Bush's response to the tragedy...

[Rhomphaia]

Okay, this is going to be off topic, but I have to rant here.

Why is it that when ANYONE sports an unpopular opinion around here, they become a target?

For example, someone called my responses 'fanboyish'. What am I a fanboy of? Common sense? Someone else also called me childish for calling someone a jackass. To me, anyone who bashes a country and its people without cause, just because it is popular is a jackass.

I stand by my statements. This is a huge disaster area and many thousands are affected. The problem could very well be that they are trying to figure out how to help the most people in the shortest amount of time. This works fine for smaller disaster zones or ones without so much total devastation, but it isn't working here. The point is that the authorities ARE trying. Like I said before, this is a huge area with a million and one problems and only so much manpower to go around. You can have all the money, food, water, supplies and vehicles you want, but guess what, they are going anywhere without people to take the supplies somewhere or use the equipment.

Money enough will come from the citizens of the US and abroad who wish to help. larger entities and agencies need to send what they send best, people on the ground, national guard to bring order (which they are doing), making it safe for busses to go in and take people out and for trucks to go in and give people supplies while they wait. People are needed to help clear the bodies, search for more survivors, keep the peace, shore up the levees and this list goes on. So much needs to be done at once and there is simply not enough people to do it all at once. Prioritization isn't an option in a circumstance like this. So if you take the time to make things absolutely safe, half or more of the people are going to die, so you divert some of your manpower to trying to help those who need it. If the levees break and Lake Pnchartrain completely spills into the city, everyone is going to drown, so you got to put people on trying to at least stave off the eventual failure. if you ignore the armed thugs, then no one is safe so you have to keep people doing that. There are people who need medical attention, so you need more of your manpower to do that. See where I am going with this?

Point is, they are doing what they can with what they got. They need more, everyone in this situation needs more. hell, if I could find a way down there, I will hop on a bus or train or whatever and go volunteer my help. That is another pair of feet on the ground there and while it isn't much, it would be a start lightening the workload.

[Richdog]

Okay, this is going to be off topic, but I have to rant here.

Why is it that when ANYONE sports an unpopular opinion around here, they become a target?

"Unpopular" is not the same thing as "antagonistic". Calling someone a jackass is the latter, and does nothing for your argument.

For example, someone called my responses 'fanboyish'. What am I a fanboy of? Common sense? Someone else also called me childish for calling someone a jackass.  To me, anyone who bashes a country and its people without cause, just because it is popular is a jackass.

No you're certainly not a fanboy of common-sense, or if you are you have yet to display it. No-one criticises the USA and it's citizens... they criticised BUSH and the administration for the response to the disaster... something you seem to have some inexplicably large problem differentiating between.

I stand by my statements. This is a huge disaster area and many thousands are affected. The problem could very well be that they are trying to figure out how to help the most people in the shortest amount of time. This works fine for smaller disaster zones or ones without so much total devastation, but it isn't working here. The point is that the authorities ARE trying. Like I said before, this is a huge area with a million and one problems and only so much manpower to go around. You can have all the money, food, water, supplies and vehicles you want, but guess what, they are going anywhere without people to take the supplies somewhere or use the equipment.

So here again we are coming back to the "I know more than the disaster experts and media experts who have already criticised the slow response and given clear reasons why". They are more knowledgeable than you or I, trust me on that one.

[+joc]

So here again we are coming back to the "I know more than the disaster experts and media experts who have already criticised the slow response and given clear reasons why". They are more knowledgeable than you or I, trust me on that one.

The problem with the above quote RD is 'media experts'. The media experts are hacks and have an agenda....the fact is the only people who have the answers to the question are the ones in charge of putting it all together and they are too busy to play politics.

[sultanmuratova]

Rapes, killings hit Katrina refugees in New Orleans

By Mark Egan

NEW ORLEANS (Reuters) - People left homeless by Hurricane Katrina told horrific stories of rape, murder and trigger happy guards in two New Orleans centers that were set up as shelters but became places of violence and terror.

Police and National Guard troops on Saturday closed down the two centers -- the Superdome arena and the city's convention centre -- but them penned them in outside in sweltering heat to keep them from trying to walk out of the city.

Military helicopters and buses staged a massive evacuation to take away thousands of people who waited in orderly lines in stifling heat outside the flooded convention centre.

The refugees, who were waiting to be taken to sports stadiums and other huge shelters across Texas and northern Louisiana, described how the convention centre and the Superdome became lawless hellholes beset by rape and murder.

Several residents of the impromptu shantytown recounted two horrific incidents where those charged with keeping people safe had killed them instead.

In one, a young man was run down and then shot by a New Orleans police officer, in another a man seeking help was gunned down by a National Guard soldier, witnesses said.

Police here refused to discuss or confirm either incident. National Guard spokesman Lt. Col Pete Schneider said "I have not heard any information of a weapon being discharged."

"They killed a man here last night," Steve Banka, 28, told Reuters. "A young lady was being raped and stabbed. And the sounds of her screaming got to this man and so he ran out into the street to get help from troops, to try to flag down a passing lorry of them, and he jumped up on the truck's windscreen and they shot him dead."

Wade Batiste, 48, recounted another tale of horror.

"Last night at 8 p.m. they shot a kid of just 16. He was just crossing the street. They ran him over, the New Orleans police did, and then they got out of the car and shot him in the head," Batiste said.

The young man's body lay in the street by the Convention Center's entrance on Saturday morning, covered in a black blanket, a stream of congealed blood staining the street around him. Nearby his family sat in shock.

A member of that family, Africa Brumfield, 32, confirmed the incident but declined to be quoted about it, saying her family did not wish to discuss it. But she spoke of general conditions here.

"There is rapes going on here. Women cannot go to the bathroom without men. They are raping them and slitting their throats. They keep telling us the buses are coming but they never leave," she said through tears.

People here said there were now 22 bodies of adults and children stored inside the building, but troops guarding the building refused to confirm that and threatened to beat reporters seeking access to the makeshift morgue.

People trying to walk out are forced back at gunpoint - something troops said was for their own safety. "It's sad, but how far do you think they would get," one soldier said.

"They have us living here like animals," said Wvonnette Grace-Jordan, here with five children, the youngest only six weeks old. "We have only had two meals, we have no medicine and now there are thousands of people defecating in the streets. This is wrong. This is the United States of America."

One National Guard soldier who asked not to be named for fear of punishment from his commanding officer said of the lack of medical attention at the centre, "They (the Bush administration) care more about Iraq and Afghanistan than here."

The Louisiana National Guard soldier said, "We are doing the best we can with the resources we have, but almost all of our guys are in Iraq."

Across town at the Superdome, where as many as 38,000 refugees camped out until Wednesday night when evacuation buses first came, the 4,000 still there were corralled outside, hoping to get on four waiting buses with seats for only 200.

The scene at the sports stadium was one of abject filth. Crammed into a small area after the building was shut to them last night, those remaining sat amid heaps of garbage, piled in places waist high. The stench of human waste pervaded the interior of the now vacant stadium.

One police officer told Reuters there were 100 people in a makeshift morgue at the Superdome, mostly people who died of heat exhaustion, and that six babies had been born there since last Saturday, when people arrived to take shelter.

At the arena, too, there was much talk of bedlam after dark.

"We found a young girl raped and killed in the bathroom," one National Guard soldier told Reuters. "Then the crowd got the man and they beat him to death."

DAMN! this is insane! Im speechless.

[LarryOldtimer]

OK, you wise (not!) anti-Bush complainers . . . let's hear it from you. What could Bush have done legally that he did not in fact do? Let's hear your after the fact Monday morning quarterbacking. What didn't he do, specifically, that you think he should have done? This federal effort has been one of the best conducted in the history of the US. Please tell where he failed. But I want specifics, and I would be more than happy to respond. What specific actions should Bush have taken that he didn't, withing his legal control and authority? Not some BS that he didn't feed the multitude with a couple of loaves of bread and five fish or so.

[Kabutarian]

OK, you wise (not!) anti-Bush complainers . . . let's hear it from you.  What could Bush have done legally that he did not in fact do? Let's hear your after the fact Monday morning quarterbacking.  What didn't he do, specifically, that you think he should have done?

Given the city the funds the reinforce the levees, gotten the rescue effort going sooner, prevented development on the marshlands...

This federal effort has been one of the best conducted in the history of the US.

o_o; you're joking, right? You can't seriously mean that. People are DYING of starvation, they're being raped, there's no sanitation, there's rampant looting... Plus, it took, what, three to four days for the rescue effort to get moving in full force?

Please tell where he failed.  But I want specifics, and I would be more than happy to respond.  What specific actions should Bush have taken that he didn't, withing his legal control and authority?  Not some BS that he didn't feed the multitude with a couple of loaves of bread and five fish or so.

825827[/snapback]

[Nxt2Hvn]

Given the city the funds the reinforce the levees, gotten the rescue effort going sooner, prevented development on the marshlands...

You know Kabu... hind sight is 20/20 ... in the real world at least! And the levee issue has been going on for years... way beyond the Bush Administration...

I think with how big and widespread this disaster is and with what the Federal governenment had to deal with they saved a LOT of lives.. but is anybody going to point that out???? NO... I saw several helicopter rescues as early as Monday... the convention center not getting supplies is always going to be the main focus.. thanks to our good 'ol media ...

And preventing development on Marshlands... man you would have to go WAY back... before Bush was even born...

Edited September 4, 2005 by Nxt2Hvn

[Michelle]

I pointed out the fact that the levee has been dismissed by several administrations, and it seems to fall on deaf ears.

Let's complain to the French government, because their immigrants settled there.

[girty1600]

I pointed out the fact that the levee has been dismissed by several administrations, and it seems to fall on deaf ears.  

Let's complain to the French government, because their immigrants settled there.

825921[/snapback]

I agree; lets blame the French. God knows we have to blame someone. Everyone knows that it must be the fault of some person and not that of a category 5 hurricane coupled with the fact that the city was built below sea level and is run by people that chose not to spend some of its millions in casino revenue to fix their own levees.

[LarryOldtimer]

So, could have started the relief effort sooner . . . when? Before Katrina made landfall? As far as I am concerned, the federal effort did begin as soon a humanly possible. Bush in fact declared a state of emergency well before Katrina made landfall, so that FEMA forces would be placed the nearest they could be . . . but that still had to be at least several hundreds of miles away from New Orleans . . . and New Orleans was only part of the action. The enire gulf coast for miles inland was destroyed for at least 100 miles on either side of Katrina's path, and for a good many miles inland. It was still rated a catagory 1 hurricane for at least 5 hours after it passed over New Orleans. As I understand it all, Bush had to urge the state and city officials to evacuate the city before they had thought to do it. The mayor did an abject job of the evacuation . . . just look at the picture of the buses underwater in New Orleans . . . they could have been put to use evacuating those who had no means of evacuation (and they wouldn't be under water either, had they been) . . . they weren't. Surely the I-10 freeway could have been quickly converted to contra-flow lanes going away from the city . . . which would have gotten people evacuated about three times as fast as it did happen . . . and the freeway was under the control of the state highway people, but it didn't happen. Governor Blanko could have activated the National Guard a lot sooner . . . like before Katrina made landfall. She waited far too late. Just planning a relief convoy route couldn't have been started until well after Katrina passed over New Orleans. Surely you folks don't think that food and water could have been just air dropped . . . I hate to think of how many would have been killed had that happened. These weren't troops well trained in air drops . . . just undisciplined citizens milling around. For that matter, the city was mostly underwater on day one . . . more than 80% of it. I sure would like to see anyone of you lay out a specific plan of relief better than the one used . . . because you simply can not do so.

[LarryOldtimer]

Given the city the funds the reinforce the levees, gotten the rescue effort going sooner, prevented development on the marshlands... In case you haven't noticed, Bush has no authority in this matter . . . Congress is the part of government which decides how and how much federal money is to be spent.

o_o; you're joking, right? You can't seriously mean that. People are DYING of starvation, they're being raped, there's no sanitation, there's rampant looting... Plus, it took, what, three to four days for the rescue effort to get moving in full force As I stated in another post, three or four days is about the minimum time that relief could have been expected under the circumstances. Bush isn't allowed by law to use either National Guard or regular armed forces in a domestic situation like this . . . Federal armed forces can be used by the President in domestic situations only when the state legislature meets, and passes a bill requesting such aid. The legislature didn't do so. The National Guard is under control of the governor of the state, not under control by Bush. Governor Blanko was pretty useless, and waited far too late to activate the LA National Guard. It is sad indeed, but gee whiz . . . what was the New Orleans police department doing all that time? Where were the state police? Oh, I guess I forgot . . . many of the NOPD deserted their posts, and state law enforcement troopers didn't even think to make contra-flow lanes on the freeway out of the city for the evacuation ordered by the mayor . . . and the city didn't even think to use the municipal and school buses for those who had neither the means or ability to evacuate on their own. Last I saw was a picture of a whole lot of those buses . . . underwater. I saw where a youth of 18 took a school bus which had been abandoned and used it to evacuate a bunch of those people; he had more sense than the mayor did, and the bus he took is in a whole lot better condition than the presently submerged ones. Now it looks like he may be in legal trouble for his efforts . . . they should pin a medal on him.

[The Caspian Hare]

Christ, the bodies haven't even been pulled from the water and we've got to start this who to blame routine...

States and local governments are supposed to be the primary agencies in disasters like this. If there's something they can't handle, then the feds step in, and they usually depend largely on the locals to tell them who needs what, when and where.

And as a matter of fact, Bush personally called the governor before the storm and requested her to impose a mandatory evacuation. And keep in mind that is normally the kind of thing that is the responsibility of the local government, not the president.

http://www.nola.com/newsflash/louisiana/in...ylist=louisiana

The mayor called the order unprecedented and said anyone who could leave the city should. He exempted hotels from the evacuation order because airlines had already cancelled all flights.

Gov. Kathleen Blanco, standing beside the mayor at a news conference, said President Bush called and personally appealed for a mandatory evacuation for the low-lying city, which is prone to flooding.

Edited September 4, 2005 by Redneck

[+joc]

I think with how big and widespread this disaster is and with what the Federal governenment had to deal with they saved a LOT of lives.. but is anybody going to point that out???? NO... I saw several helicopter rescues as early as Monday... the convention center not getting supplies is always going to be the main focus.. thanks to our good 'ol media ...

The Coast Guard rescued some 10,000 from roof tops during those first three days afterwards.....if we put ourselves in the shoes of being on a rooftop or being at the superdome....what is the proper response?: Leave that SOB and bring me some water dammit...or Save them first then come and help us?

[iaapac]

There is no bigger critic of George Bush in the world than me, but I will abstain from criticism and remain silent in respect for the victims of this tragedy.

[LarryOldtimer]

Redneck: States and local governments are supposed to be the primary agencies in disasters like this. If there's something they can't handle, then the feds step in, and they usually depend largely on the locals to tell them who needs what, when and where.

That is also the position of the National Guard in disasters such as this . . . they are there to augment the efforts of local law enforcement, not take over. FEMA is mostly about money . . . handing out relief funds. For sure, a goodly number of posters have some strange ideas of what the federal government's role is supposed to be in disaster situations . . . and have fantasies regarding how long it takes to mount a relief force to provide food and water to some 100,000 or so people. It wasn't just the people in New Orleans that got hit . . . everyone for miles inland in a swath of at least 200 miles got hit severly. And it isn't enough to arrive with food and water for say half . . . all that gets you is riots . . . who decides who gets food and water, and who doesn't? Does anyone really think that would be a wise thing to do? What madness. With some of the posts, I really have to wonder . . . would it have helped to instantly start out with relief convoys . . . and end up mired in the swamp along the way? I don't think so, and I certainly am happy that some of the commenters here aren't in charge of things . . . they would make a bigger disaster of it than it already was. The federal response was remarkably quick from any standpoint.

[starlitkate]

y'know richdog, i was looking for somewhere to rant about all of this, was even thinking of starting a new thread, but i'll go with yours, cause i wanna talk about this mess, and how it's all falling apart here, and bush, well he's always a problem, will now likely show just how little he cares for the working poor of the country, but hang on a moment, let me just go over the whole thing and see if we can see what the bigger problem is here.

ok. you have to deal with nature and it's weather. we all know that.

hurricanes happen, and they will continue.

but here's what i read so far about new orleans.

first it being built below sea level is bad enough, and the levy's are only supposed to be good enough for a category 3 hurricane, anything more and there not going to keep the water out.

so, 200 million dollars from the federal government was set aside a few years ago to build up the levys and reinforce the city.

the money never got there, it went to the war in iraq.

hold on, i know, you think i'm blaming the iraq war for the troubles in new orleans, hardly, but i just want to mention a few things here which have added the catastrophe of the hurricane.

ok, so we have money that was meant for civic infrastructure diverted to the war.

how about the ecologists. now someone who lives or knows the layout of new orleans may know more about this than i, but here's what i read.

there were marshlands around new orleans, and the ecologists had stated it needed to be left alone, to act as buffer for any storms that blew through. but the oil hungry greedy burn the earth types drilled through the marshlands laying pipelines for all the oil that comes in, this caused the marshlands to sink and when the storm hit, and the surges of water, the natural buffer wasn't there. but that's always the story right, screw the ecologists, the tree huggers they know nothing, and we don't need the marshalands.

and now to bush.

what was that tepid pile of spam he went on about last night.

i see america without a strong leader, when, now of all times you really need one.

there is no plan, there seems to be little concern for the truly poor.

stories of people being airlifted from their homes, to be dropped in the street and told, you're on your own now.

dead bodies in the lobby at the superdome, cause, well. where you gonna put them.

and lastly, what about the military there, allready stretched to it's limits, because all of the miltary is in iraq.

this is a third world mess in america. could it have been prevented? no. the storm would've come.

but if the money back then had have been used properly, if the money needed now, wasn't being blown in iraq, if bush was truly a leader, and if you had all the military you really need at your disposal, then it would definately not be as bad as it is right now.

and if bush thought his popularity was falling, wait a month, it's going to be abissmal.

and he probably doesn't care, cause he won't be running for office again.

i feel sorry for the poor who are sitting in the streets with no food or water, i feel sorry for the city of new orleans, which has become the 21st centuries pompei, and i feel sorry most of all for america.

you are truly in trouble.

i hope you can show the rest of the world what i know you're made of, and climb out of this mess.

822007[/snapback]

Totally agree!!!

[starlitkate]

Back to the election, i was surprised that the United States voted the President that spent most of his time on vacation then being in the office and working. A man who, when heard of the first plane ramming into the trade center, continued to talk to preschoolers.

I'm sure that he is trying really hard to make everything better but if he spent less time on vacation, alot more lives could have been saved.

822025[/snapback]

I totally agree with you Nameless. When Bush received warning in letter from credible source and even though he thought it not to be so credible then the least he could have done was prepared something in case this is happening. When he was sitting in that preschool reading then I wonder if it ever went thru his mind once ' Well I wonder if this possible could happen '. No, instead he chose to ignore all possibilities of an attack and passed the letter off like it was nothing valid. Aren't our president supposed to take precautions?? I don't see Bush doing this. I say we all start something to sign him out of office. We do have the power to do this as citizens--why not?

[Piney]

I pointed out the fact that the levee has been dismissed by several administrations, and it seems to fall on deaf ears.  

Let's complain to the French government, because their immigrants settled there.

825921[/snapback]

I agree; lets blame the French. God knows we have to blame someone. Everyone knows that it must be the fault of some person and not that of a category 5 hurricane coupled with the fact that the city was built below sea level and is run by people that chose not to spend some of its millions in casino revenue to fix their own levees.

825943[/snapback]

PRAISE BE!!! AN AGREEMENT!!!!!!!!!

[Steeler Mania]

If it was a war, Bush would have had mega billions to offer.

Our own people, suffer under this tradgety and a president who knows nothing but war.

I am sorry if I sound negative, but Bush gave my opinion honestly. He does not care about US citizens, only his war and his ability to send our tax dollars, free of charge, to third world countries.

The people of New Orleans, gulfport and othe affected towns, need Federal relief NOW! Not just, well, let's see type of government. What bothers me is we can LOAN our own people Federal monies, but not just give it to them. We can give monies free to other countries, but we LOAN our own people funds during natural disasters. That is BULL.

Edited September 4, 2005 by Steeler Mania

[Kismit]

I have to admit, I wondered why his first reaction was troops with guns and not food and water.

[__Kratos__]

I have to admit, I wondered why his first reaction was troops with guns and not food and water.

827187[/snapback]

People shooting at people with those supplies tend to get that reaction. Bunch of animals some are... who the hell shoots at the person trying to save your sorry excuse for a life? They just couldn't walk in unarmed with supplies trying to help the one suffering.

[Piney]

When I first saw the Philadelphia Enquirer yesterday the front page had a dozen white Louisiana state troopers piled on an APC with kevlar and M16s watching a 80 year old colored woman wading waist deep with a walker. Then I read about the same overzealous state troopers (PROBABLY WHITE)gunning down inocent kids (PROBABLY BLACK) it really irked me. Back in the 1927 flood colored people were forced at gunpoint to stand and lay behind the sandbags and as for evacuaction how many people who make a $1.50 an hour own cars. All the wealthy did evacuate and left the poor there why weren't buses commandeered and drivers forced to stay and get the poor out cause the bus drivers make enough to own cars and they left. WERE WAS THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT they scattered like rats on the titanic instead of taking command. It was a joke from the bottom to the top and nobody in this country cares about the colored poor unless your an illegal mexican immigrant.

A dozen local farmers including myself donated tomatos, stringbeans ,corn, potatos and we raised $3,000 and the AFSC (Quaker Meeting) is giving a milllion

lapi'che ni'tis

[Piney]

I have to admit, I wondered why his first reaction was troops with guns and not food and water.

827187[/snapback]

People shooting at people with those supplies tend to get that reaction. Bunch of animals some are... who the hell shoots at the person trying to save your sorry excuse for a life? They just couldn't walk in unarmed with supplies trying to help the one suffering.

827193[/snapback]

Some of that crap turned out to be an excuse for white cops to shoot some black people.

look at both sides! I have not seen a picture of a cop with color yet!!!

lapi'che ni'tis

[Kismit]

I have to admit, I wondered why his first reaction was troops with guns and not food and water.

827187[/snapback]

People shooting at people with those supplies tend to get that reaction. Bunch of animals some are... who the hell shoots at the person trying to save your sorry excuse for a life? They just couldn't walk in unarmed with supplies trying to help the one suffering.

827193[/snapback]

Or they could have gone in armed and with supplies and transport. I mean forgive me, I only see the News over here but the troops where sent in to restore order, not to give aid. Why couldn't they do both? Why was the most important thing the shoot to kill.

It's just that from here, Mr Bush does appear to have a bit of a guns first kneejerk reaction thing.

[Kismit]

Piney,

You do realise by claiming that the Cops are racist, you are discriminating against people who are trying to help othere's while there own homes and families are in fact lost.

It's not a race issue, it's a human issue. Let's keep it that way.

Edited September 5, 2005 by Kismit