Iran defies nuclear referral risk

[Dr_Strangelove]

Actually Zeph I have heard of all sorts of different plans for retiring our nuclear arsenal. The rate things are going I doubt if we will see these happen.

I also have mixed feelings about DU simply because we do have alternative munitions that are almost as good in terms of lethality. For those of you interested just look at the performance capabilities of tungsten core APDS.

Zeph I'm glad I've inspired you to learn more about the wonders and horrors of nuclear weapons. If you ever want I can recommend some very good books on nuclear weapon effects. It really is amazing what is publicly available.

[zephyr]

so yeah, it's pretty easy to consider less harsh actions and desires as anti-Semitic as well.

I see what you mean since it's so easy for me to consider all the harsh actions and words against Iran as being anti-Persian racism. But I usually try to look beyond governments' propaganda and often end up realizing that things are just not as simple as my naive thoughts based on tv news broadcasts lead me to believe.

Zephyr, do you even know what's the point of propaganda?

I think it is to direct the public opinion in a way that people in power want them to be directed. That would be so the politicians can score short-term political points against each other while the public finds some of their far-fetched actions and comments resulting from such propaganda perfectly normal and not out of place at all.

You seem to use that word as an excuse to your government's actions

That's where you're making a mistake. Since I'm not even in agreement with most of the government's policies and am certainly not a member of it, I see absolutely no reason to look for excuses to justify any of their actions.

yet one has to ask why is it that your country puts so much into that kind of propaganda.

that's a good question, and the answer lies with the propaganda war that is going on.The issue can not be properly debated without taking into account all the other propaganda and counter-propaganda directed against Iran. I think people on all sides need strong external enemies for internal reasons. For example, everytime there is a military threat against Iran, normal people tend to rally behind the government and the domestic political opposition tends to diminish and that's what governments are looking for; they usually can deal better with empty, foreign threats than strong and real internal opposition. Of course they need to provoke the foreigners into those threats, something not so difficult to do given the availability of flags, threats of nukes and all sorts of other military or economic interventions, and of course the good old tv.

Why is it that Israel is found in official Iranian propaganda as one of the main targets?

Probabely for the same reasons that Iran is found in the official propaganda of a few countries as one of the main targets; a convinient escapegoat if you ask me.

Israel has never attacked Iran -

Iran has never attacked Israel either, so I guess we're even on that.

Israel, in my book, has been far too patient in it's response to the mass campaign played against it by the Iranian governments for the last 26 years.

That's good that you realize it's been a campaign and a heavy propaganda one at that, I must say. I don't know what you mean about Israel having been patient and what it could have done had it not been patient. Another example to make things clearer; Israel has used that Iranain campaign against it to lobby for more arms and more military expenditure, so, as long as it is in their benefit why should they do anything to stop the empty and far-fatched threats against them? Seen from here, there has also been a massive Israeli campaign and lobby against Iran for the past 26 years as well and things usually work both ways in these situations, only you seem to be melted too much into your government's views to see their propaganda and how others who are targetted by it might feel about it. Your judgments of this particular situation are a little bit one-sided; I try to see through my government, please try to do the same with yours as well.

Zeph I'm glad I've inspired you to learn more about the wonders and horrors of nuclear weapons. If you ever want I can recommend some very good books on nuclear weapon effects. It really is amazing what is publicly available.

Thanks doc! Nukes are not really my area of interest and what I learn here about them is more than what my stomach can handle, so for the moment, I'll just stick to what I can learn about them through you and these forums, but it's nice of you to make that offer anyway.

[Erikl]

I see what you mean since it's so easy for me to consider all the harsh actions and words against Iran as being anti-Persian racism.

There's defensive accusations against an agressor and hatred-based propaganda.

For example, the relations between Nazi Germany and jewish organizations around the world was similar - the Nazis spread alot of propaganda against the Jews, while the Jewish organizations spread alot of anti-Nazi material.

You can see the difference, I hope.

Israel has never spoken against the Iranian people - on the other hand, we are constantly tought since kindergarden how strong and friendly were the relations with the Persians since BC times up until 1979.

On the other hand, I always see Iranian officials speak of "Evil Zionists", and do not make distinction between Israeli citizens and Israeli government - they speak simply of the eradication of the state of Israel with all it's "zionist" inhabitants.

We all know all-too-well that in the Middle-Eastern dictionary, "Zionists" = "Jews".

I think it is to direct the public opinion in a way that people in power want them to be directed. That would be so the politicians can score short-term political points against each other while the public finds some of their far-fetched actions and comments resulting from such propaganda perfectly normal and not out of place at all.

I know - that is the main reason why virtually all the non-democracies in the middle-east use Israel as a scapegoat - to direct public opinion against atrocities which occured naturally under non-democratic regimes.

But the nature of the Iranian government's anti-Israeli propaganda is worry-some and looks more like Nazi-like obssesion - similar to how Saddam and Nasser hated us, and how Hamas usually speaks.

That's where you're making a mistake. Since I'm not even in agreement with most of the government's policies and am certainly not a member of it, I see absolutely no reason to look for excuses to justify any of their actions.

Thanks Zephyr - that's so good to hear!

I was waiting for such outright statement from you for a long time.

But, as the saying goes - better late than never.

I think people on all sides need strong external enemies for internal reasons.

Yet Iran was never even considered an enemy of Israel before the 1979 revolution and the beginning of the anti-Israeli campaign by the different Iranian governments. On the other hand - our two countries were the closest allies in the region, much like Israel and Turkey are today (even stronger, IMO).

For example, everytime there is a military threat against Iran, normal people tend to rally behind the government and the domestic political opposition tends to diminish and that's what governments are looking for; they usually can deal better with empty, foreign threats than strong and real internal opposition.

Ofcours - that's a classic symptom of totalitarian regimes.

You can read all about it in Orwell's "1984".

Probabely for the same reasons that Iran is found in the official propaganda of a few countries as one of the main targets; a convinient escapegoat if you ask me.

Again, look at my example about the relations between the Nazis and the different Jewish organizations some 60 years ago.

I see one huge difference between 1930s Germany and Iran though - as opposed to the German people who collaborated with the crimes of the Nazis to full extent to cause agony in other nations, I see the Iranian people themselves as the main victims of their ruthless regime. As a result, I do not blame the Iranian nation for their government's sins - I wish the Iranian student organizations would succeed in their campaign to liberate Iran and install an Iranian democracy, without foreign countries needing to install non-native regime.

Iran has never attacked Israel either, so I guess we're even on that.

The Iranian government has supplied and keep supplying arms to terrorist groups which killed hundreds of Israelis and Jews around the world.

Only two years ago, a ship full of Iranian supplied weapons was cought on it's way to to the shores of Gaza by the Israeli Defense Forces, including Katyusha missiles, mortars, anti-man and anti-tank mines (which are illegal weapons by the way), thousands of AK74s and 700,000 bullets, called the "Karin A".

Another example to make things clearer; Israel has used that Iranain campaign against it to lobby for more arms and more military expenditure, so, as long as it is in their benefit why should they do anything to stop the empty and far-fatched threats against them?

Again, just the like the Nazis and the Jewish organizations - that's a natural reponse of an entity which is being threat upon with total destruction.

Your governments keep on calling for our destruction, so obviously we will act accordingly to arm ourselves against such an obssesive enemy.

Many here fear, because of the constant call for our destruction, that your future nukes has one target - Israel, which will indeed result in our total destruction (and it takes only one nuke to eliminate at least 50% of Israel's population and about 20% of Israel's territory, because of our small size and population density).

Israel has never called for the total descrution of Iran or of the Iranian people. Our campaign is soley one for self-survival.

[zephyr]

There's defensive accusations against an agressor and hatred-based propaganda.

And who's to decide what's what? I consider many of Israel's propaganda and lobbying against Iran very, very agressive.

For example, the relations between Nazi Germany and jewish organizations around the world was similar

I'm not okay with that at all; that's what they want you to believe, but that comparison just doesn't help us understand the situation at hand today.

You can see the difference, I hope.

I sure as hell can, and what a difference!

Israel has never spoken against the Iranian people

When Israeli lobbyists go around the world working against what I consider Iran's interests and not only against her government, I take that to be against the Iranian people since I'm one of them, I have the right to do that, no?

always see Iranian officials speak of "Evil Zionists", and do not make distinction between Israeli citizens and Israeli government

Yeah, what bommers(is that an English word?). The Israeli officials aren't doing any better at that either, what bommers!

We all know all-too-well that in the Middle-Eastern dictionary, "Zionists" = "Jews".

That's where you're inventing things, Erik! No such dictionary exists, and that equation is obviously a false one that you find in no REAL dictionary. There are Jews living in Iran, there are Synagogues and they even have a representative in the parliament. I truly haven't heard any propaganda against the Jews, although I have heard a lot about Zionism.

I know - that is the main reason why virtually all the non-democracies in the middle-east use Israel as a scapegoat

The others, the democratic ones do it as well, they make heavy propaganda at their own people to mislead them about other people and nations, they do that in Israel, in Europe and in the US and everywhere else. Saints just don't exist in politics!

But the nature of the Iranian government's anti-Israeli propaganda is worry-some

I wouldn't worry too much if I were you, see; I'm not one bit worried about the Israeli government's anti-Iranian propaganda.

looks more like Nazi-like obssesion - similar to how Saddam and Nasser hated us, and how Hamas usually speaks.

Well; this is Iran and things work differently, that's all. I don't know why I don't like that Nazi comparison too much. You can in no way compare the Iranian society today with that of the Germans back then.

Thanks Zephyr - that's so good to hear!

I was waiting for such outright statement from you for a long time.

But, as the saying goes - better late than never.

I thought all my statements were outright, you think it's the first time?... Funny...; It's surely that new tea from the Caspian again.

Ofcours - that's a classic symptom of totalitarian regimes.

You can read all about it in Orwell's "1984".

It's also a classic symptom of Western democracies, we have many living examples of that. I read "1984' back in 1984; jolly good book!

I do not blame the Iranian nation for their government's sins

That's nice Erik; I always do the same for the whole world.

I wish the Iranian student organizations would succeed in their campaign to liberate Iran and install an Iranian democracy, without foreign countries needing to install non-native regime.

Foreign countries installing non-native regimes in Iran? One thing we all want is democracy, but the Iranain people's quests for it in the last 100 years has been hampered and sometimes outright crushed by foreign powers cooperating with the domestic anti-democratic forces. Don't take my word for it, just look at the history of Iran since the Constitutional revolution. And today it's no different, the more foreign interference there is, the slower the democratization of Iran becomes and all this propaganda directed at Iran is doing just that.

The Iranian government has supplied and keep supplying arms to terrorist groups which killed hundreds of Israelis and Jews around the world

There have been many terrorist activities in Iran that have been related to the Israeli secret services. A lot of governments resort to terror as a means to conduct policy, and what Israel considers as 'terrorists' are not necessarily considered as such by others, at least not until such time that there's peace between Israel and the Palestinians.

Your governments keep on calling for our destruction, so obviously we will act accordingly to arm ourselves against such an obssesive enemy

I could say exactly the same thing about your government and how we need to arm ourselves because of looming threats.

that your future nukes has one target - Israel,

And may I ask what your present non-declared nukes have as target? The present seems more urgent than fantasies about far-fetched future events, wouldn't you say so?

Our campaign is soley one for self-survival.

So is ours!

[Dr_Strangelove]

Okay, I'm curious, for just one moment lets imagine that Iran does decide to build a nuclear bomb. At this point I'm not saying that Iran intends on building a nuclear weapon but they seem to be developing the capability to do so if they chose. But what if they build a nuclear bomb. We will imagine it as a relatively low yield fission device in about the 100 Kt range. We will also imagine that this bomb can be mounted on one of Iran's IRBMs.

Now nuclear weapons are not targetted quite as easily as a conventional munition. Usually the targets are preset to reduce launch times in a crisis. The idea is to be able to launch the missile before inbound enemy weapons can destroy it. There are some nukes that are reserved for tactical usage with more flexible targetting options but I don't see that Iran owns any of these nifty mobile launchers.

Okay, imagining all of this, who does Iran aim their nukes at?

[Erikl]

Okay, imagining all of this, who does Iran aim their nukes at?

Obviously Israel.

Back when Saddam was around, I would argue that Iraq would be Iran's main target. Nowdays it's only Israel.

And 100kt yeild bomb is perfect for the task - Israel is an extremely small country (about 20,000 sqkm) and the majority of Israelis are concentrated around a thin coast line. One small yeild nuke could take out as many as 250,000 Israelis, maybe even 500,000. For a country that is only 7 million people large, that's a huge lost - on strategical levels.

[Erikl]

And who's to decide what's what? I consider many of Israel's propaganda and lobbying against Iran very, very agressive.

It's pretty simple.

Iran and Israel used to be allies.

Then fanatical muslims take over Iran.

Then Iran start calling for Israel's destruction.

It's quite easy to understand Israel's reaction to such a development.

I'm not okay with that at all; that's what they want you to believe, but that comparison just doesn't help us understand the situation at hand today.

As long as your government officials keep talking about Israel as Nazi officials used to speak of Jews - I see such comprasion in place.

When Israeli lobbyists go around the world working against what I consider Iran's interests and not only against her government, I take that to be against the Iranian people since I'm one of them, I have the right to do that, no?

Ofcourse not - going by that logic I could argue that there are pigs flying around. Israel might be lobbying against the Iranian government - but our officials do not speak for Iran's total destruction and our leaders do not sponsor terrorists who kill Iranian citizens.

Yeah, what bommers(is that an English word?). The Israeli officials aren't doing any better at that either, what bommers!

Sure they do - they never speak for Iran's demise. They have no problem with Iran's existance - they merely attack the Iranian government's actions against Israel.

You see - this is where the line exists - Iranian officials seem to have a foundamental problem with our right to exist. Israel has no such issue when it comes to Iran.

Hence why Iran is the agressor here, and Israel is in a defensive place.

That's where you're inventing things, Erik! yes.gif No such dictionary exists, and that equation is obviously a false one that you find in no REAL dictionary.

Errm... I was being metaphorical you know... obviously there are no real dictionaries that has "Zionist = look up 'Jew' for further info" in them .

The others, the democratic ones do it as well,

That's where you are somewhat wrong.

You see, in a democracy, when the the people are not pleased from their government's way of conducting things, they elect other politicians for the task. Democracies also have a very strong inter-punishment system - ie when politicians comitt crimes they are being punished, because the parliament and the court are seperated from eachother.

In non-democracies, such seperation isn't always clear, and so the same government that comitts the crime also controls the court that supposed to punish it.

This enables the government to comitt crimes against it's own citizens, and to tunnel the frustration of the people - they need a scapegoat, or the people would rise against them and overthrow them.

I wouldn't worry too much if I were you, see; I'm not one bit worried about the Israeli government's anti-Iranian propaganda.

Again, there is no anti-Iranian propaganda here, not in the way there is anti-Israeli propaganda in Iran anyhow.

Iran seem to have a basic issue with our right to exist.

Israel has no issue with Iran's right.

There have been many terrorist activities in Iran that have been related to the Israeli secret services. A lot of governments resort to terror as a means to conduct policy, and what Israel considers as 'terrorists' are not necessarily considered as such by others, at least not until such time that there's peace between Israel and the Palestinians.

Rubbish.

Terrorists are armed groups who target innocent civilians as their main target (keep in mind that if civilians are harmed in military action, that isn't enough to apply the title "terrorists" for the military who carried the action).

There are no anti-Iranian terrorist groups linked to Israel - it's all part of the big anti-Zionist propaganda portrayed by your government.

Israel and Iran actually have many common enemies.

On the other hand you see regualr meetings between Iranian officials and anti-Israeli terrorists out in the open.

I could say exactly the same thing about your government and how we need to arm ourselves because of looming threats.

You could but that would be lying because we both know Israel doesn't call for Iran's total destruction and has never worked for such a goal.

And may I ask what your present non-declared nukes have as target? The present seems more urgent than fantasies about far-fetched future events, wouldn't you say so?

Doesn't work that way.

You see - if we do have nukes, we had them since 1965.

There were at least 3 times nukes would have been thought to be used since then (1967, 1973 and 1991), yet Israel hasn't used it's nukes.

From where I stand, that's a pretty convincing proof for Israel's long standing and stable rationality and responsibility with it's alleged nukes.

[Dr_Strangelove]

Obviously Israel.

Back when Saddam was around, I would argue that Iraq would be Iran's main target. Nowdays it's only Israel.

And 100kt yeild bomb is perfect for the task - Israel is an extremely small country (about 20,000 sqkm) and the majority of Israelis are concentrated around a thin coast line. One small yeild nuke could take out as many as 250,000 Israelis, maybe even 500,000. For a country that is only 7 million people large, that's a huge lost - on strategical levels.

Thank you Eric, very well thought out. It also gives even more logic to the Arrow interceptor and possibly even THEL. I'll have to look up the estimated CEP factors on Iran's potential IRBMs.

[Dr_Strangelove]

For the sake of discussion I've been doing a bit of personal research on the idea of Iran getting a nuclear weapon. Right now Iran only has a testbed system for an IRBM but it does sound like they have a very good MRBM in the field.

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/iran/missile/shahab-4.htm

It puts a whole lot of people within reach.

[zephyr]

It's pretty simple.

As I said before things are not as simple as you might be led to believe. Seen from where I'm sitting, the Iranian government's propaganda against Israel is by no means any justifications for Israel to point nukes at Iran and for the Israeli government's lobbyists to work against the interests of Iran and therefore its citizens(especially that the Israelis are always quick to point out that Iran is not a democracy; an obvious contradiction in their approach towards Iran and the Iranians). Then they naively claim that we're friends with the Iranian people and expect us to believe them; it just doesn't work that way and the Iranians I talk to anyway don't share your views. In the state things are today, Israel's agressivity toward Iran is no less than the Iranian government's agressivity towards Israel; you just choose to see one side's arguments and aren't even ready to go as far as I have and criticize your own government or at least see through their propaganda. Believe it or not, the Israeli government is no angel as portrayed by you.

As long as your government officials keep talking about Israel as Nazi officials used to speak of Jews - I see such comprasion in place

Nonsense! The Nazis had the substantial support of the Germans(Nazism was born out of a democracy), and went on a rampage to invade many countries and persecute jews, which is of course not the case of Iran today. Your own claims that Iran is not a democracy defeats your illogical and non-valid comparison and the repeat of the propaganda of the Israeli government does not make that comparison any more valid in the real world.

Israel might be lobbying against the Iranian government - but our officials do not speak for Iran's total destruction and our leaders do not sponsor terrorists who kill Iranian citizens.

They are lobbying against the interests of the Iranian people eventhough they might say they're doing it only to the government. From outside any country, it's impossible to target the government without targetting the people and vice versa, when economic sanctions are imposed on a country for example, usually people get hurt much more than the governments; that's how we perceive things here when those lobbies end up as military and/or economic threats against Iran.

they never speak for Iran's demise

Well; they might not speak it very often, but they sure act towards that goal everyday which I find more bothersome than just talking about it.

Hence why Iran is the agressor here, and Israel is in a defensive place

That's your biased opinion, mine is that Israel is working hard against Iran and is just as much of an agressor as the Iranian government, only I'm ready to admit that about my government but you're not ready to do the same about yours, and that's where our foundamental difference is.

Errm... I was being metaphorical you know... obviously there are no real dictionaries that has "Zionist = look up 'Jew' for further info" in them

No; you were implying that in the ME people equate Zionism with Judaism, which is of course totally false as far as the Iranians are concerned anyway, dictionary or not. The Iranian government does a lot of propaganda against Zionism, but none against the jews or judaism ; anybody trying to make you believe the contrary is lying to you.

That's where you are somewhat wrong

I wasn't talking about courts and overthrows and how democratic systems work. I was talking about the natural reaction of societies to external threats, and that even in democracies, people tend to rally behind their governments in times of foreign military threats and usually the domestic opposition sees its hands tied up in their actions against the governments in those times of crisis caused by foreign threats. There are so many examples of this in modern democracies as well as dictatorships that any arguments to the contrary seem completely superficial.

Again, there is no anti-Iranian propaganda here

There might not be any there, but we sure as hell hear and feel them here.

Rubbish.

Rubbish. Just because you're not ready to open your eyes to your government's sinful activities doesn't mean they don't exist. And what the Israeli government considers as terrorists is by no means a valid reference since they are involved in a war with the Palestinians and they consider the Palestinians fighting for their rights as terrorists. Once there is peace, maybe then the cries of terrorism coming out of Israel could be considered as being objective.

On the other hand you see regualr meetings between Iranian officials and anti-Israeli terrorists out in the open.

And the Israelis do it in a covert way, but it still remains terrorism.

You could but that would be lying

No it wouldn't because Israel works towards harming Iran and the people within it, so, what might appear as a lie to your biased opinion could be the absolute truth to someone else's biased opinion.

From where I stand, that's a pretty convincing proof for Israel's long standing and stable rationality and responsibility with it's alleged nukes.

Maybe from where you stand, but not from where I stand. Iran does not even have nukes, so your argument that Israel has never used its nukes has no value since it is already one step ahead by having them. Besides, everyone knows that Israel has not signed any of the international treaties on nuclear technology and continues to maintain a secret arsenal which is of course a big threat to the security of the whole region and Iran in particular given the hostile stance of the Israeli officials toward her. As I said in my previous post, present and real threats such as the ones posed by Israel are much more urgent to attend to than dreaming about the future and making those dreams look real through propaganda. Pointing the fingers at countries that don't even have nukes while Israel maintains its bombs in defiance of all international treaties is rather hypocritical if you ask me, and I can only laugh when I hear statements such as " well, we're not against the people but only against the government", when we know Israel could be already and TODAY pointing nukes at Iran.

It puts a whole lot of people within reach

If the hypothetical nukes of Iran could put a lot of people within reach, how many people are actually within the reach of the REAL nukes the US and Israel possess already, Doc? Or are you going to give me the old excuse that it's okay for us to have nukes and threaten others with them since we have a local democracy?

[Babs]

That's all nice and interesting, zep, and I agree with your logic, but this is how the world is..... and this is how the world is set up. Life isn't always fair .... and who's to say what is fair and what isn't? Some countries have nukes and others don't. And for good reason. You have crazy Mullahs at the helm... they would blow up anything to advance their cause. The U.S. has had nukes for many many years and they haven't used them. You can see the difference here, everyone.

[Erikl]

Zephyr, you make me laugh - why on earth would Israel want to fight Iran? it's not a neighbouring country, and it used to be our closest ally.

Iran was the one to break it's relations with Israel and became hostile towards us.

Israel, if it has nukes, proved responsible enough not to use them in cases when I'm 100% certain other nuclear powers would have.

And if Israel had developed nukes, it did it because it had no other choice - it's enemies, which tried to eliminate it from day one, outnumber it in every possible level - territory, population, resources etc.

If there was ever any country in the world that deserves to develop such a terrible weapon for self-defense, it's Israel.

All the other nuclear powers in the world have huge territory and big population - no conventional attack could seriously cripple them. Iran, shall it ever develop nukes, is the same - with a territory about as big as half europe, and a population of 70 million, no conventional attack could ever exterminate Iran. Nor are there any forces in the world that wish to exterminate Iran or the Iranian people.

You delibertly ignore most of my hard questions or give half-answers, because you know deep down that what's your government have been feeding you for the last 26 years is pure rubbish and paranoia, nothing more.

Israel has never attempted to destroy Iran. Israeli officials have never called for Iran's destruction.

You accuse my country of conduting terrorism against your people - yet there are no recorded incidents of "Zionist" terrorism in the Islamic Republic of Iran. On the other hand, you seem to have no problem admitting your politicians support and help terrorists around the world.

As for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict - I fail to see how it has anything to do with Israel-Iran's relations.

Also, it's so complicated and has been twisted so much that if we'll start debating it here, we'll go off-topic.

Also it has nothing to do with what terrorism is - and your governments have been supporting and harbouring terrorism against Israeli civilians and Jews around the world.

This proves your politicians aren't only using Israel as a scapegoat, they are actively working toward harming it and killing it's citizens.

Face these facts and atleast show the most basic decency.

[Baku]

hey Erikl I readded your posts and you got some good points in it in which I agree in. But I must add that you shouldnt think or believe that the Persian people are hostile to Jewish people, its our goverments that are each others enemies not the people. But goverments always try to get its people involved aswell but like in this case they failed.

You probably know but in the time of the Persian Sha, Persia and Israel were pretty good friends, Israel was like the second or third closest ally. And the reason why Iran and Israel are hostile against each other is because of our goverments, mainly the mullahs cuz they kinda dont like Jewish people. Maybe you know this but I just wanted to bring it up.

Also I dont believe any country in the world has the right to own nukes. I have readded your arguments and they have a point. But its wrong to have nukes, because they are build for mass destruction which is just wrong. There are more countries who are smaller and surrounded bu enemies. For example, Azerbaycan, 7 million total civilians, on the north the Russians, the east Armenia. And on the south Iran. Maybe you know that Russia and Armenia slaughtered like a million Azeri's in 1989-1994? So this would mean that Azerbaycan also has right to build nukes? Myabe you now understand my point.

[coldwhitelight]

But to respond to the main post;

yes, why shouldn't Iran have their own nuclear program? Are they really that "unstable" a nation?

A. Iran is a Totalitarian Islamic Regime.

B. Iran declared America the Great Satan. The country also calls for the death and destruction of Israel.

C. Iran sponsors and supports terrorism.

Iran has been this way Since 1979.

And the reason why Iran and Israel are hostile against each other is because of our goverments,

It was the Mullah Iranian government that is hostile towards Israel. Not the other way around. The Mullahs decided to use anti Israeli anti Jewish semitism propaganda against Israel. It constantly calls for Israel's destruction.

mainly the mullahs cuz they kinda dont like Jewish people. Maybe you know this but I just wanted to bring it up.

There are many reason why the Mullahs hates Israel. I will go over two of them. When the Mullahs came into power 1979 they hated anything with a western influences especially in the Middle East. The biggest western influence in the region is Israel. Also the Mullahs want everyone to of the Islamic faith. As we all know anyone that dose not believe in Islam is considered by the Mullahs a Kafir and a bad influence. In Israel The majority of people are of the Jewish religion or consider themselves Jewish.

Edited September 28, 2005 by coldwhitelight

[zephyr]

That's all nice and interesting, zep, and I agree with your logic, but this is how the world is..... and this is how the world is set up. Life isn't always fair .... and who's to say what is fair and what isn't?

Right Babs; I'm not contesting the unfairness of life here, just that we all see through our respective governments' propaganda and not consider our own government as faultless angels and thereby justifying the possession of WMD. I have succeeded in doing that, but obviously some people are way too absorbed in their government's views and are therefore totally biased in their look at the world.

You have crazy Mullahs at the helm...

Right again; but I think people like Cheney and Rumsfeld are just as crazy, and I certainly don't trust them more than I trust the Mullahs and don't recommend that you do either. Especially that the Mullahs have far less power than their counter-parts in Washington.

The U.S. has had nukes for many many years and they haven't used them. You can see the difference here, everyone.

Sure they have used them! No; I don't see any difference, nukes are dangerous everywhere, especially when they are controlled by warmongering lunatics who go around threatening countries that don't even have them.

As we all know anyone that dose not believe in Islam is considered by the Mullahs a Kafir and a bad influence.

This shows your lack of knowledge about Iran and its society. There are many different ethnic and religious groups living in Iran that have their respective worship places and representatives in the parliament, and all that under the rule of the Mullahs. Here they are, Orthodox Christians, Jews, Zarastorians. Zionism is not the same as Judaism eventhough many attempts are made to equate them. And for your information, Kafir is someone who doesn't believe in god and since the followers of all the above religions do, therefore they can not be considered as Kafirs and whoever does consider them as such is either misled or is misleading others or both.

Zephyr, you make me laugh - why on earth would Israel want to fight Iran? it's not a neighbouring country, and it used to be our closest ally

You make me laugh too Erik; by that same logic, why would Iran want to fight Israel? As for Iran's change of policy towards Israel, you seem to forget that there was a major revolution here and many old policies gave their place to new ones, for better or for worse. Pointing nukes against Iran and boasting about it is not going to make matters any better either.

Israel, if it has nukes, proved responsible enough not to use them in cases when I'm 100% certain other nuclear powers would have

Pure speculation which is the result of long-term exposure to one-sided propaganda!

If there was ever any country in the world that deserves to develop such a terrible weapon for self-defense, it's Israel.

Is that what they teach you at schools in Israel? Dangerous manipulation of minds to justify illegal possession of WMD.

with a territory about as big as half europe, and a population of 70 million, no conventional attack could ever exterminate Iran. Nor are there any forces in the world that wish to exterminate Iran or the Iranian people.

So according to your logic, it would be okay to nuke a country just because it has a big territory! There are powers and of the super type as well that want to exterminate Iran and the Iranians. Just look at the cynical plans against Iran that back-room warmongers come up with once in a while especially following heavy Israeli lobby, they even talk about them in the papers and on this very site. So I'm not going to take your personal word for it as long as Iran is exposed to daily threats.

You delibertly ignore most of my hard questions or give half-answers, because you know deep down that what's your government have been feeding you for the last 26 years is pure rubbish and paranoia, nothing more

I thought I already made it clear that I'm not a defender of the Iranian government, quite to the contrary; and the valid criticizms directed at the Iranian government do not upset me, contrary to you who can't stand the slightest criticizm of the Israeli government and label as anti-semetic anti-Jewish whoever that attempts to do so . It seems to me that when you run short of valid arguments and aren't even capable of criticizing your own government, you come up with far-fatched arguments and try and stick me to the the government in Tehran. Nice try, but not very effective.

You accuse my country of conduting terrorism against your people - yet there are no recorded incidents of "Zionist" terrorism in the Islamic Republic of Iran. On the other hand, you seem to have no problem admitting your politicians support and help terrorists around the world

Of course there are recorded incidents in the Islamic republic concerning 'Zionist' terrorists and spies. There were arrests made in Shiraz a couple of years ago of Iranians working for the Israeli secret services. A number of bombings in Tehran and other cities have been linked to Israel as well.

Sure; I have no problems admitting to the sinful acts of the Iranian government, you are the one with huge problems admitting to the Israeli government's sinful acts.

As for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict - I fail to see how it has anything to do with Israel-Iran's relations.

It has everything to do with it. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict has poisened this region for decades and as long as Israel refuses to recognize the Palestinians' rights and does not make effective and long-lasting peace with them, that poisening will continue which is of course the source of many problems and conflicts in this region and in the world in general.

Also it has nothing to do with what terrorism is - and your governments have been supporting and harbouring terrorism against Israeli civilians and Jews around the world.

This proves your politicians aren't only using Israel as a scapegoat, they are actively working toward harming it and killing it's citizens.

Face these facts and atleast show the most basic decency

Of course it has to do with what terrorism is. Any long-term conflict is bound to creat terrorists with both sides of the conflict resorting to such tactics and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is no exception.

Your government has been sponsoring terrorism and lobbying against Iran as well, so I guess things are even on that account.

You should face the facts by coming out of the shell that your government has built around you, and I will believe in your decency once I hear you criticize and not justify at least some of your government's agressions.

Iran declared America the Great Satan

That was a childish declaration, in the same line as the 'axis of evil' and 'outposts of tyranny' ; declarations made by over-grown children posing as serious politicians!

[Babs]

zep....Very interesting. I don't know what to say........but I do have a question. Why is Hamas attacking Israel when Israel moved out of Gaza?

Didn't they move their people kicking and screaming and crying so that the palestianians could live side by side, in peace?

[LarryOldtimer]

I have to paraphrase the South Park kid (either Kyle or Stan) on this one. I don't hate Iranians, but I guess that if they push it enough, I could learn to. The government of Iran sponsers terrorism . . . pure and simple. I am far more concerned that terrorists could get their hands on radioactive material and use it to make a "dirty" conventional bomb. That could cause significant economic consequences if detonated in any major city. Imagine if the latest bombings in London would have been dirty bombs . . . not too hard to figure out what the effects would have been . . . subways unusable for a long damn time. The events of 9/11 convince me totally that a dirty bomb would be very attractive to terrorists, and they are really easy to make . . . just need finely divided radioactive material . . . only a pound or so would do nicely, and explosive material which is easily obtainable. Not easy to determine who the sponser is either, so unlikely that it would be met with a counter nuclear strike. I have known and worked with Iranians, both male and female, who managed to escape the insane "mullas" and come to the US . . . I found them to be reasonable people, and easy to get along with . . . but they weren't religious fanatics, as the government of Iran consists of these days. I guess that there were lots of Germans who didn't like what Hitler was about in the 1930s, but they suffered right along with the those who did support Hitler when push came to shove, and Hitler led Germany into an insane war. It always happens that way.

Edited September 27, 2005 by LarryOldtimer

[zephyr]

zep....Very interesting. I don't know what to say........but I do have a question. Why is Hamas attacking Israel when Israel moved out of Gaza?

Sorry Babs; but I'm not really an expert on the matter and don't have any information about why decisions are made the way they are on both sides. I hope peace comes very soon. I know Iran for one has suffered greatly because of the Israeli-Arab conflict.

I don't hate Iranians, but I guess that if they push it enough, I could learn to

That would be so unfortunate!

I found them to be reasonable people, and easy to get along with . . . but they weren't religious fanatics, as the government of Iran consists of these days.

And the more military and other kinds of threats there are against Iran with warmongers parading around their nukes for example, the more those fanatics gain in strength and the more those reasonable and peaceful people are pushed aside. I think Iran is constantly being pushed into fanaticism by world powers. But do you think people like Bush and Rumsfeld realize that? Maybe they are doing it on purpose. I don't know, but whatever it is, it's not to the benfit of the common citizens of the world like you and I Larry.

[coldwhitelight]

Especially that the Mullahs have far less power than their counter-parts in Washington.

The Mullahs have all the power in the Iranian government.

This shows your lack of knowledge about Iran and its society. There are many different ethnic and religious groups living in Iran that have their respective worship places and representatives in the parliament, and all that under the rule of the Mullahs. Here they are, Orthodox Christians, Jews, Zarastorians. Zionism is not the same as Judaism eventhough many attempts are made to equate them. And for your information, Kafir is someone who doesn't believe in god and since the followers of all the above religions do, therefore they can not be considered as Kafirs and whoever does consider them as such is either misled or is misleading others or both.

Here are some 2005 facts on Iran's religious diversity.

89% Shi'ite Muslim, 10% Sunni Muslim, 1%Zoroastrian, Jewish, Christian, Baha'i

Where is the religious diversity? The little diversity that Iran dose have is put there by the Mullahs to fool the rest of the world that Iran is becoming moderate country. When everyone knows there is no moderation as long as the Mullahs are in power.

Kafir means many things denier, concealer, person who disbelieves in Islam, a person who is not of the People of the book, and not believing in God. The Mullahs believe that the only true religion is Islam and every other religions is false. Failure to believe in Islam is deemed by the Mullahs a Kafir and a bad influence.

That was a childish declaration, in the same line as the 'axis of evil' and 'outposts of tyranny' ; declarations made by over-grown children posing as serious politicians!

Iran is part of the Axis of Evil.

A. Iran is a Totalitarian Islamic Regime.

B. Iran declared America the Great Satan. The country also calls for the death and destruction of Israel.

C. Iran supports and sponsors terrorism.

The government of Iran sponsers terrorism . . . pure and simple. I am far more concerned that terrorists could get their hands on radioactive material and use it to make a "dirty" conventional bomb. That could cause significant economic consequences if detonated in any major city.

Unless something is done to stop or slow down Iran nuclear weapons ambitions there is no doubt that the country will sell weapons grade uranium to terrorist.

Edited September 28, 2005 by coldwhitelight

[Babs]

Hamas is supported by IRAN.

......What do you say to that, zep? Looks like the palestinians and the terror groups (Iran backs) aren't co-operating with the plan.

I wonder what happens now.

Edited September 27, 2005 by Babs

[zephyr]

The Mullahs have all the power in the Iranian government

which is still far less power than the power the warmongers have in the US government!

The little diversity that Iran dose have is put there by the Mullahs to fool the rest of the world that Iran is becoming moderate country

That nonsense further proves your lack of knowledge about a society you like to comment on. The Zarastorian religion is the ancient religion of the Persians. They have been around for almost 3000 years and before Islam was even born. They were put there by a few Mullah to fool the world? If I were a Zarastorian; I would take that as an insult. The same goes for the Christians (mainly Armenians), and the Jews who have been living on this land for centuries, if not milleniums. The pecentage of minorities in a society does not make them irrelevant or unimportant or fabricated, as you are suggesting! Anyway those figures that you mention need to be verified, because I have the Christians alone standing at 1%.

Kafir means many things denier, concealer, person who disbelieves in Islam

No it doesn't. Kafir means someone who does not believe in the existance of the almighty god; that's all. It DOES NOT mean someone who is not a Muslim. A Christian that believes in the god of Jesus is not a Kafir according to Islam.

The Mullahs believe that the only true religion is Islam and every other religions is false.

That's true about some, but then that belief is not unique to the Mullahs, there are people like that in every religion and government in the world.

Iran is part of the Axis of Evil.

A. Iran is a Totalitarian Islamic Regime.

B. Iran declared America the Great Satan. The country also calls for the death and destruction of Israel.

I could swear I heard the exact same thing on the evening news coming to me via satellite from the Western hemisphere, unless of course it's that new tea again! Aside repeating these slogans, do you have something new to add or do you want me to talk again about over-grown kids posing as warmongering politicians?

Unless something is done to stop or slow down Iran nuclear weapons ambitions there is no doubt that the country will sell weapons grade uranium to terrorist.

Speculations, speculations! Iran doesn't even have nukes and is not likely to have them any time soon the way things are going. I think all the focus on Iran's nuclear ambitions, eventhough good and necessary, is mainly designed to divert attention from the dangers posed by Israel's hidden and illegal nuclear arsenal. I think a fraction of the effort put into controlling Iran's ambitions should go toward countries that have not signed any treaties and continue to keep offensive nuclear weapons designed to kill masses of innocent people. I don't trust anybody with nukes, and that's regardless of race, nationality, religion or political system and find quite hypocritical the current behaviour of many countries regarding this issue.

Hamas is supported by IRAN.

......What do you say to that, zep? Looks like the palestinians and the terror groups (Iran backs) aren't co-operating with the plan.

I wonder what happens now.

Yep; I think the only solution is peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians, once that happens, all the foreign powers that might be fuelling the conflict will have to stop, won't they? Having said that, I don't think Iran holds the key to that peace. Israel, the Palestinians and the US have much more influence on the situation and if they really want peace, there will be peace even if Iran would not be okay with it.

[Baku]

The Mullahs have all the power in the Iranian government.

Here are some 2005 facts on Iran's religious diversity.

89% Shi'ite Muslim, 10% Sunni Muslim, 1%Zoroastrian, Jewish, Christian, Baha'i

Where is the religious diversity? The little diversity that Iran dose have is put there by the Mullahs to fool the rest of the world that Iran is becoming moderate country. When everyone knows there is no moderation as long as the Mullahs are in power.

Kafir means many things denier, concealer, person who disbelieves in Islam, a person who is not of the People of the book, and not believing in God. The Mullahs believe that the only true religion is Islam and every other religions is false. Failure to believe in Islam is deemed by the Mullahs a Kafir and a bad influence.

Iran is part of the Axis of Evil.

A. Iran is a Totalitarian Islamic Regime.

B. Iran declared America the Great Satan. The country also calls for the death and destruction of Israel.

C. Iran supports and sponsors terrorism.

Unless something is done to stop or slow down Iran nuclear weapons ambitions there is no doubt that the country will sell weapons grade uranium to terrorist.

I would just like to add here something to make your statement clearly and true.

The religion facts you have are not true, the Muslims (Shi'ite+Sunni) are on 90%, Zoroastrian are on 4%, Jewish on 3% and 3% other religions.

And that list of bad influence is made by the US which is at the current moment not friends with Iran, so obviously they would write about anything in there. But the question is whetter you believe everything you hear.

[Erikl]

Just a quick drop in, because I don't have alot of time to comment on all the posts (I'll do that maybe tomorrow):

The religion facts you have are not true, the Muslims (Shi'ite+Sunni) are on 90%, Zoroastrian are on 4%, Jewish on 3% and 3% other religions.

That's obviously impossible, because it would make Iranian Jewry 2 million strong, and there were never that many Jews in Iran (I think only 10,000 Jews remained in Iran after the Mullahs took over the country, with almost 100,000 escaping to Israel and the US).

Today, the largest Iranian Jewish community lives in Israel and is 100,000 people strong, and has representitives in the highest positions of the state - our president, chief of staff and minister of defense are all Iranian Jews, with two of them born in Iran and fluent in Farsi (our president and minister of defense).

[zephyr]

Today, the largest Iranian Jewish community lives in Israel and is 100,000 people strong, and has representitives in the highest positions of the state - our president, chief of staff and minister of defense are all Iranian Jews, with two of them born in Iran and fluent in Farsi (our president and minister of defense).

With all those Iranians holding high positions of state in Israel, we are where we are today with mutual agressivity between the two countries. I wonder how it would be like if those ex-compatriots weren't there to moderate some of the attitudes, or do they really.

[Erikl]

With all those Iranians holding high positions of state in Israel, we are where we are today with mutual agressivity between the two countries. I wonder how it would be like if those ex-compatriots weren't there to moderate some of the attitudes, or do they really.

Israel's attitude towards Iran has no relation to it's leaders' origin - it stems from how much danger does Iran project on Israel.

Has I said before, there is no equality here - Israel couldn't care less for Iran's existance or inexistance, yet Iran seem to be obssesed with the destruction of Israel.

Hence why our relations with Iran are pratically dictated on how Iran relate with us.

We have no war with Iran has long as it stops aspiring for our destruction.

I fail to see how you could miss such an obvious point.

Also, Iran's aspiration of our destruction is nothing short of anti-Semitism and pure racism.

Deal with it - your Mullahs are a bunch of racist bigots.