Israelis urge U.S. to stop Iran's nuke goals

[Babs]

I think you are silly. My husband and I would join, if we could, if they'd take us. Maybe when they do get around to older folk, after they exhaust the younger set, then he and I will have a chance. We'd love to fight for our country. How about you? Don't you want to fight for your country?

It still goes what I said about people, some people, taking the easy road out. It's parasitic for a person to live in the U.S. and run for Canada when the country goes to war. It's downright traitorous.

My nephew just came back from Iraq and he's going back if they call him up again; he's sort of standing by. My father was in WWII., he bombed Germany and Japan. My grandfather was in WWI. Our family is patriotic.

If people really do believe in their convictions and really do think the country is doing wrong, then I understand. But you know who and what I am talking about, Stellar. I think this has been off topic long enough and it's nothing new about how I think or what I believe. You seem to be unduly interested in this subject, why don't you start a thread on it? Maybe you could learn something.

[Fluffybunny]

It still goes what I said about people, some people, taking the easy road out. It's parasitic for a person to live in the U.S. and run for Canada when the country goes to war. It's downright traitorous.

That is so easy to say when you are sitting in your nice comfy home without the slightest fear of EVER having to go to war.

[Stellar]

I think you are silly. My husband and I would join, if we could, if they'd take us. Maybe when they do get around to older folk, after they exhaust the younger set, then he and I will have a chance. We'd love to fight for our country.

Have you tried enlisting? How old are you? They'd always be able to find something for you.

How about you? Don't you want to fight for your country?

No. Fighting for your country is a silly concept IMO. I want to fight for what is good and right, not simply for my country no matter what it does. Fighting for you country is something you seem to want people to do.

And if you'd love to fight for your country, and you want others to fight for your country, why havent you enlisted long ago?

[Babs]

Uh, oh. You don't want to fight for your country??? Just what I thought. Well Well.

There you go folks, right out of the horse's mouth. You are one of those people I am talking about. That's why it bothers you so much what I say.

Any young man who doesn't want to sacrifice or fight for his country, when that country is in need, ought to be deeply ashamed. How can you live here, on the take?

...wait a minute, maybe you don't live in the U.S. .

[Stellar]

Uh, oh. You don't want to fight for your country??? blink.gif Just what I thought. cool.gif Well Well.

There you go folks, right out of the horse's mouth. You are one of those people I am talking about. That's why it bothers you so much what I say.

Im amazed that you still said that (althought I dont know why, because I expected it from you. Thats why I phrased what I said the way I did). I said Id want to fight for whats good and right, but said I wouldnt simply fight "for my country". Do you want to know why? Fighting for your country means fighting for your country, whether its doing good or bad, the right or the wrong. The germans were fighting for their country in WW2. The Japanese in WW2. The Viet Cong. Hell, some of the Iraqi insurgents are fighting for their country. Fighting for good/right, however, is simply that, fighting for the good and the right only, meaning fighting to protect your country *and other people not from your country* if its the good and the right thing to do. So... is that "just what you thought?" I'm still one of those people huh?

Thats why I joined the army. What about you Babs?

Any young man who doesn't want to sacrifice or fight for his country, when that country is in need, ought to be deeply ashamed. How can you live here, on the take?

Where were you in the cold war? Where are you now?

You should be ashamed of YOURself. Not only because you are hipocritically saying people should fight for their country without doing so yourself, but because of the selfishness your advocating, saying people should fight for *their* country, instead of saying they should fight for *humanity*. You should be deeply, deeply ashamed of yourself.

Edited October 10, 2005 by Stellar

[Babs]

Been trying to get you to say that you were a soldier for a while now....why didn't you admit to it, when I asked? Oh, I see you were trying to lay a trap for me. I remember from way back when you told us that you were a soldier, but we never got to hear your story... or at least I didn't. Sorry you didn't trap me; you are kind of crude in your way of doing things trying to score a point.

Now what's your take on this? Oh, a soldier with a new philosophy. I get it. You are above it all... right? You are better now, and won't fight for your country, unless it's under your (new) rules.

That's a cop-out and you know it.

I have been working for humanity in my job every day of my life. Dealing in the domestic violence field isn't exactly sitting in an arm chair, you know. My job required working with violent people and the police every day. I also work privately for domestic violence...including stalking victims, today, and I can tell you my job is one of the most dangerous there is, especially for a woman. Here I am, serving my country and if my country needed me (for war), I'd be there. ....Not you eh? Just what I thought. I am an older female and I'd go at the drop of a hat.... but here you are, a young vital (ex-soldier) man and I repeat MAN, and you won't fight for your country! What a joke.

You don't have ANY philosophy!..... and....please spare us 'that humanity bit'.

You are trying to sway young people on this board to do and feel as yourself. You ought to be ashamed.

Edited October 10, 2005 by Babs

[Babs]

Stellar....Hey, I got my gun and I'm on the ready! Can't you fix me up with an enlistment office? You were a soldier weren't you... or maybe I got you mixed up with someone braver.

Here is where I asked you your status as a soldier...p.5, I think it was. To which you replied, "What's that supposed to mean?"

[Stellar]

Sorry you didn't trap me

Oh no? Apparently, you dont care if someone fights for what is good and right. You clearly admitted that in your post.

Now what's your take on this? Oh, a soldier with a new philosophy. I get it. You are above it all... right? You are better now, and won't fight for your country, unless it's under your (new) rules.

"Above it all"? Like I said, I'll fight for what is good and right. If my country is invaded, I'll fight. If my country needs to be protected, sure thing. If my country is out to exterminate a certain culture? Sorry, I wont do what is wrong. And thats not a cop out at all.

And its quite ironic that a civvy without military service is talking to a soldier the way you are.

I have been working for humanity in my job every day of my life. Dealing in the domestic violence field isn't exactly sitting in an arm chair, you know. My job required working with violent people and the police every day. I also work privately for domestic violence...including stalking victims, today, and I can tell you my job is one of the most dangerous there is, especially for a woman.

And then you say other people should join the military? Hypocrite.

Here I am, serving my country and if my country needed me (for war), I'd be there.

Where were you during the cold war? Your country needed you.

Not you eh? Just what I thought. I am an older female and I'd go at the drop of a hat.... but here you are, a young vital (ex-soldier) man and I repeat MAN, and you won't fight for your country! What a joke.

ex soldier? Drop the ex first of all. You want to know whats a joke? You're a joke. Like I said, when I fight, its not to fight for my country, but to do whats right. Fighting for your country is not only selfish, but means you fight for it whether its doing good or bad. Personally, Id fight for everyone, be it canadians, americans, afghanis, whoever... but not if its to commit a crime... not to do something wrong, something to the effect of what the Nazis did during WW2. I'd fight for the wellbeing of others, justice and freedom, thats what I'd fight for. If my country needed me to fight for it, as it is now, I would. If it became a terrorist state and needed me to fight for it, I wouldnt, because my concern is doing whats right. Got that?

You are trying to sway young people on this board to do and feel as yourself. You ought to be ashamed.

Its not me who should be ashamed of myself for being ready to fight for what is good and right, for freedom and justice for everyone/anyone, its you who should be ashamed for hypocritically calling for people to fight for their own country only whether it does good or evil, instead of calling people to fight for everyones, and not fighting for evil reasons.

Here is where I asked you your status as a soldier...p.5, I think it was. To which you replied, "What's that supposed to mean?"

And whats your point?

[Babs]

Whoa! Now we get down to the real problem here. You are saying things I haven't said. Try not to assume.

I have never said fight for your country right or wrong. This is your interpretation of something I have said, somewhere, god knows.

I have never said that. You are treading on dangerous ground if you tell people not to fight for their country, but to only fight for mankind and the good for all when there is a terror war going on and our country needs to be secure. Remember 911?

You may not believe this, but I knew you were going there, as fluffy seems to go there, too. My point is, I 'don't' think you have a point. Don't tell the young people to do as you do or think as you think, just because you have been in the service (which carries some weight and responsibility) because you want to stop a poltical viewpoint. And because you don't like what the U.S. is doing on the war in Irag... or the entire war on terror. It will be on your head if young people follow what you say and their country gets into trouble.

Get yourself out of the cosmos, I hate that cosmic crap. There is another section on metaphysics, here, why don't you visit that part of the forum.

[Babs]

Hey, Stellar...have you got any ideas on this topic???

...back to topic. "Israelis urge U.S. to stop Iran's nuke goals"

[Stellar]

I have never said fight for your country right or wrong. huh.gif This is your interpretation of something I have said, somewhere, god knows.

No, that is what it means when it is said without exceptions.

You are treading on dangerous ground if you tell people not to fight for their country, but to only fight for mankind and the good for all when there is a terror war going on and our country needs to be secure. Remember 911?

How would that change anything regarding the war on terror and 911? It is not more dangerouse, it is more noble.

Don't tell the young people to do as you do or think as you think, just because you have been in the service (which carries some weight and responsibility) because you want to stop a poltical viewpoint.

Im not saying it to stop a political viewpoint. I bet you dont even know what political viewpoint I have. I think its you who should stop telling people to do as you think, not just because it is selfish, but because its hipocritical of you to do so.

And because you don't like what the U.S. is doing on the war in Irag... or the entire war on terror.

Wow, how hipocritical. YOu tell me to try not to assume, and then you say this?

Get yourself out of the cosmos, I hate that cosmic crap. There is another section on metaphysics, here, why don't you visit that part of the forum.

And if you wish to keep preaching, do so in the spirituality section.

Hey, Stellar...have you got any ideas on this topic???

Yes, I think it would benifit if you left it.

[Erikl]

ex soldier? Drop the ex first of all. You want to know whats a joke? You're a joke. Like I said, when I fight, its not to fight for my country, but to do whats right. Fighting for your country is not only selfish, but means you fight for it whether its doing good or bad. Personally, Id fight for everyone, be it canadians, americans, afghanis, whoever... but not if its to commit a crime... not to do something wrong, something to the effect of what the Nazis did during WW2. I'd fight for the wellbeing of others, justice and freedom, thats what I'd fight for. If my country needed me to fight for it, as it is now, I would. If it became a terrorist state and needed me to fight for it, I wouldnt, because my concern is doing whats right. Got that?

Just wanted to say Stellar that I sign on this outstanding paragraph with my name on it.

It's like reading my own manifesto.

Just shows how two soldiers from different militaries share similar values

[Babs]

I'm going back to topic. I'm sure you would like me to leave this topic.... and I know why. It's ironic how the mods don't come on and tell us to get back on topic... Except for fluffy, of course, he came on to chime in because he was a soldier and sees things similarly to you. Wow!... fairness abounds around here.

Well, it's a liberal view on the war, here, and I pray this sort of attitude doesn't get into power. We have a war going on, a world-wide war on terror, and I know we'd lose if this kind of thinking prevailed. I'm glad you are not one of my neighbors, Stellar.

.......look at you, another guy who doesn't display his country on his avatar.

Sorry, I'm not leaving; I like this topic. You can't stop me from telling my views.

[Stellar]

You seem to use "im getting back on topic" as an excuse to avoid my questions, while you go on ranting off topic.

[Babs]

I think what zep says is credible and makes sense, alot of sense, but how long can we listen to his talk? I agree with most of what he says, but it doesn't look good what his country is doing. Pardon me, what the media is saying it is doing. I realize the media says things that Washington wants it to say and most news items are filtered through the government, but are we going to believe zep and just pray for the best? I mean what do you want us to do, zep? How can anyone, one person... or even a group of people, go against the flow?...and what if zep really doesn't know all the horrible stuff his mullahs have done...or are doing? We are in a fix... and we are going to have to bite the bullet. We 'have' to trust our government and trust that our country is doing the best it can to keep us safe.

We've been 911ed, we sure don't need that again...... or worse.

[Stellar]

We've been 911ed, we sure don't need that again...... or wors

You seem to think that thats an excuse to do whatever you want.

Babbs, what do you propose the world does about Iran?

[zephyr]

I think what zep says is credible and makes sense, alot of sense, but how long can we listen to his talk? I agree with most of what he says, but it doesn't look good what his country is doing. Pardon me, what the media is saying it is doing. I realize the media says things that Washington wants it to say and most news items are filtered through the government, but are we going to believe zep and just pray for the best? I mean what do you want us to do, zep? How can anyone, one person... or even a group of people, go against the flow?...and what if zep really doesn't know all the horrible stuff his mullahs have done...or are doing? We are in a fix... and we are going to have to bite the bullet. We 'have' to trust our government and trust that our country is doing the best it can to keep us safe.

We've been 911ed, we sure don't need that again...... or worse.

Thank you Babs for considering as 'credible' what I say. No, you don't have to believe everything I say, but you sure can and should pray for the best. What do I want you to do? Well, for starters it would be a good idea not to nuke me. Then, I would like to see the US government put some of its political might into trying to re-establish the long overdue and badly needed diplomatic relations with Iran; that move would have the support of the majority of the Iranians and would put extreme pressure on the Iranian government to duplicate the US initiative. I read in the newspaper the other day that a group of foreign policy experts in Washington have proposed to Rice the establishment of an American consulate in Tehran. This is the most reasonable and certainly the most useful proposal I have heard for a long a time coming out of Washington concerning Iran. Threats and name callings have been going on for 25 years and it has obviously not led to anything positive, it's time to seriously try the diplomatic option, you would be surprised of the results that could achieve.

I have mentioned before that not only me, but many Iranians know what their government is doing, it's just impossible to make things move in the right direction amid the daily external military threats facing this country. The absense of such threats would be a tremendous help for all the progressive and democratic forces in Iran.

One sur way your government could keep you safe is if they concentrate less on the use of military force or threats and use more intelligent and delicate ways of dealing with the world. Do you think the present team in Washington is capable of that or is their intelligence limited to bullying their way around?

[Baku]

Hey, there is this giant earthquake in Pakistan. I remember when the terrorists were laughing and praising hurricane Katrina's effect on the U.S.. Now it's our turn! Hey, do you think the Al Qaeda boyx were buried?!

I think it is terrible, the tragedy and the people who were killed....I heard thirty thousand died. The news said that the way we conduct the war on terror will be changed, now, because of this giant earthquake. Yeah! Lots of terrorists are dead! Maybe even Osama Bin Laden has gone under. There is a silver lining.

...some of us know that the Al Qaeda is hold up in Pakistan....many on the border.

The U.S. stands ready to help Pakistan as they helped us with hurricane Katrina.

Yeah at the cost of about 30,000 people, this is nothing to make fun of or even laugh at

Edited October 11, 2005 by Baku

[Babs]

Yeah at the cost of about 30,000 people, this is nothing to make fun of or even laugh at

Oh, it is alright for the terrorists to laugh and celebrate 911 and hurricane Katrina, but when we get happy cause the terrorists might have died, you don't like that?

TOUGH

....isn't it like Baku to ignore the fact that I think the earthquake is horrible.... and that we stand ready to help Pakistan as they helped us with hurricane Katrina? If Baku would go onto the earthquake thread he would read some of what I have said. Shame on you, Baku.

[Babs]

You seem to think that thats an excuse to do whatever you want.

Babbs, what do you propose the world does about Iran?

Better yet, what does Stellar propose? I don't even know what your principles are. We don't seem to be on the same page, here, while some of your posting, I don't even comprehend. I know you have these high-blown ideals and won't go to war unless these principles are met. What do you say to your superiors on a day when your country hasn't quite come up to your standards? ... "Sorry, sarg, but I can't go today.".... I can't fight today, and I can't save my countrymen today because you guys haven't met my moral standards."

[wunarmdscissor]

Oh, it is alright for the terrorists to laugh and celebrate 911 and hurricane Katrina, but when we get happy cause the terrorists might have died, you don't like that?

this is a new low fo even you babs

Hey, there is this giant earthquake in Pakistan. I remember when the terrorists were laughing and praising hurricane Katrina's effect on the U.S.. Now it's our turn! Hey, do you think the Al Qaeda boyx were buried?!

I think it is terrible, the tragedy and the people who were killed....I heard thirty thousand died. The news said that the way we conduct the war on terror will be changed, now, because of this giant earthquake. Yeah! Lots of terrorists are dead! Maybe even Osama Bin Laden has gone under. There is a silver lining.

you are the only person on this forum of making such an ignorant and insulting post.

just how many of the 15 thousand children who are dead were terrorists? you twit.

ok by your logic, then 9/11 was ok in the end cause they prolly bumped of a few criminals , here and they there, perhaps some people who hade donated to the IRA woohoo.

you really amaze me.

an not in a good way

[Babs]

For a minute there, I thought you changed your name to Stellar.

As usual, wun, you take it wrong.

.... That is sad what you think.

[Babs]

Thank you Babs for considering as 'credible' what I say. No, you don't have to believe everything I say, but you sure can and should pray for the best. What do I want you to do? Well, for starters it would be a good idea not to nuke me. Then, I would like to see the US government put some of its political might into trying to re-establish the long overdue and badly needed diplomatic relations with Iran; that move would have the support of the majority of the Iranians and would put extreme pressure on the Iranian government to duplicate the US initiative. I read in the newspaper the other day that a group of foreign policy experts in Washington have proposed to Rice the establishment of an American consulate in Tehran. This is the most reasonable and certainly the most useful proposal I have heard for a long a time coming out of Washington concerning Iran. Threats and name callings have been going on for 25 years and it has obviously not led to anything positive, it's time to seriously try the diplomatic option, you would be surprised of the results that could achieve.

I have mentioned before that not only me, but many Iranians know what their government is doing, it's just impossible to make things move in the right direction amid the daily external military threats facing this country. The absense of such threats would be a tremendous help for all the progressive and democratic forces in Iran.

One sur way your government could keep you safe is if they concentrate less on the use of military force or threats and use more intelligent and delicate ways of dealing with the world. Do you think the present team in Washington is capable of that or is their intelligence limited to bullying their way around?

That sounds good to me, using diplomacy. Do you think it will work? And what did you expect out of this administration after 911? If we could make a big contact with Iranian people it would be great. All these if's.

I am trying to look something up on an earlier post of yours, it is relevant to what you are saying now. I'll talk at you later! ...Babs

[I am me]

Oh, it is alright for the terrorists to laugh and celebrate 911 and hurricane Katrina, but when we get happy cause the terrorists might have died, you don't like that?

TOUGH

....isn't it like Baku to ignore the fact that I think the earthquake is horrible.... and that we stand ready to help Pakistan as they helped us with hurricane Katrina? If Baku would go onto the earthquake thread he would read some of what I have said. Shame on you, Baku.

babs, acting like the terrorists do makes you no better than them. you should know that.

[Stellar]

Better yet, what does Stellar propose?

No, what do you propose? I asked you first. Answer me and I'll answer you.

In reality, I think you know exactly what my response is going to be, hence you're avoiding answering my question.

What do you say to your superiors on a day when your country hasn't quite come up to your standards? ... "Sorry, sarg, but I can't go today.".... I can't fight today, and I can't save my countrymen today because you guys haven't met my moral standards."

On the day that my country is fighting for evil reasons (Hmm, lets put this situation up to the table. Canada, for whatever unlikely reason, decides that americans are infidels and wants to terrorise the US, much like Al Qaida wants to do to the US right now) I'll say "Sorry, but it is my duty to disobey a manifestly unlawful command such as..." Oh, I dont know... "Go and round up 100 civilians to execute as an example."

But I suppose you'd rather I do what I'm told instead?

The reality is, this is extremely unlikely to happen,and it is also extremely unlikely that I'd be placed in such a situation where I have to disobey an order because it is unlawful. Ill fight to protect innocent people... if, as your situation placed me, I had recieved an order to defend my country men, sure thing. If I recieve an order to "exterminate all jews/muslims/christians/atheists/americans/french/arabs/whatever because of their race/religion/whatever" then no, it'd be manifestly unlawful and I'd even be *obligated* to disobey.

As usual, wun, you take it wrong.

Says the person who doesnt understand when I say I wont fight for evil, and instead changes the whole equation in an effort to say that I wont fight because of some far fetched unlikely to come by situation such as: I dont like the color of my superiors hair