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WongFeiHung

There is no god!

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WongFeiHung

Ok, before any of you religious people come in here and start saying how I'm going to go to hell, and turned into salt or whatever, read this WHOLE thing.

(Some of the things I say here may have been posted in replies to other topics)

I believe that God is completely made up. Throughout many thousands of years and civilizations all over the globe, societies have had a God or gods. This is because they have no better explanation for misunderstood things. "There was an earthquake!!! God is angry!" "Our crops grew tall this year!!! God is pleased!" "This lady woke up from a coma!!! It's a miracle, God saved her!" And so with the common belief that god controls everything we have accepted his rule and everything he does is right. "My grandma dies!!! God did that for a reason!" and so on.

The reason that civilization made God or gods was to keep everyone in line. So many more people would resist stealing and murdering if they thought they would go to hell if they did so. Everyone would be a better person if they thought they would go to heaven for it. God was created to help people stick together and prosper. And I don't think it was a bad thing! Society might not have advanced past what middle eastern poor people have now if they didn't make it, so it was a great idea to conjure that illusion up!

And isn't it convenient that there is no way of proving any of this stuff. Is there a heaven, only the dead know. Is there a god, same answer. How do I know there is a God? You just have to believe....... That last remark is what really bugs me about religion. You just have to believe. What are we believing in? are we believing the priest that there is a God? How does HE know?? He believed a different priest and here is how the telephone game starts. You start out saying "oh Ted has a funny face", and it ends up as "Green books taste like toe jam!" There is no credibility. Religion is worse! It has gone on for thousands of years!

The ancient greeks would have sworn on their lives that there were really manticores, cyclopses and chimeras, but no we know they don't exist. And the same thing happens with christians and angels. maybe they don't see them as frequently, but they believe. If there really is a god, then the bibles MUST be false. This is a quote I got off of comedy central (tv) and i think it is true while funny. I'm not sure it is really a quote though because I don't remember it word for word. "The bible says God doesn't want me to do my sister, but it also says that adam and eve created all humanity and if they had kids, there would be no one else for them to do! Someone had to bang their sister."

I might have forgotten some stuff, but I am tired and it's like midnight here so if you Christians want to attack me now, go ahead, I'm sure there is plenty of stuff in there for you to find holes in, but once you point them out to me, I WILL fill them in.

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joc
The reason that civilization made God or gods was to keep everyone in line.

I didn't read your whole mantra. Who do you think 'civilization' is? The Incas? The Mayas? The desert plains Indians? The Eskimos? The Africans? The Egyptians? The Jews? The Greeks?

Virtually every tribe of people on Earth has had some belief in a Higher Being.

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Pacal

Here's something for you to chew on:

Edit; removed link. Website inappropriate for inclusion on the forum.

And in order to expand your views, you also should try this one:

Zacharia Sitchin and the Nefilim

Read all of them, and then come back and let's have a good discussion... OK? See you in like two weeks... devil.gif

Edited by Magikman

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seeking
...Virtually every tribe of people on Earth has had some belief in a Higher Being.

773500[/snapback]

that would be because it is natural for humans to try and create and answer for things they dont understand, all that quote proves is that all humans are indeed alike mentally

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The Silver Thong
The reason that civilization made God or gods was to keep everyone in line.

I didn't read your whole mantra. Who do you think 'civilization' is? The Incas? The Mayas? The desert plains Indians? The Eskimos? The Africans? The Egyptians? The Jews? The Greeks?

Virtually every tribe of people on Earth has had some belief in a Higher Being.

773500[/snapback]

As soon as man understood death. Thats when afterlife was created. So ya what civalization? Good question.

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BurnSide

Moved to a more appropriate section, edited topic title.

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Melladior

Well done, Wong. No one has ever presented such an iron-clad argument before. You've figured it all out. I thank you for enlightening me, and then telling me to shut up because you assumed that I both cared about your typos and judged you because of them. You've changed my life.

Believers are idiots. Message received. rolleyes.gif

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_hAiLO_
I might have forgotten some stuff, but I am tired and it's like midnight here so if you Christians want to attack me now, go ahead, I'm sure there is plenty of stuff in there for you to find holes in, but once you point them out to me, I WILL fill them in.

773492[/snapback]

I'm not going to attack you....lol....

You have a very interesting theory, though i've heard it so many times. You've listed why people believe in God in the first place, and it is to explain the events that were once thought to be paranormal occurances.

Thats still unconvincing and you probably have no proof of that. I'm not putting you down, i'm just being honest and showing how your theory doesn't really adhere to science like most anti-God theories do.

I still have my own personal reasons to believe in God though tongue.gif

Read all of them, and then come back and let's have a good discussion... OK? See you in like two weeks...  devil.gif

773516[/snapback]

...are you going somewhere? blink.gif

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Insight

It sure is easier to believe God is made up. That way, we don't have any moral responsibility. We can do what ever we want. But really, if God was REALLY made up, then why wouldn't everyone just do whatever they want? Why does an Athiest still abide by a code of moral conduct? If the only thing in life is myself and my own pleasure, then why don't I step on every single toe I possibly can to get it?

I believe that God is completely made up. Throughout many thousands of years and civilizations all over the globe, societies have had a God or gods. This is because they have no better explanation for misunderstood things. "There was an earthquake!!! God is angry!" "Our crops grew tall this year!!! God is pleased!" "This lady woke up from a coma!!! It's a miracle, God saved her!" And so with the common belief that god controls everything we have accepted his rule and everything he does is right. "My grandma dies!!! God did that for a reason!" and so on.

Simple logic really. But would a divine creator of the universe abide by such a simple line of logic thought of and comprehended by a human being?

In scriptures, God says to the people, "My ways are higher than your ways, and my thoughts higher than your thoughts."

The reason that civilization made God or gods was to keep everyone in line.

Ah, that's why the people in power allowed religion to exist. Infact, there has never been any society which has not allowed any form of worship whatsoever. The Romans used Chritianity to control their masses. The Arabs used Islam. North America uses Evolution, amongst other things. But can you provide any proof other than conjecture which civilization is THE first to "invent" the idea of God or Religion?

So many more people would resist stealing and murdering if they thought they would go to hell if they did so.

You speak as if Chritianity is the only religion. Strange. You know, Indian religions often believe in reincarnation. Which means, it doesn't matter what you do in this life. If it was truely wrong, you'll pay for it in the next, and everything will balance out.

Everyone would be a better person if they thought they would go to heaven for it.

So do you believe the only reason to do something good or "right" is if you get something good in return? Do you actually believe that the only reason Christians believe in Jesus Christ is to avoid Hell and get in to Heaven? Even the scummiest criminal on earth can practice acting good to avoid punishment, or to get reward. Christianity, speciffically, is learning what the true definition of Love actually is, and practicing it. And that is doing something good for someone without expecting or wanting anything in return. GENUINELY doing it. Love is rising above our animal instincts and coming in contact with our divinity through Jesus Christ.

God was created to help people stick together and prosper. And I don't think it was a bad thing! Society might not have advanced past what middle eastern poor people have now if they didn't make it, so it was a great idea to conjure that illusion up!

Racist, and unredeeming. As if wealth determines happiness or morality! Amazing...

And isn't it convenient that there is no way of proving any of this stuff.

Even shakespeare is quoted as saying, "I think, there for I am". As long as you keep telling your self that there is no possible proof, you will never see it. You have been programmed from day one by all popular media that truth is relative. You have been lied to about how many senses a person has. You want to talk about control, about REAL control over the masses? You better begin to understand what the Masons and the Illuminati have been doing for the past 200 years!

Is there a heaven, only the dead know. Is there a god, same answer.

Has your brain accumulated 100% of every bit of knowledge and facts in the entire world? No, of course not. To say so would be silly. Has it accumulated 50% of every bit of knowledge the entire world has to offer? Not even close. Now, lets say you are the smartest person who has ever lived, and hold 50% of every bit of data in your brain that the world has to offer. Is it still then possible that the TRUE knowledge of God and Heaven exists in the 50% that you do not, nor ever will have? What if that knowledge exists in 1%? Or even less? Does the fact that you have not found it negate it's existance? Or the possibility of it's existance?

How do I know there is a God? You just have to believe....... That last remark is what really bugs me about religion. You just have to believe. What are we believing in? are we believing the priest that there is a God? How does HE know?? He believed a different priest and here is how the telephone game starts. You start out saying "oh Ted has a funny face", and it ends up as "Green books taste like toe jam!" There is no credibility. Religion is worse! It has gone on for thousands of years!

Interestingly enough, Rabinnical Priests have been copying the scriptures for over 4000 years letter for letter. The text's have not changed at all. How do we know this? If you learn anything about Hebrew religion, you will understand how meticulous the process is. But what is MORE revealing is the fact that the dead sea scrolls, which contain the book of Isiah, have been dated to be thousands of years old, and are still grammatically and docterinely exactly the same as the modern day Old Testament. This is confirmed by the secular acheologists as well as the religious.

The ancient greeks would have sworn on their lives that there were really manticores, cyclopses and chimeras, but no we know they don't exist.

We have not even dug up 10% of the earths fossils. I'm not saying the Minotaur was a real animal, but if you consider the bizzare and downright outlandish creatures that genuinely existed eons ago, and HAVE been dug up, is it really so hard to believe that some dudes long ago had to deal with "dragons/dinosaurs" or Minotaurs/bullmen-like creatures?

And the same thing happens with christians and angels. maybe they don't see them as frequently, but they believe.

As God as my witness, I have actually witnessed what could only be described as an Angel. I was not asleep, I was not on drugs, and I was not alone. I was in my parents room, kneeling on top of my sleeping bag. I felt a touch on my back from hands. I turned around and saw a being which shone like the sun, in a pure white light, though it cast no light in the room I was in. It had visable robes around it. I couldn't make out facial features, though it did have a head, and over all was shaped like a human. The light, though extremely bright, did not hurt my eyes. It was kneeling at the foot of my sleeping bag. I stared at it for at least 20 seconds trying to figure out what I was seeing. Strangely enough, as a young person plagued with nightmares, I felt no fear whatsoever at what I saw. Infact, the lack of fear I felt was perhaps the stangest thing of the entire experience. I turned aside to grab my mother and tell her what I was seeing, and in that instant, this "being" was gone. This experience was as real as me sitting here typing this post. And how am I meant to explain this? Am I meant to lie to myself and say I didn't see it? Should I tell myself I was dreaming? Should I tell myself I was hallucinating? All I know is that at a young age, I witnessed a being that I cannot explain by any conventional means. Infact, if you can provide evidence of some widely known phenomena of this sort that I am unaware of, please do so. I'll hear you out. But here's how I put it together:

I felt physical touch.

I saw a being which had the body of a human, but glowed with an unexplainable light.

I felt no fear whatsoever.

It eventually vanished.

If you can think of a better explination than "It was an Angel", I'd be willing to hear you out.

If there really is a god, then the bibles MUST be false. This is a quote I got off of comedy central (tv) and i think it is true while funny.

Of course, popular media has never done anything to influence the minds of the masses. It's never tried to cloak it's agenda in humor and fun. And everything on TV is true and makes sense.

"The bible says God doesn't want me to do my sister, but it also says that adam and eve created all humanity and if they had kids, there would be no one else for them to do! Someone had to bang their sister."

Actually, you will not find anywhere in the Bible where God instructs us not to do our sisters. He does tell us not to have sex outside of marriage. He also tells us to have common sense. If thousands of years ago genetics were pure enough that breeding within families would actually PREVENT outside abnormalities, then I'm sure people of that time decided inter-family marriage was the way to go. But if over time, people began to see mutations forming from interfamily breeding, than naturally, people would probably steer clear of it.

I might have forgotten some stuff, but I am tired and it's like midnight here so if you Christians want to attack me now, go ahead, I'm sure there is plenty of stuff in there for you to find holes in, but once you point them out to me, I WILL fill hem in.

I really hope you do not see my post here as any sort of an attack. I will not preach to you. I will however, discuss the subject/topic at hand with you. I'm sorry if Christians have attacked you before regarding this sort of thing. But you know, the Muslims have been getting a bad rap for suicide boimbings lately. But If you go to a mosque and talk to one, you'll find nothing but peace in them. Of course, all that we ever hear about are the extremists.....kinda like Christianity eh? I guess a few bad apples do spoil the bunch. And that's a very sad thing that we all can't just leave our prejudices behind. But I want you to know I do not wish to attack you in any way. All I want to do is to provide explinations or ideas that you may habe not considered, and of course, tell my side of things, and the way I see it.

Anyways, I had a good time responding to your post. I look forward to see how this topic develops in the days to come!

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Brother_werewolf

So many things can be explained to you about your subject but I have no time for people like you. Atheism is fine, but people who attack those with beliefs through words or violence sicken me. You may not be a worshipper in god or moses, but other people should be allowed to be you should never attempt to attack anothers religon. All you brought out that were facts was that people do create gods to explain the unexplained. You explained why people created them, but not hard evidence that their religion is wrong you are a sick man for telling people they should not worship god or whatever they do because you do not believe he exists I leave you now with hop that you will not attack others with merely a history lesson and get a life.

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Shivel

WongFeiHung, although this was a nice attempt at getting people to listen to reason, it was entirely fruitless. The chances of getting a point across to people who so clearly have their minds concluded is slim if anything.

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Brother_werewolf
Ok, before any of you religious people come in here and start saying how I'm going to go to hell, and turned into salt or whatever, read this WHOLE thing.

(Some of the things I say here may have been posted in replies to other topics)

I believe that God is completely made up. Throughout many thousands of years and civilizations all over the globe, societies have had a God or gods. This is because they have no better explanation for misunderstood things. "There was an earthquake!!! God is angry!" "Our crops grew tall this year!!! God is pleased!" "This lady woke up from a coma!!! It's a miracle, God saved her!" And so with the common belief that god controls everything we have accepted his rule and everything he does is right. "My grandma dies!!! God did that for a reason!" and so on.

The reason that civilization made God or gods was to keep everyone in line. So many more people would resist stealing and murdering if they thought they would go to hell if they did so. Everyone would be a better person if they thought they would go to heaven for it. God was created to help people stick together and prosper. And I don't think it was a bad thing! Society might not have advanced past what middle eastern poor people have now if they didn't make it, so it was a great idea to conjure that illusion up!

And isn't it convenient that there is no way of proving any of this stuff. Is there a heaven, only the dead know. Is there a god, same answer. How do I know there is a God? You just have to believe....... That last remark is what really bugs me about religion. You just have to believe. What are we believing in? are we believing the priest that there is a God? How does HE know?? He believed a different priest and here is how the telephone game starts. You start out saying "oh Ted has a funny face", and it ends up as "Green books taste like toe jam!" There is no credibility. Religion is worse! It has gone on for thousands of years!

The ancient greeks would have sworn on their lives that there were really manticores, cyclopses and chimeras, but no we know they don't exist. And the same thing happens with christians and angels. maybe they don't see them as frequently, but they believe. If there really is a god, then the bibles MUST be false. This is a quote I got off of comedy central (tv) and i think it is true while funny. I'm not sure it is really a quote though because I don't remember it word for word. "The bible says God doesn't want me to do my sister, but it also says that adam and eve created all humanity and if they had kids, there would be no one else for them to do! Someone had to bang their sister."

I might have forgotten some stuff, but I am tired and it's like midnight here so if you Christians want to attack me now, go ahead, I'm sure there is plenty of stuff in there for you to find holes in, but once you point them out to me, I WILL fill them in.

773492[/snapback]

Actually it was his priest that told him god didn't want him to have sex with his sister. But I've never put much credit into priests anyway.

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Deaths Hand
Ok, before any of you religious people come in here and start saying how I'm going to go to hell, and turned into salt or whatever, read this WHOLE thing.

what? since when is turning into salt such a bad punishment? i think it would be kinda cool to make people suffer by putting myself in their wounds and giving them ulsers that are so horrible theyre unheard of. tongue.gif

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Shima Honnou

One thing I've found odd is how people say they don't believe in anything, yet that in itself is insane. Even belief in nothing if a belief in something. It's a logcal paradox.

While Wong does bring up a few good points, it seems more like he is trying to attack religion in general. I find what Insight said to be........well, insightful. Even I have my beliefs, and no matter how strange they may be, they are still mine to believe in, and that in itself makes it "right", even if just to me (Although if you listened to me you'd hear me say that my belief allows for all religions to be right in some form).

Wong, what I'm saying is, it's a good thing you have a belief. But don't attack other beliefs and try to force yours down our throats.

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Mr Supertypo

insight wrote

Ah, that's why the people in power allowed religion to exist. Infact, there has never been any society which has not allowed any form of worship whatsoever. The Romans used Chritianity to control their masses. The Arabs used Islam. North America uses Evolution, amongst other things. But can you provide any proof other than conjecture which civilization is THE first to "invent" the idea of God or Religion?

WTF? americans are using evoultion as religion? so if I move to USA and behave bad I will in my next life be reborn as a monkey??? blink.gifcrying.gif

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Mr Supertypo

yes I do belive ISTITUTIONALIZED religions....are made to keep people in line.

If you dont do as I say (said the farao..or the pope) god will be angry!!!

Religion is about politics...and nothing else.

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Brother_werewolf
One thing I've found odd is how people say they don't believe in anything, yet that in itself is insane.  Even belief in nothing if a belief in something.  It's a logcal paradox.

While Wong does bring up a few good points, it seems more like he is trying to attack religion in general.  I find what Insight said to be........well, insightful.  Even I have my beliefs, and no matter how strange they may be, they are still mine to believe in, and that in itself makes it "right", even if just to me (Although if you listened to me you'd hear me say that my belief allows for all religions to be right in some form).

Wong, what I'm saying is, it's a good thing you have a belief.  But don't attack other beliefs and try to force yours down our throats.

773683[/snapback]

HERESY lol J/K that feels good to say

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Shadowsleet
Why does an Athiest still abide by a code of moral conduct?

Because we're rational, thinking, human beings, driven by more than just carnal lust? The idea of randomly killing someone in the street is just as likely to be abhorent to a religious person as it is an athiest.

It disgusts me that many religious people have been brainwashed into this sad ideal that "only religious people can be good" or "only through religion can you be a good person." Strikes me as being very ignorant.

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Pseudomorph
Why does an Athiest still abide by a code of moral conduct? If the only thing in life is myself and my own pleasure, then why don't I step on every single toe I possibly can to get it?

What makes you think an Atheist still abides to a code of moral conduct? Is that a rule or something? I am an atheist, a hard core atheist. You're confusing atheism with hedonism. Not the same thing. no.gif

And the only reason I don't step on every single toe I possibly can to get any "pleasure" is - strategy and tactics. Some things better pay off without confrontation or "infliction of harm". There are ways, you see. Nothing is absolute.

Besides, it doesn't take a god to see that other people have feelings too. Maybe, and just maybe, we decide not to kill everyone in our way because we understand they have a life as well? Emotions, someone they love and are loved by? Dreams of their own? And does that have anything to do with a god? Nope. It's called empathy.

In scriptures, God says to the people, "My ways are higher than your ways, and my thoughts higher than your thoughts."

How convenient. Put a sentence in the book that will invalidate any "logical" reasoning, as it goes to "show" that there is a "higher logic."

...

I felt physical touch.

I saw a being which had the body of a human, but glowed with an unexplainable light.

I felt no fear whatsoever.

It eventually vanished.

If you can think of a better explination than "It was an Angel", I'd be willing to hear you out.

Many dreams I had, they were so vivid. I felt physical touch and pain. I saw things that would be next to impossible in our default reality. I fealt no fear whatsoever. And eventually I woke up - which was a shock as I thought I was fully awake and in default reality.

See, the powers of mind are awesome and not understood completely. I am not saying you had a dream, no, I am just saying I am having a better explanation than "It was an Angel".

Besides, wasn't it Jesus who said Believe, and you shall move the mountains (paraphrased)? Power of belief is extraordinary. There is empirical evidence to this in form of many perceptive illusions.

Power of belief drives wars. Power of belief can give you temporarily "inhuman" strength when your child is in danger, trapped under a burning car and you need to lift the car.

---

Wong, as an atheist myself, I do think your argument is weak. Any argument against god should be outside any religious system. Relegions and their holy scriptures were (re)written by man. Personally, I think there is no objective argument against, or for, god. It boils down to personal perceptive systems. Which is then a belief vs. belief argument which is, in my opinion, totally false and futile.

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Bone_Collector

An interesting post WongFeiHung!I do agree with most things you said, if not everything.

I belive that belief in itself is more important than WHAT you believe. Belief is what gives you the strength, confidence and determination to go put a step forward. People need belief because they are weak and because of their fear of the unknown. Most of us give one name to our beliefs : GOD.

Consider the example of a tribal in a remote part of the world who prays to grasshopper gods, rain gods, stone gods and ALL sorts of gods, he is totally oblivious to all the happenings, religions and beliefs of the outside world but he would swear that he gets his food, shelter and all other things he needs and basically survives just because the gods that he prays are favorable to him. He would indulge in bizarre rituals and offerings to gods and actually find them quite justifiable and sane though most of us would say :what a bumpkin he is! Most of us, if not all would think all that he says and believes is BS but HE might have the same words for us. He would think that all that we think and believe is BS. He goes on with his life seeming quietly confident of his beliefs and so do we. Now, who is correct? I believe no one is. I believe all that people feel about GOD and such is just their perception; their cushion which keeps them in their comfort zone. No way am I saying that this is bad for them just that it isn't true.

It's funny how people associate whatever happens in there life with their beliefs. People say that 2% of the good that happens in the world as god's doing and the other 98% of the bad in the world; GOD obviously has nothing to do with it. hmm.gif

Edited by Bone_Collector

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Bone_Collector
Why does an Athiest still abide by a code of moral conduct? If the only thing in life is myself and my own pleasure, then why don't I step on every single toe I possibly can to get it?

An Atheist isn't neccessarily immoral. He might not believe in god but that doesn't mean he is immoral or that he has no empathy towards other people.

As God as my witness, I have actually witnessed what could only be described as an Angel. I was not asleep, I was not on drugs, and I was not alone. I was in my parents room, kneeling on top of my sleeping bag. I felt a touch on my back from hands. I turned around and saw a being which shone like the sun, in a pure white light, though it cast no light in the room I was in. It had visable robes around it. I couldn't make out facial features, though it did have a head, and over all was shaped like a human. The light, though extremely bright, did not hurt my eyes. It was kneeling at the foot of my sleeping bag. I stared at it for at least 20 seconds trying to figure out what I was seeing. Strangely enough, as a young person plagued with nightmares, I felt no fear whatsoever at what I saw. Infact, the lack of fear I felt was perhaps the stangest thing of the entire experience. I turned aside to grab my mother and tell her what I was seeing, and in that instant, this "being" was gone. This experience was as real as me sitting here typing this post. And how am I meant to explain this? Am I meant to lie to myself and say I didn't see it? Should I tell myself I was dreaming? Should I tell myself I was hallucinating? All I know is that at a young age, I witnessed a being that I cannot explain by any conventional means. Infact, if you can provide evidence of some widely known phenomena of this sort that I am unaware of, please do so. I'll hear you out. But here's how I put it together:

I felt physical touch.

I saw a being which had the body of a human, but glowed with an unexplainable light.

I felt no fear whatsoever.

It eventually vanished.

If you can think of a better explination than "It was an Angel", I'd be willing to hear you out.

Do some research on sleep paralysis and other such sleep related phenomenon. It has a lot to do with your subconscious mind. Believe me, I've had similar experiences myself and I can tell you that it gives you a very eery feeling indeed but when you do proper research on it you will realise that it's a phenomenon of the mind and that there's nothing paranormal to it.

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Putte

The points brought up in the first posts does not prove anything. Ok, so you've thought of a few reasons why God could have been made up. That does not, in any way, prove that is what happened, or that that's the factual truth.

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Ashley-Star*Child

In response to the original poster that's your opinion. Believe whatever you damn well want, but just like it is on the other side of the fence (i.e. those that believe) don't expect anyone to follow you. In case you haven't noticed no one gives a damn.

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_hAiLO_
WTF? americans are using evoultion as religion? so if I move to USA and behave bad I will in my next life be reborn as a monkey???  blink.gif  crying.gif

773694[/snapback]

I don't think so. He said that Evolution maybe used in North American societies as how religion was used in Ancient Societies...and of one reason he stated, to control the masses.

yes I do belive ISTITUTIONALIZED religions....are made to keep people in line.

If you dont do as I say (said the farao..or the pope) god will be angry!!!

Religion is about politics...and nothing else.

773701[/snapback]

In your opinion...if you check the dictionary, religion is the devotion and worship of a higher entity or ideal. You think religion is all about politics because it got itself involved in political races and reforms to provide a moral reason why to believe this politician or that politician. Today, you can find religion in some political speeches, but religion is discouraged to fuse with any government organizations or actions...its mostly about telling you how to worship a God.

Edited by _hAiLO_

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ramster83

"The probability of an evolutionary origin of life is equal to the probability that a tornado, sweeping though a junkyard, would assemble a Boeing 747" wink2.gif

Sir F. Hoyle

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