Revelations

[Beggars]

i've read some of the revelations in the bible and i was just wondering what they mean and if someone can at least help me with understanding what they mean

[GIDEON MAGE]

the book of revelations is a political tract condemning the roman empire. the symbolism was very obvious to the readers at the time. the beast, for example, was nero caesar, and so on. the church councils, almost 400 years later, decided by a marginal vote to put in in the n.t. the "prophecies", however, were all fulfilled a long time ago. religious fanatics for 1500 years have always iunterpreted it as referring to their own time, i.e., it's always the last days and Yeshua ben Yosef is on his way back "right now". in reality, this type of political tract was very common at the time.

[+Paranoid Android]

Hey Juno - The book of Revelation is huge - is there anything specific you wanted to know about it? I don't know if I can answer your questions, but I'll give you what knowledge I can. Revelation is full of imagery and symbolism which could mean many things, and no one can claim to be right or wrong about any of it (Gideon probably got his info on the stab at the Romans from his Rabbi jk)

Regards, PA

btw, cool avatar

[starlitkate]

the book of revelations is a political tract condemning the roman empire. the symbolism was very obvious to the readers at the time. the beast, for example, was nero caesar, and so on. the church councils, almost 400 years later, decided by a marginal vote to put in in the n.t. the "prophecies", however, were all fulfilled a long time ago. religious fanatics for 1500 years have always iunterpreted it as referring to their own time, i.e., it's always the last days and Yeshua ben Yosef is on his way back "right now". in reality, this type of political tract was very common at the time.

I beleive Juno was asking about they're meaning rather than they're authenticity.

[starlitkate]

Android is right Juno, it is alot of detailed work that went into it. Is there anything specific that you wanna know?? You could ask me anything and I could most likely help you.

[mako]

Actually GM is closer to the facts....Revelations was not accepted by the early Christians and it wasn't until the 9th or 10th centuries that it even began being inserted in the bible and then only in that weird section between the OT and NT. Finally in the 15th century, when the canonization of the bible was finalized, it was accepted into the NT. Being closer to the time of Jesus and the writing of Reveleations, I would think that the ancient church fathers would have a better idea of what was the truth and what wasn't.

[draconic chronicler]

Gideon is correct in his statement that Revelation referred to the early Christian religion's trials and tribulations with the Roman Empire. The truth is in the writers own words. This tract was written by John of Patmos, perhaps the same John the apostle, while exiled to the island of Patmos by the emperor Domitian circa 90 AD/CE. The writer clearly states that the events would happen "very soon" and it that generation.

Obviously, these event didn't happend when the writer said they did, therefore the logical conclusion is that they are a "false prophecy". Also some of the things said in it, must be seriously questioned. For example, why does the red dragon Satan share exactly the same fate as the evil dragon god of the pagan Zorastrian religion, bound in chains in cast into an abyss for a thousand years? Also why is there a Greek Hades being presided over by a Greek God, when there is no Hades in the Old Testament? The writer of Revelation simply plagerized the myths of other religions to make up this "story", and it is a wonder how millions of people still cannot understand this simple truth.

If the events in Revelation are still going to happen, it would only be because God has a wicked and ironic sense of humor, and intends to punish the human race (in the same way the charlatan writer John dreamed up), for the blasphemous crime of modern "christians" to take such blatantly pagan, fairy tale nonsense so seriously, and dare regard this drivel as true, holy scipture.

Edited September 22, 2005 by draconic chronicler

[Heru]

Or how i figured it was kinda off was by reading. It just seemed kinda different and silly compared to the old testiment.

Anyone else imagine the 60s when they read the book of the apostles(mathew mark....)?

[Beggars]

i was just waondering if they like,mean anything now,in the modern times cause some of the things they talk about are pretty confusing

[Ashley-Star*Child]

Revelations has similarities to many othr books and is by far not 'silly' The descriptions of angels therein are exteremely accurate.

What part are you interested in?

[Beggars]

i'm mostly interested in the part with the seven angels and they make different things happen

[Something Like Laughter]

Actually GM is closer to the facts....Revelations was not accepted by the early Christians and it wasn't until the 9th or 10th centuries that it even began being inserted in the bible and then only in that weird section between the OT and NT. Finally in the 15th century, when the canonization of the bible was finalized, it was accepted into the NT. Being closer to the time of Jesus and the writing of Reveleations, I would think that the ancient church fathers would have a better idea of what was the truth and what wasn't.

mako, im quite disappointed in you. codex Sinaiticus from the mid 4th century has the entire NT including Revelation. it even recieves support from the ECF as the following link illustrates very nicely.

http://ntcanon.org/table.shtml

[stillcrazy]

[GIDEON MAGE]

mako, im quite disappointed in you. codex Sinaiticus from the mid 4th century has the entire NT including Revelation. it even recieves support from the ECF as the following link illustrates very nicely.

http://ntcanon.org/table.shtml

right, just around the time of the first three church councils. is there only one copy?has it been carbon-dated?is the writing consistent with the greek of Yeshu's time?

[Something Like Laughter]

is there only one copy?

of codex Sinaiticus? yes. every biblical manuscript recieves a unique name. in this case, codex denotes the type of manuscript, a book instead of a scroll or a sheet of papyrus, and Sinaiticus is the actual name of the manuscript. its named for the monastery in which is was found.

of Revelation? no. there are a few earlier manuscripts. p47 is from the 3rd century which is the earliest manuscript i know of. Justin Martyr acknowledges the book's existance in one of his works from the mid second century.

has it been carbon-dated?

i dont know. why does it matter? i think ive said this before, but dating a document by its earliest manuscript is a very poor way of doing things. apply it to nonchristian works and the works of Josephus, Tacitus, Plato, and Julius Ceasar are all products of the 8th century or later.

is the writing consistent with the greek of Yeshu's time?

i dont know.

[mako]

mako, im quite disappointed in you. codex Sinaiticus from the mid 4th century has the entire NT including Revelation. it even recieves support from the ECF as the following link illustrates very nicely.

But, it wasn't included in other codices of the same period or slightly later periods. There was no Canon at that time, unless you wish to admit that Contantine did in fact set a canon - your call on that! It wasn't until the 12th century that Revelations was officially accepted into the NT and the canonization of the NT was not completed until the 1400's.

is the writing consistent with the greek of Yeshu's time?

My understanding is that it is not consistent with the Greek of the 1st century, by the time of the Codex in question, Revelations had nearly 3 centuries to be modifed from the original Jewish apocalypic document . "Although the apocalypse does not quote directly, within its four hundred or so verses are about five hundred and fifty references to the Old Testament (B. F. Westcott and F. J. A. Hort, Greek New Testament, 184 ff.) Its core – several apocalyptic endings badly stitched together – was later given a Christian preface: a series of seven angry letters, chastising seven errant churches in western Asia Minor. Having berated the churches, Revelation then unleashes a relentless apocalyptic nightmare, badly written, repetitive and self-contradictory. Chapter after chapter it details bizarre horrors, the supposed fate that imminently will befall the enemies of the Lord. It is the latter which gives the book its enduring popularity – a vision of the gore-fest at the End of Time." - K. Humphreys, "Jesus Never Existed"

Edited September 26, 2005 by mako

[Something Like Laughter]

It wasn't until the 12th century that Revelations was officially accepted into the NT

third synod of carthage was the first council to put into canon the current NT. IIRC it was held in 398 or something like that.

[mako]

but you forgot to mention - it was not formally accepted by all churches.

[Ken1Burton]

Juno.

Revelation is looking at the day of the cross as 7 time periods, all the different sevens is the same thing.

7 mountains=7 churches=7 trumpets=7 seals=7 candlesticks=7 plagues

7 eyes= 7 spirits=7 stars=7 lamps=7 horns=7 crowns=7 heads=7 seals

7 angels sounding=The day of the cross seen as 7 time periods. Isa 30:26

7 times=Day seen as 4 6-hr periods, 2 12-hour periods, 1 24-hour period

The Angels sounding: Sunset to Midnight is the first 6-hour period, the time of the last Supper.

(REVELATION 8:7) The first angel sounded, and there followed hail

and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and

the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. (KJV)

God’s word is like as a fire in Jeremiah 23:29, Jesus poured out God’s word at the Last supper, the Hail is Judas saying “Hail Master” as he kissed Jesus, Mingled with blood is as Peter cut off the ear during that time. Jesus made all things cursed because He took sin, All flesh as grass, All made one in Christ, all as dead or burnt up because of sin. Seeing one picture is a third of the trees burnt up.

Second angel or time period is Midnight to sunrise.

(REVELATION 8:8) And the second angel sounded, and as it were a

great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the

third part of the sea became blood; (KJV)

At midnight, the Disciples have Faith like a mustard seed, NO FAITH AT ALL. Jesus is the Mountain, Reaching for the world, Non-Jews alike likened to waters. Or cast into the sea or the gathering together of the people as waters. Seeing one of the three pictures or a third.

Third angel is Sunrise to noon. the time Jesus was judged:

(REVELATION 8:10) And the third angel sounded, and there fell a

great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon

the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; (KJV)

(REVELATION 8:11) And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and

the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of

the waters, because they were made bitter. (KJV)

Jesus made all things cursed, He is even as the earth, Earth destroyed by fire is Jesus died by God’s word like as a fire. Stars are for signs, This is a sign of the Judgment falling on Christ from Sunrise to Noon:

(AMOS 5:7) Ye who turn judgment to wormwood, and leave off

righteousness in the earth, (KJV)

Fourth angel is Noon to sunset the time Jesus died, Fourth seal is the Pale Horse, death followed by Hell.

(REVELATION 8:12) And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part

of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the

third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened,

and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night

likewise. (KJV)

Because the Creation story is also a similitude for the day of the cross, the fourth day God makes two great lights. Sun seen as the throne in Psalms 89:36, Darkened by Jesus dying and they think it is the end. Moon seen as the establishment of the throne in Psalms 89:37 turned to blood as the blood of Christ established the throne. A third is smitten as one of the three pictures is fulfilled.

(REVELATION 9:1) And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall

from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the

bottomless pit. (KJV)

This starts the second picture, likened to the Second day or Jesus in Hell. The day is as 2 12-hour periods. The day as the Heart of the earth, both seen as the WHOLE Heart. Also seen as a sword, the day as 2 12-hour periods as a two edge sword.

Fifth time is Sunset to Sunrise.

Sixth is Sunrise to Sunset. the second 12-hour period.

(REVELATION 9:13) And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice

from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, (KJV)

(REVELATION 9:14) Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet,

Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates. (KJV)

Because a Third was seen at a time, this is going back and looking at it again, It has to be doubled twice to be established by God, then all brought to pass in the seventh time period, or the day seen as a full 24 hour period, making all as Truth.

(REVELATION 11:15) And the seventh angel sounded; and there were

great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are

become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall

reign for ever and ever. (KJV)

The day of the cross is a day taken out of time, the name of the day is “For ever” For ever and ever is the day of the cross, and everlasting future, Everlasting past was before the day of the cross.

The day as 4 6-hour periods, Old Heaven was Sunset to Midnight, Old Earth was Midnight to sunrise, Heaven and earth flee from His Face seen as the Face of a man on the third beast with 6-wings which is Sunrise to noon or New Earth, New Heaven is Noon to sunset.

(MATTHEW 5:18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth

pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law,

till all be fulfilled. (KJV)

John is in the Spirit on the Lord day, or seeing the day of the cross.

The day is as a house built:

(PROVERBS 9:1) Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her

seven pillars: (KJV)

The name of the House is the “Wilderness” it is where Jesus was taken to be tempted, or taken by the Spirit to the day of the cross so He could see what He would have to go through. Then He is given 42 Months to continue, or goes back and for three and a half years Shows His servant or the Disciples what must shortly come to pass, of His going to the cross.

Ken

[Beggars]

thank you kind sir

[antiaging]

thank you kind sir

I don't take anything that Ken says about prophecy seriously. He thinks all prophecy has to do with Jesus; it doesn't.

Revelation is a series of disconnected visions. They are not given in the proper chronicological order in which they will happen. They are given in the order that John saw them. You need to fill in the order in which they happen by what is said, and what it is referring to; you need to know the whole book very well to do that.

Revelation is referring to the last 7 years up to the end of the world when Jesus comes back. 7 seals have to do with the reign of a future world tyrant, the antichrist, and the war he will make and the results of that war, and the persecution of the saints.

The 7 trumpets are punishments from God, on the world because they refuse to repent of their sins; murder, fornication, sorcery, etc. The 7 vials, are the last and worse plagues which will happen during the last 3 and a half years, till the end.

The last 3.5 years is called the great tribulation; a time of trouble that will be worse than anything the world will ever see.

Jesus comes back at the end of the 7 years and the dead Christians come back to life and the living christians and the risen christians will be levitated up to meet Jesus in the air.

Jesus is coming back with many angels. If angels fly ufos, it will probably be a ufo invasion. Jesus and the saints and the angels will come down together and take over the world by force. A 1000 year period of peace will follow. Satan will be allowed after that to deceive men for awhile, and the wicked men that are deceived will be destroyed. Then a New city will be on the Earth, the New Jerusalem, where the saints will live forever in happiness and great riches; living in mansions and walking on streets of gold, with walls lined with rubies, and emeralds and diamonds and other precious stones. Always bright, there is no night there. No more tears, or pain or sorrow. The former things are gone.

The people that did not become Christians will be burning in a lake of fire suffering forever.

That is the sort of thing that Revelation is about.