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777MileStare

Adam @ Eve, tricked by "Lucifer"?

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777MileStare

Was "Satan" the snake in Genesis possessed by the fallen angel "Lucifer" to speak to Eve of the apple that "God" had warned them both not to eat?

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Super Pancake

No! "In the christian Bible's I've read" satan or lucifer is never once mentioned talking to Adam and Eve. It only says snake or cunning snake. I think it was religious propaganda to slander the gods of another religion or society which worshiped snakes.

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Yelekiah

Was it "Lucifer" in the Apocrypha that talked to Adam and Eve?

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777MileStare
No! "In the christian Bible's I've read" satan or lucifer is never once mentioned talking to Adam and Eve. It only says snake or cunning snake. I think it was religious propaganda to slander the gods of another religion or society which worshiped snakes.

845599[/snapback]

The Catholic Bible, "Super Pancake" mentions in the book of "Genesis", that the Snake that it "Satan" spoke to Eve.

What in "WHO's" name do you mean the word "or"? Lucifer was never mentioned in the book of Genesis.

I am not talking about the Christian Bible. The Catholic Bible.

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777MileStare
Was it "Lucifer" in the Apocrypha that talked to Adam and Eve?

845619[/snapback]

GET IT STRAIGHT MAN!

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JayRob303

Ya' know...technically it was Eve that was tricked by Lucifer...then she talked man into...nevermind...lol

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Loge
 

No! "In the christian Bible's I've read" satan or lucifer is never once mentioned talking to Adam and Eve. It only says snake or cunning snake. I think it was religious propaganda to slander the gods of another religion or society which worshiped snakes. 

845599[/snapback]

user posted image

The snake of Aesculapius the Greek God of Medicine! thumbsup.gif

user posted image

Greek Symbol of Science and Medicine! thumbsup.gif

user posted image

Shiva the Hindu Creator! thumbsup.gif

user posted image

Egyptian Snake and Vulture! thumbsup.gif

user posted image

The Mayan and Aztec Savior! thumbsup.gif

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Yelekiah

"It appears that the whole story of Lucifer as Satan, the fallen rebellious angel, is based entirely on non-canonical sources: the so-called Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha. "

Go on about the Catholic Bible though.

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Super Pancake
The Catholic Bible, "Super Pancake" mentions in the book of "Genesis", that the Snake that it "Satan" spoke to Eve.

845641[/snapback]

Well I'm looking at a bible a catholic gave me the "New American Bible" which is accepted by the USCCB and guess what it does not say snake actually it says serpent, still no devil, lucifer, dragon etc.

However I'm just skeptical about it is not until in later on in other books of the bible it says the snake or serpent was the devil, lucifer, dragon, etc.. Now why is that why did it not say it in Genesis it was the devil, Why is it only in Wisdom 2:24, John 8:44, Rev 12:9 and Rev 20:2 it suggest that the snake is the devil?

What in "WHO's" name do you mean the word "or"? Lucifer was never mentioned in the book of Genesis.

845641[/snapback]

O.K. I meant satan or Lucifer as in his other known names. You know the Greeks or was it the Romans, whatever one of them had a god name Lucifer, maybe Moses was slandering his name too laugh.gif

And thanks for the pics Loge thumbsup.gif

Edited by Super Pancake

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Yelekiah

I'm not trying to get off topic (of the Catholic Bible), but there are people that insist that Lucifer and Satan are seperate beings.

Edited by Yelekiah

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Pindra
I'm not trying to get off topic (of the Catholic Bible), but there are people that insist that Lucifer and Satan are seperate beings.

845715[/snapback]

Hi everyone, I'm trying to add a view from islam perspective.

In Islam, it was Lucifer (we call him Iblees) that transformed himself into a snake and tricked Eve.

Lucifer is a demon race, and his offsprings are what we called satan.

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Ashley-Star*Child

No, the angel was Gadrel, an accusing angel (as is Satanail/Lucifer which are one and the same, he has several names) under him.

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Yelekiah

Are you talking about the Book of Enoch, Ashley-Star Child?

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Beastmode
Ya' know...technically it was Eve that was tricked by Lucifer...then she talked man into...nevermind...lol

845656[/snapback]

Acctually if you read it closer Adam was right next to Eve when it happened.

And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant F20 to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. Gen 3:6

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777MileStare

Thank you everyone, you all helped me to an extent. (Sorry to Yelekiah for blowing up a little bit, but I did aim straight for the Catholic Bible, and never heard of the Apochrypha.).

I put three hours of thought into what I asked yesterday, and I had a theory of what/who Lucifer may be. I am not sure if it works but it seems to fit. I will respond to some of the people that responded to me after and I will give you my thoughts on your responses after.

What I theorize is that Lucifer ( which means "light giver"), fell from Heaven around the time that Adam and Eve were almost fully grown enough to "reproduce". What I understand is the serpent "Satan" is whom I think is Lucifers voice and possesion over a "beast"/(wildlife?). Possesion of that beast was limited to the extent that Lucifer did not realize how to control the 'serpent' to an extent that it was probably liable to eat from the tree itself. (Or was he limited?). I wasn't quite understanding that in this, there was the survival of plant and animal life beyond the tree.

What chances of there being that Adam/Eve could have left the tree alone instead of Eve not listening to the snake, I am unsure of. What I do think is that they were originally supposed to let the tree reproduce itself in seeds and leave the apples alone.

Possible take the seeds and bury them somewhere else, and therefore "Create".

Which leads me to believe that if they had accomplished this, things would be very different today. > No kidding right? rolleyes.gif

The lesson in them not accomplishing this creative process, is brought through to Cain and Able being the benefactors of the lesson. Being that one learns to plant the seeds and be the farmer, so to "Create" and through eating "Destroying".

Of course, Cain "Destroyed" by hunting and killing the wildlife for food. Therefore with God and the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" having this as a judgement in his fate. Where it is reversed and thought of that if one ate the meat one "Creates" after "Destroying".

What do you think?

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777MileStare
I'm not trying to get off topic (of the Catholic Bible), but there are people that insist that Lucifer and Satan are seperate beings.

845715[/snapback]

My theory of this is that "Satan" the serpent, after dying is reincarnated into a large underground beast that moves through the world of "Hell". laugh.gif Call me crazy, but that was the short version. What other part of that theory is that Lucifer as being the "Light Giver", decieves that reincarnation into thinking he is 'Satan' the angelic form of that beast. In order to keep control of the world of "Hell" and those who pass through in judgement.

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777MileStare
I'm not trying to get off topic (of the Catholic Bible), but there are people that insist that Lucifer and Satan are seperate beings.

845715[/snapback]

Hi everyone, I'm trying to add a view from islam perspective.

In Islam, it was Lucifer (we call him Iblees) that transformed himself into a snake and tricked Eve.

Lucifer is a demon race, and his offsprings are what we called satan.

846158[/snapback]

This is where I was going to ask you about 'transformation'. How is that 'transformation' outlined in Islamic?

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Ashley-Star*Child

Are you telling me you don't know why satan fell? When Adam was created all the angels were asked to worship Adam. This new, 'second kind of angel' made in the image of God (angels have many and varied forms, like the Giant serpent Searphim with flaming swords, to angels cvered in eyes, etc), which became mortal after eating of the tree of knowledge and inherited mortality to him and all his descendants there-after. Technically death literally would never have touched neither Adam nor Eve etc. And they had what other angels didn't, free-will and the ability to have a mate and reproduce. The tree and fruit of which was a test of that free-will and God quite clearly explained the consequences of free-will to Adam previously. Anyway, prior to even that, the angels were asked to worship Adam and Satanail refused, and all the angels under him did so too. The archangel Michael said 'just do as God asks, worship Adam, made in the image of God', and he (satanail) refused and said 'Why should I a Son of Fire bow down to a Son of Clay. I was created before him, he should worship ME'. And so, he and the angels beneath him fell and thus became accusing angels, their thrones ripped from their places. The job of an accusing angel is to test free-will thus why Gadrel was sent as a serpent to tempt Eve. In short they faild the test, AND they were warned 'in the day that you eat of it you will surely die' and thusly, in that DAY (that day to God, being 1000 Earth years, just as the 7 days of Creation were 7000 years) or rather, 30 years off, Adam did die, and he and all his descendants inherited death/mortality, hence why humanity is a fallen race.

At one time Adam and Eve immersed themselves up to the neck in water in a river for weeks on end hoping to be granted repentance for what they had done and be allowed back into Eden (which is not on Earth, but rather, in space, as all the levels of Heaven and hell are) and the angels were there weeping before them. Satan disguised as an 'angel of light' or still Holy angel, tears running down as was so with the other angels came to Eve and said 'Eve come out of the water, God has heard you, all has been forgiven'. So, Eve gets out, and Adam sees her and satanail as who he really is and says 'Why Eve, why have you damned us again' (in so many words) then he said to satan 'why do you do this to us, what have we ever done to you!?' in which he said 'oh no, it's BECAUSE of you I have been cast out from among my bretherin and I will never cease to be after you and all your descendants for all eternity' (or, rather, for as long as the Earth prevails). An so it happened, an accusing angel wth a vendetta, once God's most favourite and given the highest power of all other angels became 'prince of this world' and all the destruction therein.

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Charlie_0978
Was it "Lucifer" in the Apocrypha that talked to Adam and Eve?

845619[/snapback]

The apocrypha of the lost books of Adam, and Eve tells that was him who trick eve , the 2 lost books tells about like...i dont remember...12 temptations...maybe 15 i dont remember, was more than one, one was on the river jordan end eve fell again, in a fight between the snake and eve and seth while those tow where heading to the garden to get Holy oil (i think) for the dying Adam so he can be cured from his sicknes, they reprehend him in the name of God , and ask him why he hate them so badly cos they havent done anything to him and he answers that because of Adam and Eve he fell from Heaven, because God comanded all his hosts angels to kneel and adore Adam because God has made him in his own image, but the serpent refuses because he felt that he was a beatifulk angel and he was in a much higher posiotion than Adam, he disobey the comand of God and was thrown away from Heaven...some say was actually Lilith the one who seduced Eve to take the forbiden fruit , because sometimes she is represented as half woman half snake just like the greek Lamia, and lets remember that there where two diferent trees one the tree of Life and the other the tree of wisdom of good and evil that was the one that had the forbiden fruit..

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TheEssenceofExcellence
And they had what other angels didn't, free-will and the ability to have a mate and reproduce.

848132[/snapback]

I agree with what you were saying except for that. Are you saying no Angels in Heaven have free will? If you are I think your some what mistaken, Satan and the other fallen Angels had free will, if they didn't they wouldn't have fallen. The other Angels have free will as well, they're just smart enough and good enough to listen to God. Maybe knowing that God doesn't have any Angels that work outside his knowledge or without his consent made you think none of the good Angels have free will, but that's not the case. They do, they're just good servants of God and obey his commands as we all should. But if any of them ever wanted to do something against God they could the same way the other fallen Angels have.

If none of God's Angels had free will Satan would have listened to God when he was told that Adam ranked higher then he did, but he didn't. Some may argue that only Satan had free will because it's said that God made Satan more powerful than any other Angel and that he was pretty much perfect.........but if Satan was the only Angel with free will the other fallen Angels wouldn't have been able to decide to follow him, even if they were under him they're loyalty would still have been to God. Satan was of the highest rank of all the Angels before he fell, so technically all of the Angels would be under him, but they didn't all fall.

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Ashley-Star*Child

Angels do not have free will in the way we do. Just as animals and all other creations don't. An animal also like all othr living things has a soul but on death does not incur judgement. Yes animals have souls and their own respective Heavens. Should a humna deal dabblely with them the animal's soul accuses them on their death. Why? Becuase a human has free will and an animal does not. So what is it exactly that defines free will? It's not the ability to think for yourself, animals can obviously do that, angels can obviously do that. Free will is defined by this sentenced as said by God to Adam 'I will see who among your race loves or abhors Me'. Devotion to God of your own free will moral choices (where He also 'explained to Adam about his free will, and the light and the dark paths') of your own free will. An angel fallen or not has devotion to God and does not (not even satan) have to ability to CHOOSE otherwise. When God tells an angel to do something they must obey. IF an angel does something against God, then like a human they are sent to their own hells and punished for a period of time and the length of the sentence. But the ability to choose that devotion and obediency is not theirs to make.

Angels cannot reproduce. Hence why the angels of Enoch fell. They took on mortal form, took an oath to fall to actually marry (and have the equipment to do so) and reproduce. They paid the price for that. But even then, it is reported they ASKED GOD TO COME HERE, as a test of whether, in man's place they'd be better than man. God said they'd be worse than man, and alas it was so.

What God wants, and the entire reason for humanity's being and free-will is devotion from your own free will. Would man, this second angel, with the ability to choose, still choose to love God?

To top that off God also said (and satan was fallen at this time) 'There is NO ONE who does not sumbit to My will' and 'there is NO ONE at war with Me'. Satan and every other fallen angel from the beginning of time are under God. Sure angels do transgress. In fact if a Cherub does not sing 'Holy' right fire springs forth from God's littel finger and torches the angel. Angel's though it should be remembered are made of FIRE, and bath in FIRE. The next morning it rises back to life again anew. Like a star, it never actually dies. God Himself has a face with the light of the Sun, emitting sparks like metalworks, eyes with torches of fire, eats and breathes fire (hence why you light a candle). God is not a bearded man in a big wite fluffy cloud. God is both 'awesome and terrifying' (quoted words there) which you quite literally in mortal form cannot see or else death will ensue (imagine the sun times a billion coming down in front of you). Things work a little qyuicker in the angelic department. If they transgress they instantly recieve punishment and in most cases become fallen. Being 'fallen' does not in any way mean they are against God. Most fallen angels by satan's request get handed over to him to 'work for him' as an accusing angel, against humanity. They are ALL still under God. However, a fallen angel has lost his place in Heaven (and whichever rank he was in) his throne gone. That is a falling star. Angels however, like stars which burnout and die and then rise up again, have time limits on their fall. And no angel wants to be fallen, not even satan, what he wants in fact (like every other fallen angel) is to back in Heaven, in God's grace with original rank etc.

Whilj there is only one level of Heaven for humans (the 3rd Heaven, paradise) the rest are inhabited by angels, heirachy dependant. There are angels which can't enter the 10th level of Heaven where God is, etc. It's a whole other ball game, angels.

Edited by Ashley-Star*Child

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777MileStare
Are you telling me you don't know why satan fell? When Adam was created all the angels were asked to worship Adam. This new, 'second kind of angel' made in the image of God (angels have many and varied forms, like the Giant serpent Searphim with flaming swords, to angels cvered in eyes, etc), which became mortal after eating of the tree of knowledge and inherited mortality to him and all his descendants there-after. Technically death literally would never have touched neither Adam nor Eve etc. And they had what other angels didn't, free-will and the ability to have a mate and reproduce. The tree and fruit of which was a test of that free-will and God quite clearly explained the consequences of free-will to Adam previously. Anyway, prior to even that, the angels were asked to worship Adam and Satanail refused, and all the angels under him did so too. The archangel Michael said 'just do as God asks, worship Adam, made in the image of God', and he (satanail) refused and said 'Why should I a Son of Fire bow down to a Son of Clay. I was created before him, he should worship ME'. And so, he and the angels beneath him fell and thus became accusing angels, their thrones ripped from their places. The job of an accusing angel is to test free-will thus why Gadrel was sent as a serpent to tempt Eve. In short they faild the test, AND they were warned 'in the day that you eat of it you will surely die' and thusly, in that DAY (that day to God, being 1000 Earth years, just as the 7 days of Creation were 7000 years) or rather, 30 years off, Adam did die, and he and all his descendants inherited death/mortality, hence why humanity is a fallen race.

At one time Adam and Eve immersed themselves up to the neck in water in a river for weeks on end hoping to be granted repentance for what they had done and be allowed back into Eden (which is not on Earth, but rather, in space, as all the levels of Heaven and hell are) and the angels were there weeping before them. Satan disguised as an 'angel of light'  or still Holy angel, tears running down as was so with the other angels came to Eve and said 'Eve come out of the water, God has heard you, all has been forgiven'. So, Eve gets out, and Adam sees her and satanail as who he really is and says 'Why Eve, why have you damned us again' (in so many words) then he said to satan 'why do you do this to us, what have we ever done to you!?' in which he said 'oh no, it's BECAUSE of you I have been cast out from among my bretherin and I will never cease to be after you and all your descendants for all eternity' (or, rather, for as long as the Earth prevails). An so it happened, an accusing angel wth a vendetta, once God's most favourite and given the highest power of all other angels became 'prince of this world' and all the destruction therein.

848132[/snapback]

I wasn't sure how to go on reading what you said, until it's totally clarified that I'm not telling you or anyone- anything. I was asking a question that relates primarily to "Lucifer" the angel that fell from "Heaven".

Sencondly, my understanding is that "Satan" didn't fall from anywhere 'heavenly' and was not considered an angel. Where "Satan" comes from> in my theory of "Lucifer" falling from "Heaven" is that "Satan" is originally the beastial side of the angel.

This in turn, the understanding that "Satan" is from the earth originally. That "Satan" is another form of "Lucifer", in the serpents afterlife. Only my question is still this: is "Satan" split between a large underground serpent/beast that dwells in the underworld/"Hell"? Is "Satan" also the named personification for one of the 3 angelic forms that "Lucifer" embodies?

Note: I use quotes so as to not offend anyone, since I have no religion anymore. I used to be Catholic. Still, I remain skeptical about Chritianity as well. But my intention it to find out what is the clearest and most plausible explanation to who "Lucifer" is in conjunction with being a "Cosmic Spirit".

"Cosmic Spirts" being "Lucifer", "Belial/Baphomet","Leviathon","Satan".

East, North, West, and South.

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777MileStare
I'm not trying to get off topic (of the Catholic Bible), but there are people that insist that Lucifer and Satan are seperate beings.

845715[/snapback]

Hi everyone, I'm trying to add a view from islam perspective.

In Islam, it was Lucifer (we call him Iblees) that transformed himself into a snake and tricked Eve.

Lucifer is a demon race, and his offsprings are what we called satan.

846158[/snapback]

I'm still waiting for your answer on the transformation issue...

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TheEssenceofExcellence
Angels do not have free will in the way we do. Just as animals and all other creations don't. An animal also like all othr living things has a soul but on death does not incur judgement. Yes animals have souls and their own respective Heavens. Should a humna deal dabblely with them the animal's soul accuses them on their death. Why? Becuase a human has free will and an animal does not. So what is it exactly that defines free will? It's not the ability to think for yourself, animals can obviously do that, angels can obviously do that. Free will is defined by this sentenced as said by God to Adam 'I will see who among your race loves or abhors Me'. Devotion to God of your own free will moral choices (where He also 'explained to Adam about his free will, and the light and the dark paths') of your own free will. An angel fallen or not has devotion to God and does not (not even satan) have to ability to CHOOSE otherwise. When God tells an angel to do something they must obey. IF an angel does something against God, then like a human they are sent to their own hells and punished for a period of time and the length of the sentence. But the ability to choose that devotion and obediency is not theirs to make.

Angels cannot reproduce. Hence why the angels of Enoch fell. They took on mortal form, took an oath to fall to actually marry (and have the equipment to do so) and reproduce. They paid the price for that. But even then, it is reported they ASKED GOD TO COME HERE, as a test of whether, in man's place they'd be better than man. God said they'd be worse than man, and alas it was so.

What God wants, and the entire reason for humanity's being and free-will is devotion from your own free will. Would man, this second angel, with the ability to choose, still choose to love God?

To top that off God also said (and satan was fallen at this time) 'There is NO ONE who does not sumbit to My will' and 'there is NO ONE at war with Me'. Satan and every other fallen angel from the beginning of time are under God. Sure angels do transgress. In fact if a Cherub does not sing 'Holy' right fire springs forth from God's littel finger and torches the angel. Angel's though it should be remembered are made of FIRE, and bath in FIRE. The next morning it rises back to life again anew. Like a star, it never actually dies. God Himself has a face with the light of the Sun, emitting sparks like metalworks, eyes with torches of fire, eats and breathes fire (hence why you light a candle). God is not a bearded man in a big wite fluffy cloud. God is both 'awesome and terrifying' (quoted words there) which you quite literally in mortal form cannot see or else death will ensue (imagine the sun times a billion coming down in front of you). Things work a little qyuicker in the angelic department. If they transgress they instantly recieve punishment and in most cases become fallen. Being 'fallen' does not in any way mean they are against God. Most fallen angels by satan's request get handed over to him to 'work for him' as an accusing angel, against humanity. They are ALL still under God. However, a fallen angel has lost his place in Heaven (and whichever rank he was in) his throne gone. That is a falling star. Angels however, like stars which burnout and die and then rise up again, have time limits on their fall. And no angel wants to be fallen, not even satan, what he wants in fact (like every other fallen angel) is to back in Heaven, in God's grace with original rank etc.

Whilj there is only one level of Heaven for humans (the 3rd Heaven, paradise) the rest are inhabited by angels, heirachy dependant. There are angels which can't enter the 10th level of Heaven where God is, etc. It's a whole other ball game, angels.

848236[/snapback]

You pretty much said what I was saying at one point, which is that they can think for themselves and make their own choices, that's how I define free will.

You keep using the example of them not being able to reproduce as a sign that shows they don't have free will; but just because they can't reproduce doesn't mean they don't have free will. They're spiritual beings that live forever so they don't need to reproduce to continue their species; it's not a restriction, it's simply something that's not needed. Besides, if they did want to (they are capable) of reproducing, they would just have to reproduce with man instead of themselves.

Everything you've been saying is true but let me put it this way: If Angels don't have free will either do we. The fact is all life has free will, we can all think or act on our own accord, but when it gets down to it our life still belongs to God because he created us. That's why no one can really lose their soul or sell it to the devil, because your soul will always belong to God, he will always have power over everything and everyone. So when it comes down to it, we all have free will, but we all still belong to God.

You said free will is defined by what God said to Adam which is moral choices and devotion, and we get punished if we don't. But that's the same as an Angel who has the choice to obey Gods commands or not to, and then getting punished for not obeying isn't it?

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Nadal
Was "Satan" the snake in Genesis possessed by the fallen angel "Lucifer" to speak to Eve of the apple that "God" had warned them both not to eat?

845564[/snapback]

No, he wasn't because it never happened.

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