Old Europe, Looking Older

[Blackleaf]

France is a former superpower,

So is Britain - even more so. But France isn't a superpower anymore, but still likes to think it is. Britain has done better than France at getting over the loss of Empire.

France makes world class wine,

A British wine was recently voted the best in the world, wine sales in France are decreasing, but in Britain wine sales increased 23% last year - and Brits tend to drink British wine and wine from other Anglo-Saxon countries rather than French wine.

a world famous language,

Catalan, Luxembourgish and Nepalese are world famous languages. French barely makes it into the top 10 languages most spoken in the world, whereas English is the second-most spoken language after Chinese Mandarin and is the world's most widespread language. It is also the world's lingua franca, whilst the French language is ind ecline.

fought for the side of good in two World Wars

In WWII it ended up being allied with the Germans.

The only embarrassing part of France's history is the colonial Empire bit, and I don't think anyone from Britain can criticise it for that considering what the British Empire did.

I would say the British Empire was far friendlier to the people it ruled than the French Empire was.

Most ex-British colonies are amongst the richest countries in the world - US, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, Hong Kong, Singapore.

But look at ex-French colonies - Mozambique is the world's poorest country and Niger is THE poorest, and Mozambique is desparate to become a member of the British Commonwealth rather than France's equivalent - La Francophonie - even though it was never a British colony.

Edited September 1, 2005 by Blackleaf

[Blackleaf]

France has been a center for art and culture for longer than most countries have been established and continues to do so.

Whilst Britain has been a dynamic centre of music and art for decades, French art and culture seem to have died. They haven't produced a decent piece of art or classical music for decades, but still like to think that their culture is the world's greatest.

Take a look at the Louvre in Paris. Most of the works of art in that place aren't even French. They were painted by Italians, Spaniards, Germans, Dutch, British.

[zephyr]

Take a look at the Louvre in Paris. Most of the works of art in that place aren't even French.

So what? Take a look at the British Museum in London. Most of the works of art in that place aren't even British. So what? What counts is that the French have good cheese and the British have good football and the Persians have lots of ancient artifacts to fill museums with.

[Tommy]

Most of the works of art in that place aren't even British. So what?   

We plundered those Elgin Marbles fair and square! Seriously though, museums would be pretty boring if they could only have artifacts from the host country.

But France isn't a superpower anymore, but still likes to think it is

Have you got any evidence, facts or examples to back that up? What makes you think France thinks she’s a superpower?

Edited September 2, 2005 by Tommy

[Talon]

So is Britain - even more so. But France isn't a superpower anymore, but still likes to think it is. Britain has done better than France at getting over the loss of Empire.

Er, neither is Britain. We haven't been a superpower since WW1, I think the fact we couldn't beat the Nazi's, but the Soviets and Americans could proved that.

A British wine was recently voted the best in the world, wine sales in France are decreasing, but in Britain wine sales increased 23% last year - and Brits tend to drink British wine and wine from other Anglo-Saxon countries rather than French wine.

I'm sorry, how does the fact the French drink less wine and the British drink more automatically mean their wines are inferior? All that tells me is they have less of a drinking problem.

Also learn geography, Britain is NOT Anglo-Saxon. England is Anglo-Saxon. But you forget that Britain is made up of four member states, three of whom are Celtic. Consiering you moan about how Celts secretly control the UK government all the time, I'm surprised you forgot.

Catalan, Luxembourgish and Nepalese are world famous languages. French barely makes it into the top 10 languages most spoken in the world, whereas English is the second-most spoken language after Chinese Mandarin and is the world's most widespread language. It is also the world's lingua franca, whilst the French language is ind ecline.

So your claim that France sucks is based on the fact Briatin viciously occupied more countries and taught them out language.... wow.... great logic there.

In WWII it ended up being allied with the Germans.

Nooooooo It got occupied by Germany. The north became part of the Third Riech and a puppet fascist ruler was put in power in the sourth. The same happened in a dozen other countries which were occupied, and it would have happened to Britain had it been occupied.

I would say the British Empire was far friendlier to the people it ruled than the French Empire was.

Not really. Remember Hitler didn't make up the idea of concentration camps, he just used them. Consentration camps were invented by the British during the Boer war. Also didn't you see the movie Zulu? And the we sold slaves to America And the first British colonists to the America set about externiminating the natives Nope, I don't think we were that great as rulers.

Most ex-British colonies are amongst the richest countries in the world - US, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, Hong Kong, Singapore.

But look at ex-French colonies - Mozambique is the world's poorest country and Niger is THE poorest, and Mozambique is desparate to become a member of the British Commonwealth rather than France's equivalent - La Francophonie - even though it was never a British colony.

Of that list US and Canada are resource rich. New Zealand and Australia were used for settling, so I'm surprised the faired better than some of our other territories. And Hong Kong and Singapore were built up to be bases in the far east, no wonder they were heavily developed.

And as for the French colonies you mention, well Britain can hardly talk, I notice you miss out the actualy majority of the UK Empire which has not done so well:

Basutoland (now Lesotho)

Bechuanaland (now Botswana)

British Togoland (now part of Ghana)

Gambia

Gold Coast (now Ghana)

Kenya (most parts colony, the coast area protectorate)

Mauritius

Nigeria

Northern Cameroons (now part of Nigeria)

Northern Rhodesia (now Zambia)

Nyasaland (now Malawi)

Sierra Leone

Somaliland

South Africa

Cameroon

Southern Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe)

South West Africa (now Namibia)

Swaziland (nominally independent state under British protectorate)

Sudan

Tanganyika and Zanzibar (now Tanzania)

Zanzibar

Uganda

Burma

Iraq

Now....... going through that list I see a hoste of countries which are poverty stricken, half a dozen which are dictatorships, another half-dozen which had seen civil war, and a number which have been the scenes of utter genocide, hell Sudan only happened last year!

Does this sound successful to you?

Take a look at the Louvre in Paris. Most of the works of art in that place aren't even French. They were painted by Italians, Spaniards, Germans, Dutch, British.

You even seen the British museum lately? Full of treasure hordes of historical artifacts indeed........... most taken from our empire.

Edited September 1, 2005 by Talon

[Guest Lottie]

Get a life.

[Talon]

Get a life.

I hope thats aimed at Blackleaf and not me

[Mr Ed]

This British wine statistic, it doesn't matter, we all know that French wine is better, and the food.

[Richdog]

Now I take offence at anyone saying French food is better.

[Mr Ed]

Well, I love roast chicken, yorkshire puddings and stuffing, but normally, when it comes to fine food, the French got it good. And the Italians.

[Blackleaf]

This British wine statistic, it doesn't matter, we all know that French wine is better, and the food.

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I've already told you once that a British wine was voted the best in the world recently, and a British restaurant was voted the best in the world. Britain had more restaurants in the list of the world's top 50 than France, Italy and the United States.

French food is awful. Italian food is nicer. The Italians make spaghetti bolognese, pasta, ravioli and lasagne. The British produce fine Scottish salmon, Welsh lamb, steak and kidney pies, steak and ale pies, black pudding, Yorkshire pudding, fish and chips, shepherd's pie.

What do the French eat. Frog' legs in GARLIC and snails in garlic.

[Mr Ed]

French food is awful.

Aha, how many times have you been to a nice French restaurant in France? If you have been many times to the swanky places and feel the same then I feel sorry for you, you must have some crappy taste buds or got some bad service.

Italian food is better than ours.

What do the French eat. Frog' legs in GARLIC and snails in garlic.

Ah, another one of your great stereotypes. That is like saying the Scottish only eat Haggis...

Snails are quite nice actually.

[Blackleaf]

Aha, how many times have you been to a nice French restaurant in France?

I don't need to go to a French restaurant to feel revulsed by the thought of eating the legs of frogs.

Ah, another one of your great stereotypes. That is like saying the Scottish only eat Haggis...

It isn't a stereotype. The French DO eat those things. Just ask any Frenchman.

And haggis tastes nice.

Edited September 2, 2005 by Blackleaf

[Mr Ed]

Blackleaf, seriously, don't reply to a point and then take it out of context. It makes you look like an idiot.

The way you said it was as if they only eat snails and frogs legs. Just like saying the Scots only eat Haggis. You know what you did, stop making it out as if you were stating a simple fact and that it had no meaning to it.

I don't need to go to a French restaurant to feel revulsed by the thought of eating the legs of frogs.

Ah, so you haven't been to a French Restaurant....

[Blackleaf]

How France needs Britain and/or Germany to survive.

By Sylvain Charat (a Frenchman)

Published September 2, 2005

The time is gone when Dominique de Villepin — now French prime minister — was lecturing the United States at the United Nations and French President Jacques Chirac was telling the new members of the European Union that they lost an opportunity to shut up. Arrogance does not pay, and now the French government is adopting a low profile since the European project seems in a dead end.

European consensus has not been reached over the last two years which witnessed three crucial crises mainly due to the French stubbornness. In each of theses crisis, the same scheme is to be found: A French and German couple promoting a dirigiste agenda opposed to a free-trade group composed of Eastern, Nordic and English-speaking nations.

That was indeed the case during the diplomatic crisis over the intervention in Iraq, the political crisis over the referendum on the European Constitutional Treaty, and the economic crisis over the budgetary negotiations which failed this summer.

For this last one, we should notice that negotiations failed partly because Mr. Chirac is adding to his anti-Americanism a real "anti-Britishism."A Champion of French collectivism, he is deeply against economical liberalism and strongly opposes any kind of reforms that are promoting free trade. Therefore, Mr. Chirac is prepared to oppose the new president of the European Union, Prime Minister Tony Blair.

Now that the European project is in a dead point, the entire myth of France's grandeur and influence is collapsing because France needs two things to be of influence: Germany and Europe. Mr. Chirac is losing both, and here lies the hope and good opportunity for Europe. France led Europe into a dead end, yet this project can be saved by Britain. Would it not be ironic?

Let's consider the last 200 years or so. Europe has always been put in motion by three powers: the United Kingdom, Germany and France. In this three-power game, a country had to be one of the two to matter, as 19th-century German Chancellor Otto von Bismarck wisely advised. France always succeeded in being one of the two through alliance with the United Kingdom, especially in the first half of the 20th century, and with Germany in the second half mainly to build Europe.

An alliance between London and Berlin is not in the interest of Paris. If France survived as a power, it is thanks to the United Kingdom or to Germany, since it has been a long time since France has been able to be a power on its OWN.

Through blindness and refusal of adaptation and integration in the new global economy, Mr. Chirac has disrupted the equilibrium that made France a power that mattered. Mr. Blair's outward movement to fit and integrate the global economy by making Europe an open society to face new challenges is much more promising than Mr. Chirac's inward movement towards protectionism and collectivism.

Mr. Blair's domestic successes are appealing to the most probable future German chancelor, Angela Merkel. She is already preparing a shift in German politics toward the United Kingdom, giving up the French collectivist friendship. She would therefore welcome market-based reforms. A London — Berlin rapprochement would create the new engine of Europe that may relaunch the European process.

The United Kingdom and Germany could wait to implement free trade policies. Such a move would be an excellent signal sent to Eastern countries that already adopted economically liberal measures such as flat tax. Thus the East could be better integrated into the European Union. In all, the British put up with a German backing could result in having Europe back on its feet and on the right economic trail. Optimistic? Maybe, but probable. Let's see.

But whatever happens now, France is left behind. It is becoming what it really is: a second-rate country. This is Jacques Chirac's achievement. But may be it is better like this, since Europe cannot afford any longer Mr. Chirac's losership.

washingtontimes.com . . .

[Mr Ed]

We need Germany to survive. They have the biggest economy in Europe.

[Blackleaf]

Blackleaf, seriously, don't reply to a point and then take it out of context. It makes you look like an idiot.

The way you said it was as if they only eat snails and frogs legs. Just like saying the Scots only eat Haggis. You know what you did, stop making it out as if you were stating a simple fact and that it had no meaning to it.

I didn't say the French only eat frogs' legs and snails. They were the only two that I listed. I can't list EVERYTHING that the French eat because there's not enough room here. They are just the two most famous things that they eat, just like I listed the most famous things that we eat - fish and chips and sheherd's pie.

Ah, so you haven't been to a French Restaurant....

823219[/snapback]

I'd rather go to a British one, they've been proven to be better. I might give that British restaurant in Berkshire a try - that was voted the best restaurant in the world.

Edited September 2, 2005 by Blackleaf

[Blackleaf]

We need Germany to survive. They have the biggest economy in Europe.

823224[/snapback]

Britain will soon overtake Germany to become Europe's largest economy.

Compare the current economic growth rates between Britain and Germany/France.

[Mr Ed]

I didn't say the French only eat frogs' legs and snails. They were the only two that I listed. I can't list EVERYTHING that the French eat because there's not enough room here. They are just the two most famous things that they eat, just like I listed the most famous things that we eat - fish and chips and sheherd's pie.

I never asked you to list everything. In my experience, steak and chicken are much more commonplace than snails and frogs legs....

They way you said it was in a stereotypical light, whether you intended it to be portrayed that way or not. Judging from past experience...

I'd rather go to a British one, they've been proven to be better. I might give that British restaurant in Berkshire a try - that was voted the best restaurant in the world.

Yes, you keep saying it and I keep reading it. I never said it wasn't, on the whole French restaurants are better.

[Mr Ed]

Britain will soon overtake Germany to become Europe's largest economy.

Presently though, Germany is the worlds third largest economy.

[Blackleaf]

Yes, you keep saying it and I keep reading it. I never said it wasn't, on the whole French restaurants are better.

823229[/snapback]

Not according to that survey they aren't - we had more restaurants in the Top 50 than them so, on the whole, UK restaurants are better.

[Blackleaf]

Britain will soon overtake Germany to become Europe's largest economy.

Presently though, Germany is the worlds third largest economy.

823231[/snapback]

Well, we're the fourth, until China and India and Brazil and others overtake both us and Germany.

[Mr Ed]

Not according to that survey they aren't - we had more restaurants in the Top 50 than them so, on the whole, UK restaurants are better.

Top 50, there are many more restaurants than that in England and France. France is better on average.

British food is lovely though, don't get my wrong.

Well, we're the fourth, until China and India and Brazil and others overtake both us and Germany.

Yup, oh well. China is going to bull doze its way up.

[Blackleaf]

Top 50, there are many more restaurants than that in England and France. France is better on average.

Prove it.

[Mr Ed]

I don't need to, I have been there and lived it. I have proof enough for myself.

They don't do apple pie though, that is why I would rather eat in a British restaurant.