Bush says force last resort in Iran

[Talon]

Having a nuclear arsenal is one of if not maybe the only deterrent to a potential USA invasion. Makes sense to me for these smaller countries to go after it.

If the US was going to invade Iran it would have done it ages ago. This is only increasing the chance of invasion.

anyway where's the proof they are using nuclear power for anything other than peaceful means.

Where's the proof they arn't?

Iran is a fundementalist states, who's voted in an extremist leader who has already made threats against the west, and has reponed Nuclear facilities the UN demanded be closed for inspection. Why should we trust Iran?

finding out it was another 'mistake' and fuelling more terrorism.

While bombing there nuclear facilities will likely give Bin Laden more proproganda, he already has that anyway and thousands of potient followers. I rather risk a few hundred more anti-western Muslims, than risk a fundamentalists state getting a nuclear arsenal.

Edited August 19, 2005 by Talon

[zephyr]

but we use take out its nuclear facilities with cruise missles. We can't afford to allow a fundamentalist fascist state get nukes.

Bombing Iran with anything is easier said than done. We can't afford to have warmongering facsist western states get their way of messing up the world!

[Talon]

Bombing Iran with anything is easier said than done. We can't afford to have warmongering facsist western states get their way of messing up the world! 

We're had nukes for 60 years, if we were going to use them to mess up the world we'd have done it already.

[morpheas]

-Post removed-

Edited August 19, 2005 by morpheas

[Talon]

because of their war history compared to ours and the US for starters. when was the last war they instigated or took part in? why should they trust us when we've invaded two of their neighbours and have the warfare history that we do?

You ingnore that the invasion of those two states was a result of an attack on the west by Islamic terrorists, which Iran is linked also to. We did not fire the first shot.

as much as i realise many iranians are very unhappy living under a dictatorship, that doesnt stop them from being very patriotic, i think considering 70% of the 75 million population of iran is under 30, we will have have tad more than a few hundread extra anti western citizens.

Oh I know they're patraotic, there was dancing in the streets when 9/11 happened. I've said in another thread before we should not invade due to the fundamentalist nature of the country meaning they will fight to the last man. Its this fact that I don't want them to get nukes.

Out of two countries right now that want nukes, Iran and NK, I trust NK more with them. Why? Because NK isn't expansionist. As much as it hates the west it knows it'll be crushed if it attacks us, it only wants nukes to hold over Tyoko and to use as way of ensuring its existance.

Iran however is dominated by a fundementalist religion, which is expansionist in nature. We're already seen the end results of this expansionist nature with attacks on the west and calls for the world to covert to Islam. Plus, unlike NK, these fundemantalists honestly believe that they could attack the west and not get wiped out because 'god is on their side' (although scarily enough the US has the same view). The new Iranian Prime Minster has already made threats against the west and is known as a fundemantalist who talks about expanding the Muslim world. Why on earth, should we trust this nation with geniocidal weapons?

You have a personal interest in their favour as your half Iranian, the other Islamics on this site also have an interest as they see this as Islam vs the West, with the nasty westerns just not allowing an Arab country to join the nuclear club. The westerns on this site, or at least the Europeans, however, are looking at the facts, of all countries in the world that should not get these weapons it is an expansionist religious state.

[morpheas]

-Post removed-

Edited August 19, 2005 by morpheas

[Talon]

think im more aware than most on this site(apart from zephyr & baku perhaps) of what iran is like in nature

Your also the one most likely to be bias.

oh please talon, this is comical, do you really see the world converting to islam

Its not an issue of what I think. Its an issue of what the Iranian President thinks, he's the one who will choose what happens with these bombs. Your inability to see that is worrying.

how expansionate has iran been in recent times, it has absolutely no links to the sunni al queda, iran is predominately shiite (over 90%). the activity which casts a shadow over their foreign conduct is their ties to hezbollah.

You miss out that invasion is not the only form of expansion. Terrorism aposed to war actually appears to be the main method of Islamic expansionist action.

bush has made threats against iran, needlessly labelling it on the axis of evil, tell me how evil is a country which donates a million less dollars than the superpower to afghanistan in order to subsidise the farmers so that they dont grow opium?

Iran is also linked with giving support for terrorism.

again if you will accuse Iran of having anything to do with 9/11 which i know they didnt. i would ask you to provide proof please.

I think this just shows how misguided you are, no offense. But you are individual, living in England. You have absolutely no idea as much as anyone else as to whats going on behind closed doors in Iran. The fact you can claim you do it actually not very ecouraging of the rest of your argument. Your letting your own bias of having an Iran father cloud your entire view. It is more important I feel for you to prove you can can say with know without doubt the minds of all members of the Iranian establishment, are you a mind reader?

To be fair, your black and white view isn't uncommon, most people have a hard time accepting criticism of their government. For example the Americans have a hard time accepting their war crimes against the Vietnamese and the Japanese for example still try and ignore the way they treated POWs sixty years ago. Your refusal to see that the evil western media's reports have little reason to be bias is not surprising.

Edited August 19, 2005 by Talon

[Talon]

Btw, your sites don't prove anything, in

Almost every time I enter the foreign ministry building in Tehran, I am told to pull my headscarf further forward to cover my hair.

All this really proves is that where in the west Muslims can come and be themselves and wear the headscarf, Iran is so uncomfortable it must make foreigners conform.

[morpheas]

-Post removed-

[Pannkakskungen]

The only fascist here is you, shut up about things you dont know

How mature

The guy just called the Iran a fascist state, how else do you think I should react?

Possibly be not reverting to insults

799168[/snapback]

You insult a whole country and all its citizens, what do you expect in return, smiles all around, make a stupid comment and get a similar comment in return.

anyway where's the proof they are using nuclear power for anything other than peaceful means.

Where's the proof they aren't?

Iran is a fundamentalist states, who's voted in an extremist leader who has already made threats against the west, and has reponed Nuclear facilities the UN demanded be closed for inspection. Why should we trust Iran?

finding out it was another 'mistake' and fuelling more terrorism.

While bombing there nuclear facilities will likely give Bin Laden more proproganda, he already has that anyway and thousands of potient followers. I rather risk a few hundred more anti-western Muslims, than risk a fundamentalists state getting a nuclear arsenal.

799240[/snapback]

You accuse Iran of developing and producing nuclear weapons, as you are the accuser you provide evidence, thats how it works in the world, so, where are your evidence that Iran is developing the bomb?

Iran is a theocracy, if having an openly religious leader makes them fundamentalist, then the US is also a fundamentalist state.

As I have said already, Iran is not breaking any rules or laws by re-opening her nuclear facilities, Iran has every right to develop nuclear technology, whine to the UN if you don't like it, its their rules.

How is bombing iranian nuclear facilities going to give bin Laden propaganda, Iran and bin Laden are anything but friends, Iran almost went to war with bin Ladens old buddies the taliban, bet you didn't know that did you.

There already is a fundamentalist state with nuclear weapons, pakistan, one more with the US if them having a openly religious leader makes them fundamentalist, which it should according to your classification.

You ingnore that the invasion of those two states was a result of an attack on the west by Islamic terrorists, which Iran is linked also to. We did not fire the first shot.

Out of two countries right now that want nukes, Iran and NK, I trust NK more with them. Why? Because NK isn't expansionist. As much as it hates the west it knows it'll be crushed if it attacks us, it only wants nukes to hold over Tyoko and to use as way of ensuring its existance.

Iran however is dominated by a fundementalist religion, which is expansionist in nature. We're already seen the end results of this expansionist nature with attacks on the west and calls for the world to covert to Islam. Plus, unlike NK, these fundemantalists honestly believe that they could attack the west and not get wiped out because 'god is on their side' (although scarily enough the US has the same view). The new Iranian Prime Minster has already made threats against the west and is known as a fundemantalist who talks about expanding the Muslim world. Why on earth, should we trust this nation with geniocidal weapons?

You have a personal interest in their favour as your half Iranian, the other Islamics on this site also have an interest as they see this as Islam vs the West, with the nasty westerns just not allowing an Arab country to join the nuclear club. The westerns on this site, or at least the Europeans, however, are looking at the facts, of all countries in the world that should not get these weapons it is an expansionist religious state.

799265[/snapback]

Where is your proof that Iran was in any way linked to the 9/11 terrorists, you must have evidence as you again accuse Iran of wrongdoings. Why should Iran, a shiite country, support a sunni terrorist group? a group whose close allies they almost went to war with? Iran was one of the few countries that supported those in Afghanistan that fought the talibans before 9/11, why would they do that if they were friends with the talibans and al-Qaida? Some faulty logic at work here.

True, North Korea might not be expansionistic, but neither is Iran, NK regurarly black-mail their neighbours, South Korea and Japan using their quite potent military to get things they want, does that sound like a country we would like to have nuclear weapons, no, not in my book. But they probably got the bomb already as pakistan sold them the blueprints for it, got old pakistan, never lets you down.

What the heck do you mean by fundamentalist religion, islam is no more fundamentalist than christianity, if you by fundamentalist mean violent. When did Iran attack the west? Wouldn't that be somewhat stupid with all the trade going on between Europe and Iran? Time for somebody to do some reading up on Iran, islam and general middle east history.

Last but not least, iranians are not arabs, they are persians, big diffirence.

[morpheas]

-Post removed-

[Pannkakskungen]

think im more aware than most on this site(apart from zephyr & baku perhaps) of what iran is like in nature

799311[/snapback]

Nice one, making a joke, not a very good one though.

[morpheas]

-Post removed-

Edited August 19, 2005 by morpheas

[Talon]

i would have said it would be the other way round talon, you being the biassed one. being half and half, i can see both sides of the coin.

I think you miss the the meaning of bias. Bias means you have personal interest which cause you to be open to taking sides. You being half in half is the reason you are more likely to be bias, it does not decrease it. You have also shown in the past inaboility to take criticism of Islamic countries. I recall one instance were you called me a fascist for saying I had concerns over the treatment of women in fundamentalist states like Saudai Arabia.... ironically a few months later you mentioned the same criticism however in the thread about their kings death.

I however am from a country which isn't involved in this little US vs Iran stand off. I also have shown no bias against Islam except for the level I show all religions. I have many times spoken my distrust of the funamental evangelical nature of Islam, however I have also many times voives my oppoistion to the Iraq war and support for the Palsitinains. My opinions change between issue, there is no stability which may betray a level of bias against Arabs.

can you see my point then when half a dozen of you here are adamant that iran is developing nuclear weapons without a shred of evidence to back up your accusations.

You ignore Iran is developing Nuclear plants, which can be used to produce Nuclear weapons. We have no reason to beleive it is using them for nuclear free energy, particualarly when they have ingnored UN demands to close the facilities for inspection and their new PM is a none hardliner.

None of the Europeans here have said that Iran for sure is making nukes, what we are saying is we can't take the chance they are.

[morpheas]

-Post removed-

Edited August 19, 2005 by morpheas

[Talon]

You insult a whole country and all its citizens, what do you expect in return, smiles all around, make a stupid comment and get a similar comment in return.

Your exagerate, nowhere do I insult its citizens. Saying state state is Authroirtarian and fundamentalist is a statment about the state. Nowhere do I say Iranians are Authroirtarian and fundamentalist. Calling someone a fascist however is an insult. You should learn difference.

You accuse Iran of developing and producing nuclear weapons, as you are the accuser you provide evidence, thats how it works in the world, so, where are your evidence that Iran is developing the bomb?

....em , where did I say they had nukes? I said they had Nuclear facilities which can be used to make nukes.

Do you even read what people say before posting?

then the US is also a fundamentalist state.

Oh I know they are, and Bush is a lunatic. So?

As I have said already, Iran is not breaking any rules or laws by re-opening her nuclear facilities, Iran has every right to develop nuclear technology, whine to the UN if you don't like it, its their rules.

Their breaking UNB resolutions, the UN wanted them closed for inspections. By refusing to follow this, why should we trust Iran?

sorry talon, i thought you had a view as many do that they all walked around like nuns. i agree with what you said, but in some muslim countries like eygpt and tunisia, the reverse is true, tourists can wear whatever they like while the locals must conform.

And? We're not talking about Tunisia and Eygpt. I could see the point of ringing them up if we were debating them being fundemantelist or not.... but we arn't As it happens I have a friend from Tunsia, Hassan Ben'Amor... nice, guy.... a little arogant at times, but decent.

Nice one, making a joke, not a very good one though.

Morphoas said that not me

[Talon]

talon if tried to argue my point with you without critisism, why do you doubt i know the meaning of a very simple word.

Because of what you said

being half english i would have thought the scales balanced, if iran did have nukes and used them on the UK for example, where do you think il be, on my yaught in the carribean, no here, burning to high heaven with everyone else. compared to iran saudi arabia is very strict and i do abhore the way they treat women, nonetheless i do not see it as a reason to go in there and kill thousands/millions of innocents, i think we could/should be smarter than that. im sorry if my sensitivity to islamophobia has meant ive been hypercritical, but i see that saudi and pakistan have far more terrorist influence and involvement than iran.

I never said we should invade Saudi Arabai, Pakistan or Iran. I said hit their nuclear facilities.

The simple fact is, and there is not point in either of us even debating it further as we'll never see eye to eye, that I don't trust Iran with nukes, and I can't turst it on its word alone that its use nnuclear power for energy and not weapons. You can.

Fine, neither of us can see the other's view.

Doesn't matter anyway, not like we are affecting world policy. Ultimately the only people who can change anything as the Presidents of Iran and the US........ and unfortunely both are religious hardline nutters.

[morpheas]

-Post removed-

Edited August 19, 2005 by morpheas

[Baku]

Oh I know they're patraotic, there was dancing in the streets when 9/11 happened.

799265[/snapback]

Your confusing Iran with Iraq, it was all over the news that Iraqi people were dancing not Iranian. There is a huge difference between the 2 nations, dont get confused. The only time all of Iran was dancing in the streets was during the World Cup 1998 when Iran beated the US with 2-1

I think this just shows how misguided you are, no offense. But you are individual, living in England. You have absolutely no idea as much as anyone else as to whats going on behind closed doors in Iran. The fact you can claim you do it actually not very ecouraging of the rest of your argument. Your letting your own bias of having an Iran father cloud your entire view. It is more important I feel for you to prove you can can say with know without doubt the minds of all members of the Iranian establishment, are you a mind reader?

To be fair, your black and white view isn't uncommon, most people have a hard time accepting criticism of their government. For example the Americans have a hard time accepting their war crimes against the Vietnamese and the Japanese for example still try and ignore the way they treated POWs sixty years ago. Your refusal to see that the evil western media's reports have little reason to be bias is not surprising.

799311[/snapback]

So what your saying right now is that of all the 100 million Iranians all over the world just dont care about the facts, and that they only see the muslim perspective? What you think we are less intelligent then you westerns, thats why we dont look at the facts? Please dont tell me you actually believing what your saying here . With your over 11k posts I obviously believe this is just another one of your spams.

Besides that, your talking about Iran wanting to expend, the only wars Iran has been in the last century were all to defend its country:

WOII (we all know how this war went)

First Persian Gulf War (Iraq started war on Iran, so Iran was in defence)

What possible intresst does Iran show in expanding

[morpheas]

-Post removed-

Edited August 19, 2005 by morpheas

[Talon]

So what your saying right now is that of all the 100 million Iranians all over the world just dont care about the facts, and that they only see the muslim perspective? What you think we are less intelligent then you westerns, thats why we dont look at the facts? Please dont tell me you actually believing what your saying here  . With your over 11k posts I obviously believe this is just another one of your spams.

Actually i was talking about the statement that someone made that could only be said if they knew what every Iranian government member was individual was thinking, nowhere did I say Irian's didn't look at the evidience, although I did say you are more open to be bias on the issue. And that statement holds, whethere you are bias or not, you are still more likely be a bias source do to having conections to the country in question. Its basic source analysis.

The fact you could even come out with such as outragious interpretation of the statement as to think it meant Iranian's were sub-human in intellect quite frankly shows more about your thoughts on westerns than mine about Iranians. I would ask you to question first why you felt so eager to the need to interprete a statement on bias as a westerner making racial slander before continuing.

Thirdly the fact that you just want to revert to insults and say I'm just spamming rather than attempting to have a debate means your not interesting in discussion, you just want to insult people and not worth my time talking to. As much as I didn't agree with everything Morpheas, I could at least respect her as a fellow debater.

Edited August 19, 2005 by Talon

[Baku]

Thirdly the fact that you just want to revert to insults and say I'm just spamming rather than attempting to have a debate means your not interesting in discussion, you just want to insult people and not worth my time talking to. As much as I didn't agree with everything Morpheas, I could at least respect her as a fellow debater.

799512[/snapback]

Your not debatting here you are accusing Iran on false statements. You did say Iran was dancing on 9/11, you did mention that Iran was a fundamentalist fascist state, and more insulting ''arguments''. You seem trying to bring Iran down on every aspect, without any evidence about any of these arguments. So obvious your not debatting here your making accusations.

[Pannkakskungen]

We shouldn't invade Iran, but we use take out its nuclear facilities with cruise missles. We can't afford to allow a fundamentalist fascist state get nukes.

799074[/snapback]

Here you are, insulting a whole country calling them fascists, maybe you forgot that part, huh. Here you also are accusing Iran of getting nuclear weapons, even though you have no evidence what so ever of them doing that.

Nuclear technology is not banned in any way, even though you seem to think so.

Edited August 19, 2005 by Pannkakskungen

[Pannkakskungen]

Morpheas is bias in this issue because of her having relatives in Iran, no doubts about that, but you Talon is bias because of your xenophobia towards Iran, you blame Iran for things you cant prove, like developing nuclear weapons and helping bin Laden, but you have yet to produce any evidence at all.

[morpheas]

-Post removed-