Paris is Burning

[Subtemperate]

AFTER building up for years, social malaise has exploded into violence across poor French suburbs.

Successive job-creation schemes by governments Left and Right have not taken youths off streets, out of the clutches of drug dealers, Islamic radicals and dead-ends. Decades of redevelopment have not rid tougher suburbs of their Third World feel.

Some low-cost housing projects that once were seen as models of urban progress, with heating, bathrooms and large apartments, have degenerated into no-go zones where even police drive through without stopping – windows up.

An African-sounding name or a poor suburb's postcode on a CV can put job interviews out of reach.

While French authorities are talking about organised gangs behind the violence, youths in the suburbs say the unrest is spreading mainly because of a sense of competition between the impoverished neighbourhoods.

"We see what the others are up to on TV and try to match them," said a teenager of Malian background, Moussa.

He said he and a dozen friends had gathered every night since the rampages started more than a week ago to sit around a television in their public housing estate, in the western Paris suburb of Les Mureaux, "like for a football game".

All dressed alike, in brand-name sneakers, baggy jeans and hooded sweatshirts – the uniform of these grim areas where role models tended to be the US rapper 50 Cent and other American toughs.

"We're trippin' to see all them flames on the TV," said one of them, Youssef.

"The 9-3 (the postcode of the northern Paris region at the centre of the violence), I don't know it, never leave my 'hood except to go to Algeria.

"But we're keeping up with the guys from Seine-Saint-Denis on the tube, and all the channels show the pics, even the Arab stations on satellite."

But Moussa said the aim of the violence was to score points, like on the PlayStation consoles they played.

"If we get on the TV, if they say we stoned the cops, for us that's a victory, a way to show we're men, like the rituals in Mali," he said.

http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/st...255E663,00.html

Edited November 7, 2005 by Subtemperate

[+joc]

QUOTE

Then, are you saying that terrorism is a factor in all of this?

I'm saying religious extremism is a factor in this.

But its all real choas, but Sky News says that the French authorities have information which proves that Islamic Militant groups are orchastrating it.

Aren't Religious Extremist and Terrorist pretty much interchangable terms? Who are the Terrorists? Religious Extremists are they not? Same thing.

[Talon]

Aren't Religious Extremist and Terrorist pretty much interchangable terms? Who are the Terrorists? Religious Extremists are they not? Same thing.

No. A terrorist is an individual who commits an act of terror. An extremist is someone who's views are far from moderate. While most terrorists will be extremists, just because someone's an extremist doesn't mean they're a terrorist, although they'll most likely support terrorism if they're beleifs agree with those outcomes.

[Celumnaz]

AHAHAHAHAHAh, my informer was right, next, it's the vatican.

ahhhh, finnaly some of the world scum will be eleminated.

Don't take me wrong, I have family living in paris, I just find it amusing that the guy that I chated with some months ago was really telling the truth.

This was planed, dig deeper into the real lifes of those involved and u'll see the truth.

If my predictions are right, this situation will be stoped by a country from the west (of france).EDITED: but maybe i'm confusing the dates.

This related to Albert Pike?

The Military should be called in and the rioters shot on mass and I don't care if some of those rioters killed are 14, 15 etc and I don't care if the body count is in the hundreds. They're ungrateful little b******s who've come over from a country they (or their parents) fled from for a reason, and after everything Europe's given them, they repay us by buring down one of our greatest and historic cities. Execute them all and show them that if anyone wants to come to a EUROPEAN country, they have to abide by EUROPEAN laws and standards, not those they left behind in the deserts.

Would that be an attempted genocidal massacre?

This reminds me of an old story...

A young princess was walking out in the countryside and found a snake that had been runover by a wagon and was barely alive. She picked it up, took it home, and poured milk in its mouth. In her effort to nurse it back to health she even tookit to bed with her to keep it warm!

After several weeks the snake was still alive and almost ready to be released! Then on the night before the princess was to turn him loose she took him to bed one more time and the snake bit her on her neck. As she lay there dying she asked the snake how he could have donesuch a thing after she had saved his life.

The snake replied, "You stupid girl, you knew that I was a snake when you picked me up!".

Reminds me of the story of Ishmael and Isaac.

I'm saying religious extremism is a factor in this.

Is it possible to separate the religion from the extremeism? I think I'm seeing this general trend to pinning ails on Religion (in MSM mostly), and not the choices of the Extremeists, possibly leading to a reverse-witch hunt.

[+joc]

No. A terrorist is an individual who commits an act of terror. An extremist is someone who's views are far from moderate. While most terrorists will be extremists, just because someone's an extremist doesn't mean they're a terrorist, although they'll most likely support terrorism if they're beleifs agree with those outcomes.

Is it wise to take a Pacifist Stance towards either? And, do you agree that France has a Pacifist Stance toward both...and do you agree that that attitude is at least partly responsible for some of this?

[Talon]

The Military should be called in and the rioters shot on mass and I don't care if some of those rioters killed are 14, 15 etc and I don't care if the body count is in the hundreds. They're ungrateful little b******s who've come over from a country they (or their parents) fled from for a reason, and after everything Europe's given them, they repay us by buring down one of our greatest and historic cities. Execute them all and show them that if anyone wants to come to a EUROPEAN country, they have to abide by EUROPEAN laws and standards, not those they left behind in the deserts.

Would that be an attempted genocidal massacre?

....... genocide is the act of wiping out a race. Bringing in the miltary to protect the law-abiding citizens is not genocide. How you come to the decision that it is, I have no idea.

Is it possible to separate the religion from the extremeism? I think I'm seeing this general trend to pinning ails on Religion (in MSM mostly), and not the choices of the Extremeists, possibly leading to a reverse-witch hunt.

Course you can have religion without extremists. I know a lot of people who're religious and I don't think they are extremists. But like or not, they are religious people out there whose religious views are extremist. You should know this, you're country's has been on its 'war of terror' for years now.

[Talon]

Is it wise to take a Pacifist Stance towards either? And, do you agree that France has a Pacifist Stance toward both...and do you agree that that attitude is at least partly responsible for some of this?

I don't remember ever saying we should take a pacifist stance on either. Extremists egg on terrorists, and terrorists blow people up.

And as for France, no it isn't responsible. France has been trying to combat extremism by intergrating its ethnic minorities for a generation now. In fact there are many here who've attacked its attempts to tackle this extremism and intergrate ethnic minorities in past threads. France's only mistake was the same as most states, letting the multiculturalists have to much say. And all western democracies are guilty of that.

[+joc]

France's only mistake was the same as most states, letting the multiculturalists have to much say. And all western democracies are guilty of that.

Common ground I can walk on!

[Subtemperate]

Australia is guilty of letting minorities have too much say?

[Talon]

France's only mistake was the same as most states, letting the multiculturalists have to much say. And all western democracies are guilty of that.

Australia is guilty of letting minorities have too much say?

Its not the same thing and you know it. Multiculturalism is the ideology which told us to ban Christmas because its offensive, its the ideology which introduced positive discrimination, and its the ideology which has many western democracries running an apartheid system of government where people live in their own little communities, which is segregation, and Martin Luther King Jr would be rolling in his grave at it.

Multiculturalists and ethnic minrotities are not interchangeable words.

[thebarman]

Colour-blind policy has fed Muslim radicalism

From Charles Bremner in Paris

THE biggest explosion of street violence in France since the late 1960s has jolted the country into confronting its failure to include its seven million residents of Arab and African origin in the national mainstream.

President Chirac and Dominique de Villepin, his Prime Minister, seem at a loss, however, to propose anything beyond the “republican” strategy that successive governments of Left and Right have followed since the first riots erupted on the immigrant estates 15 years ago.

M de Villepin has promised a “major plan” to ease the plight of the immigrant communities — the latest of many over the past two decades — but, meeting community leaders on Saturday, he made clear that this would be more of the same: a mix of tax incentives for business in “difficult districts” plus more money for schools, police, other public services and better counselling for jobseekers.

Under the ethnically colour-blind “French model”, the immigrant workers who came in the 1950s and 1960s from the former colonies in North and black Africa were to be regarded as equal citizens. They and their descendants would take advantage of the education system and generous welfare state to assimilate with “white” France. To promote the idea of assimilation, neither the State nor any other body publishes statistics on ethnic or national origin.

In practice, France turned its back on the minorities, shunting them into suburban cités denying access to the so-called ascenseur social (social elevator) that was supposed to lift immigrants into the mainstream. Unemployment on the estates is up to three times the 10 per cent national average. Laws supposed to promote integration and oppose multiculturalism, such as the ban on Muslim headwear in schools, have often heightened resentment and the feeling of exclusion. This has in turn fed the rise of Muslim radicalism, which has now become the dominant creed of the young in the French ghettos.

France has always deemed its model superior to the Anglo-Saxon approach of diversity, which has enabled ethnic minorities to retain strong bonds in cultural and religious communities. France calls this “comunitarism” and says that it promotes ghettos, exclusion, poverty, race riots and religious extremism that can ultimately lead to actions such as the London bombings.

Three decades on from the big inflow of immigrants, everyone now agrees that the French model has not worked, although almost no one says that the American and British approach has produced better results. Some, such as Nicolas Sarkozy, the iconoclastic Interior Minister who is at the centre of the present crisis, have provoked outrage by saying that France should copy aspects of the Anglo-American model, starting with policies to favour the entry of ethnic minorities into education and jobs. M de Villepin slapped down M Sarkozy last week for promoting dangerous “un-French” ideas that could encourage the Muslim extremism that has recently infected Britain.

Mainstream Muslim leaders who have been consulted by the Government have all hammered home the message. “The young have the feeling that they have been abandoned, left at the roadside,” Larbi Kechat, rector of the rue de Tanger mosque in Paris, said.

Some change in the French approach has been appearing over the past couple of years. Proposals are afoot to take a firmer hand with the racial discrimination that is still widely applied with impunity to jobseekers.

Paradoxically, the figure most associated with a radical new approach is M Sarkozy. His proposals for a break with the French model have received little welcome. Both Left and Right see them as a breach of France’s republican tradition and believe that affirmative action would play into the hands of the anti-immigrant Far Right, led by Jean-Marie Le Pen.

Source: timesonline

[Celumnaz]

....... genocide is the act of wiping out a race. Bringing in the miltary to protect the law-abiding citizens is not genocide. How you come to the decision that it is, I have no idea.

genocidal massacre. I didn't know what term to use for wiping a group of people out as you were saying. The picture I got was not bringing in the military to protect law-abiding citizens, but finding people that fit a religious/cultural template and exterminating them.

Rioters shot en masse, don't care if they're children, don't care if body count is in the hundreds... "genocidal massacre" is the only term I can think to describe it.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=genocide

Main Entry: geno·cide

Pronunciation: 'jen-&-"sId

Function: noun

: the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group —compare HOMICIDE —geno·cid·al /"jen-&-'sId-&l/ adjective

Course you can have religion without extremists. I know a lot of people who're religious and I don't think they are extremists. But like or not, they are religious people out there whose religious views are extremist. You should know this, you're country's has been on its 'war of terror' for years now.

We've also had our share of witch hunts.

[Talon]

A mayor of a Paris suburb has declared a curfew.

[Subtemperate]

Fair enough.

I dont see this issue as black and white Talon. The police reports say "mostly" muslim. So, if we blame muslim extremists... what aquates to those others that got involved? And if they can be an exception for peer group pressure, or just being troubled teens... then why it it those who are islamic are automatically made to sound like they are all following huidnece of islamic extremeists.... rather then copying hte actions they feel they can identify with...

[Talon]

genocidal massacre. I didn't know what term to use for wiping a group of people out as you were saying. The picture I got was not bringing in the military to protect law-abiding citizens, but finding people that fit a religious/cultural template and exterminating them.

Rioters shot en masse, don't care if they're children, don't care if body count is in the hundreds... "genocidal massacre" is the only term I can think to describe it.

Well if thats you're arguement then the US kills terrorists in Iraq to protect civilians it must be genocide too.

Course you can have religion without extremists. I know a lot of people who're religious and I don't think they are extremists. But like or not, they are religious people out there whose religious views are extremist. You should know this, you're country's has been on its 'war of terror' for years now.

We've also had our share of witch hunts.

So you're saying you're invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan was just a 'witch hunt'

[Talon]

Fair enough.

I dont see this issue as black and white Talon. The police reports say "mostly" muslim. So, if we blame muslim extremists... what aquates to those others that got involved? And if they can be an exception for peer group pressure, or just being troubled teens... then why it it those who are islamic are automatically made to sound like they are all following huidnece of islamic extremeists.... rather then copying hte actions they feel they can identify with...

You're just playing devil's advocate here, and ignoring the news reports.

The news reports are telling us there are links to Islamic extremists organising this, that the rioters are demanding religious changes to society, the news is telling us that Islamic community leaders have admitted it's their disillusioned youth who are rioting and demanded they stop, and the news is telling us that most of those who are rioting are second generation Middle Eastern and African. And you're own report tells us the rioters are anti-white.

I'll start complaining about the Chinese, the Shiks etc when Sky news tells me they're the ones rioting.

And as for troubled teens, how many troubled teens do you know go out and burn cities down?

Edited November 7, 2005 by Talon

[Subtemperate]

Dont try and tell me what im doing.

Though a majority of the youths committing the acts are Muslim, and of African or North African origin, the mayhem has yet to take on any ideological or religious overtones. Youths in the neighborhoods say second-generation Portuguese immigrants and even some children of native French have taken part.

Many politicians have warned that the unrest may be coalescing into an organized movement, citing Internet chatter that is urging other poor neighborhoods across France to join in. The Justice Ministry announced today that it had arrested three youths who had called for rioting and attacks on police on their Web sites, though it stressed that the three did not know each other. No one has emerged to take the lead like Daniel Cohn-Bendit, known as Danny the Red, did during the violent student protests that rocked the French capital in 1968.

From the nytimes..... an hour ago.......

If i was an islamic extremist, and violence erupted... Youd be a fool not to think that they are trying to use that violence for their own cause, rather then being the sole cause. THey are being reactive, just like al queda suddenly takes ownership fo any bombings or terrorist acts.. even if they have no connection... they take advantage of situations just like this one.

[Seraphina]

One thing I keep hearing is this rubbish about poor housing...correct me if I'm wrong, but when they came into France, they had no home to speak of, and whatever money was in their back pocket

What do they want France to do with the overwhelming influx of the parasites? Give them all mansions with acres of grounds for them to fast on?

[Subtemperate]

Its a youth riot, I doubt poor housing would have been their political priority...lol

[FJF]

Wipe them out...........All of them.

Actually that is a bit harsh (but that's what were all secretley thinking )

I can't stand the ungratefull sods. They were allowed to live in the country and then they start making demands and changes, with violence! Screw them, send them back to where they came from, that's what I say.

Just my two cents

[Seraphina]

From what I can tell the triggers have been

1) a couple of scum bags getting themselves electrocuted when running away from police, and the later reference to said scum bags as "rabble".

2) The perceived poor living conditions that the Islamic community has been saddled with in France after their immigration (obviously they don't get what the UK gives them...afterall, having lived in the country for five minutes they're fully entitled not only to a state pension, social security, income support in the hundreds of thousands, but to expensive property in prime realestate)

3) The fact that they're complete nutters.

[JennRose]

One thing I keep hearing is this rubbish about poor housing...correct me if I'm wrong, but when they came into France, they had no home to speak of, and whatever money was in their back pocket

What do they want France to do with the overwhelming influx of the parasites? Give them all mansions with acres of grounds for them to fast on?

I whole-heartedly agree. If you are seeking refuge in another country, try and keep from burning it down if you dislike the new setting.

[Super Pancake]

Have you guys been to these areas I have family that live used to live their, these people have less rights then blacks in the 1930's America.

But I don't know what they are really rioting about! teen angst, poor living conditions, religious facctors, lack political representation, I really don't know.

[Subtemperate]

Young people in the poor neighborhoods incubating the violence have consistently complained that police harassment is mainly to blame. "If you're treated like a dog, you react like a dog," said Mr. Diallo of Clichy-sous-Bois, whose parents came to France from Mali decades ago.

I think thats a big part of it, coming from a place where this issue was paramount earlier in the year, coming from the same thing... a child death running from police.

I think the poor living conditions is a way in which they try to say, unemployment is high in those areas (in fact as high as 50% for arabian people).... The government have not foen alot to eliviate this problem, its generally thought of that if you apply for a job and live in that area you will automatically get knocked back (this from a journal by a frnechman who does not live in that area... I should go find it).... and the fact the government has been reducing help and services in these areas, suprisingly as there would be the areas that most need it....

Im sure many people have their own reasons, some religious extremeism... some frustration... and some because they think its fun. None however are correct in their thinking... obviously... as violence doesnt solve problems, it turns sympathy away from your cause.... whatever you think it is...

[thebarman]

I think what started all this off doesn't really matter anymore, from the reports these "people" are seeing what other rioters are doing in different areas and trying to cause as much destruction as possible in an attempt to compete with each other.

If there was a reason for all this once, it appears to have gotten lost among the lust for needless violence and complete disregard for authority.