are no better.

I as I said, be a pacifist turn a blind eye and let those willing to protect our society do it. You needn't be involved.

[Talon]

Could you show me a place that is stricter in its treatment of criminal's in such a way, that is now a wondeful place to live?

Nope, cause all the west is gone soft. I many ways we asked for what we're getting since we still insist in giving them more rights than their victims.

[Faeden]

What is it you do not understand about I do not agree with violence?

Oh I understand perfectly you don't agree with violence, its you who doesn't understand, my objection is your narrow minded claim that non-pacifists who revert to violence to defend themselves are no better.

I as I said, be a pacifist turn a blind eye and let those willing to protect our society do it. You needn't be involved.

778073[/snapback]

I do not turn a blind eye, ill repeat, I think they should be punished, taken out of society, not killed.

You know in the states where the death penalty is law, in the states that have the death penalty also have the highest murder rates, ironic isn’t it...... I would laugh at the irony, but its not a laughing matter. Killing criminals doesn’t work for them does it?

All the best

Faeden

[The Skeptic Eric Raven]

Killing murderers is justice for the families of the slain.

Edited August 7, 2005 by ericraven2003

[Commander CMG]

I am all for Torture and it is far more complex than most people think and when done correctly it is a very effective in extracking information with guarenteed results.

Torture is also used by many to inflict a level pain on an individual with no intentions of extracting information but for the sole purpose of showing who is in charge.

[4dplane]

We're not fighting people...we're fighting evil. And until we treat them like evil, and react to them like evil, then we're never going to get anything done about them.

777978[/snapback]

This evil you speak of has always been around, it’s called man. I believe the problem is exactly what you are promoting Seraphina, the idea that an enemy is evil which makes him obsolete. To explain: there are always two sides to a coin, people fight for a reason, and there are reasons why people are willing to butcher Men, Woman, and Children. It is because when anyone or group is pushed up against a wall and forced to stay there and starve to death, they will fight with all they have. Jihad!

I feel the US is falling to the level of the Islamic extremist by bring torture back to its roots (Mid-Evil England).

WWII almost pushed the world to a point of no return. After such an incident did not happen, the UN created worldwide rules as to what was acceptable torture – NONE!

On December 10, 1948 the Universal Declaration of Human Rights was adopted by the United Nations General Assembly. Article 5 states "No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment".

Source

We have seen torture; we have used torture, to continue on only leads to the same ending – the slaughter of millions. It is not morally correct or good to torture.

"You're welcome to believe that the world is a nice, logical, rational, safe place... You'll be wrong, but that hasn't stopped anyone else who thinks the same way."

True, the world is none of these things (nice, logical, rational, safe), but bring torture back into play after it has been removed (on paper of course but still…) is just going backwards. The world is a better place because the so called “civilized world” had said NO to torture, publicly; bring it back into popular belief and acceptance only lessens our human integrity.

Killing murderers is justice for the families of the slain.

Ok – how about, Killing murderers is justice to the country of the slain - After which we pay $12.99 to see the lethal injection on Pay-Per View so we all can be justified.

I am all for Torture and it is far more complex than most people think and when done correctly it is a very effective in extracking information with guarenteed results.

778109[/snapback]

And thank God you are on our side for all that you do is good!

No we are being attacked by evil people, but they are doing evil to us, because we did evil to them, and now we are going to do more evil to them, it never stops, no one will ever win. Humanity needs to learn a whole knew way of thinking, and learn a new psyche if its going to progress, if we do not then its just going to be the same old crap over and over again.

Bleeding heart - sure! However, were all labeled, doesn’t mean it’s a bad thing!

Anyone that supports torture is exactly the same as those that carry it out in my opinion.

Thats utter bleeding heart rubbish. If you capture a member of a terrorist cell and he refuses to give you the whereabouts of the other members and what they plan to blow up then you have the right to get the information no matter the means. If you don't, then you're actions will be what helped them kill all those who die in their next attack.

Pascifism is a joke ideology followed by dreamers who don't seem to understand that there are people in this world who will kill them and everyone they care about, and we have a right to defend ourselves.

777808[/snapback]

One way to fight for ones country is to learn to die for what is needed (what is needed?); thus, I would rather be killed by a terrorist than give up my rights, torture people in the name of safety and spend hundreds of billions of dollars on a war that means NOTHING in the name of good!

Edited August 8, 2005 by 4dplane

[Seraphina]

Great, another one

4dplane, I would have far more ease looking at myself in the mirror after brutally torturing a terrorist in order to find the location of a bomb he and his buddies had planted, and thus saved the lives of a great many innocent people, than I would knowing that the bomb was allowed to go off, and people died because I would rather ***** foot around than do what needs to be done.

And the fact is certain things do need to be done. You may not agree with them...that's your call...but it doesn't change the fact that certain scenarios call them into play.

[4dplane]

Great, another one

778736[/snapback]

[Celumnaz]

I'm all for torturing people for information, like if you need to find the rest of their cell and they refuse to tell you.

But currently the American's seem to just be torturing people because they find it fun with no interest of finding information whatsoever. Which is sick, and only gives the terrorists a propoganda victory.

777186[/snapback]

It might seem that way from the media, but it's wrong. We convicted the few that were doing that. It's our Leftist Media that feeds that propaganda for the terrorists. We're coddling prisoners. Looking for abuse go to China, Mexico, Cuba... old Iraq...

[Talon]

It's our Leftist Media that feeds that propaganda for the terrorists

I find it amusing you blame everything on the left when all your media outlets will be owned by right-wing entrapeneurs and its the right-wing who is notoriously attatched to right-wing pro-individual policies. Certainly, all the human rights laywers making a fortune defending these people are all right-wing.

[Commander CMG]

Human psychology shows, anyone or most will say almost anything to end the terrible infliction of pain and delayed suffering.

It is the only effective way to get information, but to understand Torture effectively you have to also endure it in training.

Many of you think this is sick but you have to look at the end result and the benefits and when the information you get saves lives, it has to be worth it.

[Talon]

Many of you think this is sick but you have to look at the end result and the benefits and when the information you get saves lives, it has to be worth it.

Luckily most people here are willing to accept its neccesary

[Commander CMG]

46.67% here are against it, you and I are in the 23.33%?

[Talon]

I'm talking about the people who've posted. I haven't voted, there isn't an apropraite opinion for people who are willing to use it to get info to save people, the only opinions seem to do you agree with it in general, do you agree with it for the sake of it, do you like tickling, and are yu against it.

[Commander CMG]

I'm talking about the people who've posted. I haven't voted, there isn't an apropraite opinion for people who are willing to use it to get info to save people, the only opinions seem to do you agree with it in general, do you agree with it for the sake of it, do you like tickling, and are yu against it.

779990[/snapback]

I don't agree with inflicting pain unless there are major benefits, however there has to be a level of interrogation in any conflict even if it is just white noise and psychological torture.

[Talon]

Sensory deprivation is supposed to be the most efficient method, plus its non-violent, just breaks their will.

[Commander CMG]

Correct but it depends on how it is administered, it can have long term effects on the individual... very complex.

But you are absolutely right it can be for the most part non violent but there is still a minimal physical amount of contact, low aggressive though?

[JayRob303]

There are certain techniques, that are not physical in nature, that can work. Breaking the will is a very good way...

For example: Asking questions with a bucket of blood-like material sitting in front of you, and telling a Muslim terrorist that it is pig's blood. BIG NO-NO for their particular religion... No physical harm, purely psychological intimidation...

[Megalomania]

Faeden.

COuld you please read posts, you do not understand that torure can take many forms.

For example, there is physical and murder, both you and Talon are against it.

There's aggrivation torture, like tickling, and continues playing of the crazy frog sounds, over and over, that don't stop until information is given, it's like driving someone to insanity.

Then there's sense torture.

Make them lose the time, make them not be able to tell night from day, do not allow them to sleep. What about things like filling a room with a fould smelling gas (not dangerous) and keeping them for a few weeks. What about making them taste bad things, like metal.

WHat about shutting them in a room, no windows or doors, just air vents, and giant screens flashing random colours, to hurt their eyes. Or placing them in a metal chair, in a metal room, and having the room and especially the chair heated each hour.

I agree, some tortures are bad.

But some are okay, you just need to be able to draw the line.

Edited August 9, 2005 by Replacement100

[Shadowsleet]

For example, there is physical and murder, both you and Talon are against it.

I assure you, Talon isn't against it....he just agrees that any result gained from it isn't reliable. That, and your subject could very well die before any useful information is given.

Torture is not justified by the type of torture you use...whether you're depriving a person of sleep, dunking his head in cold water, or forcing bamboo shoots under his fingernails. It's justified by why you use it.

The people we're talking about are not POWs - they're terrorists. It's not the same as invading an enemy country and capturing a soldier (although I fancy, despite the rules of warfare against such things, a great deal of torture goes on in such situations regardless). It's a different kind of opponent, that has to be dealt with in a different way.

A great many people have proposed that we should sit down and talk to the terrorists, and find out why they're doing what they're doing...a fine idea I'm sure, if you find any party willing to do so (which I doubt). However, nobody is proposing that we strap random terror suspects up in a chair and torture them for the sake of it.

If a man has planted a bomb that is going to go off in six hours, then no about of talking about the reasons behind his actions is going to prevent that bomb from going off. If your prisoner is keeping his mouth shut, then I believe you are obligated to make him open it. The rights of one criminal, who is quite happy to murder innocent men, women, and children do not come before the safety of your civilian population.

[4dplane]

Poll total as of 08/10/05 is 33 – Full Torture “9”, Torture “8”, Light Torture “2”, No Torture “14”

19 people out of 14 are for torture in some way or another. Although this is not a professional poll (and I apologize for not having more options, I went for simplicity and it really called for a bit more definition), it still adds to my understanding of why nothing has been done about Abu Ghraib – because most of us accept it (torture) in some small way or another!

I am sure the U.S. has tortured many a person since the UN adopted the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Torture does happen and maybe rightfully so, but only in the most “extreme” conditions like 10 nukes ready to blow up at the push of a button and one person knows how to stop it. OK – fine, Nukes are Nukes and they kill everything! Torture the bloody b****** and feel good about what you are doing because you are doing it for a great cause – you are saving Millions…

The problem I see with Bush’s plan to torture is popularizing it by torturing anyone he damn well pleases and at any damn time he wants. He even put some of the torture camps on a map for the world to see. He is telling us and the world, “this is what I’m doing, what are you going to do about?” So far we have done nothing, and I fear the U.S. will not for some time.

Just because the U.S. does not put out videos of what they do to those people in Abu Ghraib we all know some heavy $hit goes down behind those walls. Man can be sick, beyond sick, look at the Bible, the Torah, the Koran, history; look at what we know of man’s means to kill rape and slaughter everything - “For god promised me so I have the right.” And we know it today, because we support it every day by our nukes and their nukes that are meant to kill men woman and children by the possible billions. We are all sick – but how sick are we willing to let ourselves be?

We have never eradicated torture in the U.S, but we had, I believe, removed torture from the list of acceptable acts done by a great nation. Simply put, by making the U.S. Government commit acts of torture in the dark, it made it harder for them; hence, the percentage of torturies was controlled. Now Bush’s plan seems to push the world into believing torture is acceptable and justified, which is allowing him to up the rate of tortured people.

When will torture stop if it goes full scale public? Like mid-evil England, dead bodies at the gates so all that entered would know to behave. What will be the equivalent of this to the 21st century? Will we have the moral power to keep our hatred for the enemy controlled so we do not torture them and love them as they scream for they are our divine enemy? To say, who is this person that tortures? How does this person go home to their family, fit into society, walk among us. “hi dad, did you torture the hell out of them at work today, how did you do it, come I want to know, did they scream?”

[Piney]

To torture an enemy soldier or agent is one thing. To torture a taxi driver who drove too close to the prison was something else. Most of those guards had never seen combat and they are from the same group of reservist twits who abandon a humvee with a code 6 descrambler box after seeing a fraudulant booby trap so that the opposition can now monitor radio traffic. They were also torturing for the sake of it, not to extract any intel, just to watch those people suffer, soldiers and civies alike. What the media says and what is actually happening in Iraq is two different things and oppression breeds revolution.

lapi'che ni'tis

[Celumnaz]

like those video tapes of Saddam's torture victims, documented

Bush torturing anyone any time for the fun of it, hearsay.