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WongFeiHung

There is no god!

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Greatness

Well, I know about Hinduism. I don't think someone could make up everything in Hinduism in one life time, you cannot learn everything there is to it in one life time. It seems the same for Judaism and others.

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Nxt2Hvn

Sad.. truly sad.. another fruit cake thinking he can join UM and change what every believes!!! rolleyes.gif Just because they said so! hmm.gif

Edited by Nxt2Hvn

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ramster83
His logic is fine, the idea that people would kill or die for something that there is NO proof of that there is NO logical explanation for is illogical.....And if someone could give me an explanation for why they would believe in that, other then the book told me he exists or how else do you explain a random cut on my hand  or i had a vision when i was sleeping etc. For someone to give a good reason then maybe I wouldn't be quite so harsh but there is no logic behind religion just peoples need for explanations to unknowns and as I have said before, it's nice to have someone or something to blame other then yourself

BACCA- Dont you just LOVE how people try and twist the words or context around of what was originally said to make it more fitting when theyre trying to prove a point (People take reference to the "Put a Skeptic Kindly In Their Place" topic and see what i mean). Its your blatant ignorance and evidence in the fact that you change another persons original saying to something you want it to be. "Random Cut"? Dont be absurd. Your obviously referring to both my story and also the story mentioned on this topic of a persons experience and claim it was his dream. The cut wasnt random and i bet this persons experience wasnt a dream. I said what i had to say about the cut on my hand and dont try to use my true account here to defend YOURSELF- because i disagree with you to the core. yes.gif

Edited by ramster83

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Pseudomorph
In other words, with even the smallest measure of faith, we can be absolutely certain and sure that the end times prophecied will occur.

774073[/snapback]

Yah, well, could be. It was ages since I read the bible, and I have no interest rereading those parts now to find out if you're right. Still, that doesn't change the fact about the power of belief.

Well, I know about Hinduism. I don't think someone could make up everything in Hinduism in one life time, you cannot learn everything there is to it in one life time. It seems the same for Judaism and others.

I don't think anyone said it was made up in one life time. Hell, even the bible was being rewritten up until "recently"...

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Paranoid Android
In other words, with even the smallest measure of faith, we can be absolutely certain and sure that the end times prophecied will occur.

774073[/snapback]

Yah, well, could be. It was ages since I read the bible, and I have no interest rereading those parts now to find out if you're right. Still, that doesn't change the fact about the power of belief.

774092[/snapback]

I suppose i should have said your interpretation was PROBABLY wrong to tell the absolute truth. Most Christians do take the passage you referred to as an affirmation that we can do anything. In my personal Biblical experience though I've found the interpretation I gave you much more likely.

All the best,

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Discordia

WongFeiHung, I would have to say that I agree with you on this 100%, but religion is a belief since the beginning of time therefore people will continue to believe in it even if it has stemmed from ignorance and control. It's human's nature to do so. I would have to say that it's not exactly bad, some people need it-- some people need to feel a reassurance that there is more to our existence than what we see. It also teaches morales still to this day so it's probably a good thing that the mass believes in it, otherwise I think that society today would be worse off than it already currently is. If religion was looked at as a 'myth' and the threat of going to hell wasn't weighing on people's mind, I think there would be much more crime. Even though I don't believe in god anymore, I was taught it when I was younger and sometimes I still feel as if I am wrong for being a heretic and it bothers me. That's how much religion has control over people, even when you can see things for what they are you sometimes still question it because it's influences are strong. I say live and let live, if people want to believe then let them do so, if it makes them a better person, more power to them. thumbsup.gif

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mako
It sure is easier to believe God is made up. That way, we don't have any moral responsibility. We can do what ever we want. But really, if God was REALLY made up, then why wouldn't everyone just do whatever they want? Why does an Athiest still abide by a code of moral conduct? If the only thing in life is myself and my own pleasure, then why don't I step on every single toe I possibly can to get it?

Mankind is moral for the simple reason that in order to have the basic necessities of life (security, food, shelter), one must cooperate with others. What we call morals are those very things that make this cooperation easy. The fear of being killed by the neighbors would lead to the cultural admonishment of “No Murder Allowed”, the fear of losing one’s possessions would lead to the cultural admonishment of “No Stealing Allowed” and so forth. Have you ever noticed that the vast majority of morals are just the grease that oils the machinery of cooperation? Those few morals that don’t aid cooperation are usually derived from elitist religious dogma and are there only to make a specific group feel special. Incidentally I have known more highly moral Atheists, Agnostics and Free Thinkers than I have Christians.

Simple logic really. But would a divine creator of the universe abide by such a simple line of logic thought of and comprehended by a human being?

In scriptures, God says to the people, "My ways are higher than your ways, and my thoughts higher than your thoughts."

Then there is the thought – Why would something so far above us even worry about us (do you worry about your stomach micro-organisms)? Without evidence that we are the highest creatures in all of creation, it is sheer vanity that makes us think that the Creator would even consider us any better than his myriad other creatures universe-wide.

Ah, that's why the people in power allowed religion to exist. Infact, there has never been any society which has not allowed any form of worship whatsoever. The Romans used Chritianity to control their masses. The Arabs used Islam. North America uses Evolution, amongst other things. But can you provide any proof other than conjecture which civilization is THE first to "invent" the idea of God or Religion?

Yes, after the advent of Temple-based Judaism (538 BCE), the people in power (in Judea) allowed religion to exist for the purpose of controlling the populace. Christianity and Islam continued the Jewish practice of controlling the populace through religion. Prior to Christianity, the large majority of governments used religion as a control agent very sparingly, the Greeks and Romans used it mainly as an agent to bond the populace and give a cultural identity to them. This is why it was so easy for all but the Jews, Christians and Moslems to accept foreign gods or equate them to their gods. Incidentally North America uses extreme forms of Christianity to control the people through a very conservative right-wing Christian White House. Evolution, while accepted world-wide, has a very hard row to hoe through the lack of knowledge of many of America’s citizens.

You speak as if Chritianity is the only religion. Strange. You know, Indian religions often believe in reincarnation. Which means, it doesn't matter what you do in this life. If it was truely wrong, you'll pay for it in the next, and everything will balance out.

I would think that he speaks as a citizen of a nation that has a large or controlling Christian or Moslem population. With than in mind, it is not unusual for him to mention the punishment of hell; since fear of burning eternally in hell is the standard Christian and Moslem control agency.

So do you believe the only reason to do something good or "right" is if you get something good in return? Do you actually believe that the only reason Christians believe in Jesus Christ is to avoid Hell and get in to Heaven? Even the scummiest criminal on earth can practice acting good to avoid punishment, or to get reward. Christianity, speciffically, is learning what the true definition of Love actually is, and practicing it. And that is doing something good for someone without expecting or wanting anything in return. GENUINELY doing it. Love is rising above our animal instincts and coming in contact with our divinity through Jesus Christ.

Surprise, surprise I agree with you for the most part on this statement. I do want to point out that all religions have the same outlook on love and goodness as does Christianity. The difference is only in the minds of the Christians.

Racist, and unredeeming. As if wealth determines happiness or morality! Amazing...

And isn't it convenient that there is no way of proving any of this stuff.

Even shakespeare is quoted as saying, "I think, there for I am". As long as you keep telling your self that there is no possible proof, you will never see it. You have been programmed from day one by all popular media that truth is relative. You have been lied to about how many senses a person has. You want to talk about control, about REAL control over the masses? You better begin to understand what the Masons and the Illuminati have been doing for the past 200 years!

Agree with you about the racist remarks and to some extent about wealth determining morality (the most moral people are usually the poorest). However, the person who said that money can’t buy happiness was full of Male Bovine Manure! Extreme wealth is not a guarantee of happiness, but extreme poverty is a guarantee of misery! Enough money to provide the basic necessities of life with a few of the “Nice-to-haves” will do more to provide happiness than anything else. In many ways Marx (I believe it was) was correct in saying that religion was the opiate of the masses. As long as the masses were looking at God, the ruling elite (of which the Christian Church was a part) could do anything with little fear of reaction or rebellion! I personally do not believe in the Illuminati or believe that the Masons are much more than a “good-ole-boy” club, but if they were doing as you intimated, what difference would their actions be from that of the Christian Church of almost 1700 years?

Has your brain accumulated 100% of every bit of knowledge and facts in the entire world? No, of course not. To say so would be silly. Has it accumulated 50% of every bit of knowledge the entire world has to offer? Not even close. Now, lets say you are the smartest person who has ever lived, and hold 50% of every bit of data in your brain that the world has to offer. Is it still then possible that the TRUE knowledge of God and Heaven exists in the 50% that you do not, nor ever will have? What if that knowledge exists in 1%? Or even less? Does the fact that you have not found it negate it's existance? Or the possibility of it's existance?

Straw man argument – there is no more evidence of the existence of a deity than there is of the non-existence of one. As a Deist, I personally believe in a deity, but that doesn’t mean that there is and unlike most Christians, I will admit the possibility!

Interestingly enough, Rabinnical Priests have been copying the scriptures for over 4000 years letter for letter. The text's have not changed at all. How do we know this? If you learn anything about Hebrew religion, you will understand how meticulous the process is. But what is MORE revealing is the fact that the dead sea scrolls, which contain the book of Isiah, have been dated to be thousands of years old, and are still grammatically and docterinely exactly the same as the modern day Old Testament. This is confirmed by the secular acheologists as well as the religious.

Actually the scriptures were not written until the 6th century BCE, making them a mere 2500 years old. Strange you should mention the dead sea scrolls, but not the fact that two versions of Josiah exist in them….That which is called the long version and that which is called the short version….as well as many small irregularities in most of the documents when compared to the modern versions. This actually says little for the much vaunted process that you described. Even if you were right, this would only prove that a group of people had strived for textual integrity, not that there was any sort of a deity, much less on that aided and abetted their efforts.

We have not even dug up 10% of the earths fossils. I'm not saying the Minotaur was a real animal, but if you consider the bizzare and downright outlandish creatures that genuinely existed eons ago, and HAVE been dug up, is it really so hard to believe that some dudes long ago had to deal with "dragons/dinosaurs" or Minotaurs/bullmen-like creatures?

How about the Greeks finding fossil remains of things like Mammoths, Mastodons, etc. There are extensive fossil fields on many of the Greek isles and even the mainland, fields that the ancient Greeks were aware of , they even recorded them as ancient battlegrounds of the giants with the bones of the dead showing. If you stand the skeleton of a mammoth on it’s hind legs in the manner of a man and “rehinge” the front legs and place the skull in the manner of a human (this would be what an unlearned person might do), you have an instant Cyclops. I would doubt that their belief in such as Minotaurs, Centaurs, etc would be more than misreading fossil remains or pure mythology, the last being his point.

As God as my witness, I have actually witnessed what could only be described as an Angel. I was not asleep, I was not on drugs, and I was not alone. I was in my parents room, kneeling on top of my sleeping bag. I felt a touch on my back from hands. I turned around and saw a being which shone like the sun, in a pure white light, though it cast no light in the room I was in. It had visable robes around it. I couldn't make out facial features, though it did have a head, and over all was shaped like a human. The light, though extremely bright, did not hurt my eyes. It was kneeling at the foot of my sleeping bag. I stared at it for at least 20 seconds trying to figure out what I was seeing. Strangely enough, as a young person plagued with nightmares, I felt no fear whatsoever at what I saw. Infact, the lack of fear I felt was perhaps the stangest thing of the entire experience. I turned aside to grab my mother and tell her what I was seeing, and in that instant, this "being" was gone. This experience was as real as me sitting here typing this post. And how am I meant to explain this? Am I meant to lie to myself and say I didn't see it? Should I tell myself I was dreaming? Should I tell myself I was hallucinating? All I know is that at a young age, I witnessed a being that I cannot explain by any conventional means. Infact, if you can provide evidence of some widely known phenomena of this sort that I am unaware of, please do so. I'll hear you out. But here's how I put it together:

I felt physical touch.

I saw a being which had the body of a human, but glowed with an unexplainable light.

I felt no fear whatsoever.

It eventually vanished.

That is what is called an overactive pineal gland. Stimulation of the pineal gland has been shown to cause such unreal phenomena to the subjects of the experiments. This shows that such supernatural phenomena can and usually does come from a malfunctioning gland.

Of course, popular media has never done anything to influence the minds of the masses. It's never tried to cloak it's agenda in humor and fun. And everything on TV is true and makes sense

You can pretty well say the same thing about the Christian book of mythology and their dogma.

Actually, you will not find anywhere in the Bible where God instructs us not to do our sisters. He does tell us not to have sex outside of marriage. He also tells us to have common sense. If thousands of years ago genetics were pure enough that breeding within families would actually PREVENT outside abnormalities, then I'm sure people of that time decided inter-family marriage was the way to go. But if over time, people began to see mutations forming from interfamily breeding, than naturally, people would probably steer clear of it.

I agree with the “doing the sister” part, but ancient man had the same problem with inbreeding (actually a greater problem as the gene pool was much more shallow) as we do. All ancient peoples had restrictions on inbreeding, this is not something that only the Jews had (nor did you say that, I only point it out), it was common sense because with a much smaller breeding population, the vagaries of inbreeding would be more severe and show up sooner.

I really hope you do not see my post here as any sort of an attack. I will not preach to you. I will however, discuss the subject/topic at hand with you

The same here. yes.gif

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hyperactive

well put mako.

lets extend the "god is fake" concept a bit:

gods are defined without a sample. when we defined what water is, we worked from a sample of water, for example. with gods, people have generated constructs of these beings,entities, energy fields, or whatever. now here is the problem with this: how does anybody know that the construct they created IS what a god IS? the simple answer is it is a god to them (but perhaps not to the next person). so what we have is a scenario where even if (and it is a big if) we found (or it revealed itself to us) a creature that appeared to fulfill one of these constructs we don't know if it is really a "god" or just meets enough of our construct for us to call it a god. lets look at the concept of perfection for example: people have a construct of what perfection is, but application can vary depending on preconceptions. what is an example of perfection to person one is imperfect to person two. the same thing will always be present with god constructs.

hence, no matter what we discover, gods will always be fake because some will choose to see their construct of a god in something, thus conforming it to their ideals while others will see the falilure of these ideals in the discovery. things well beyond the grasp of man (intellectually as well as perceptually) are possible but by that very aspect of them the best we would have is a shallow "shadow" of their true nature, while the rest is created. thus, all human gods are false. IMO, humans have it backwards in their quest for a "higher power" (although i understand why man anthropomorphises so much). The true binding, creating forces are physical forces that exist within everything and they are "equal/necessary" (if you like your universe the way it is now).

as for society and morals: mako covered the morals issue. all human societies need/needed something that bound them together and acted as "stabalizers". gods and theology did this.

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bacca

Ok I don't believe in a christian any christian god, I don't really care what other people believe in at all. If you choose to follow that then more power to you. But I don't understand the reasoning behind it. If I said that I don't believe in god because I received a sign that he doesn't exist in a dream or something of the like would that seem logical? I had no intention of offending anyone with references that may or may not have been about a previous post. And the point that I was making perhaps in a way that was not understood by some is that there are some people who don't see why anyone would believe in what is essentially nothing but a very old book with nothing to prove that it is anything but fiction. The original post is stating why he doesn't think that there is a god right? well why is it that there are so many people who try to argue the point that there is a god? I don't have a need to argue the point that there isn't really I just would like personally to understand why it is that you believe? With something that makes sense that is.....Something that can not have another explanation to it. And something other then quotes from the exact book that i feel is fiction. If this doesn't make sense to some of you I'm sorry but it is what it is....and that is just my opinion grin2.gif

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Sherapy

Bacca Hyper Mako good posts

the morality part. I find interesting is that great problems have arisen because societies seek to change yet morals do not, Religion impedes and stops change,yet change is the nature of life,you can't create a better life by dening life!!!

for whatever reasons the God that has been created is a God with needs, somewhere someone decided God had needs and needs people to behave in a certin way and how to go about doing that, These morals are Human created contructs based on a God with needs, they are false and they aren't working , is my take ,

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hyperactive

sheri, the reason the gods have had needs is because man modeled them on what he understood best, himself!

thus the truest line on gods was spoken: "man made the gods in the image of himself".

welcome to the anthropocentric view of the universe! something i think you and i agree is an approach we as a species have to move away from.

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Sherapy
sheri, the reason the gods have had needs is because man modeled them on what he understood best, himself!

thus the truest line on gods was spoken: "man made the gods in the image of himself".

welcome to the anthropocentric view of the universe!  something i think you and i agree is an approach we as a species have to move away from.

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Hyper very good point, very good point indeed, There we have it once and for all the bible is a fraud!!!!

I would add that what a human "KNOWS" in its cells about God and what it "BELIEVES" about God are to different things completely. Namaste Sheri

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Putte
There we have it once and for all the bible is a fraud!!!!

774261[/snapback]

Yes, just because someone says so!

Once again - giving reasons for why something happens does not make it a real event. It would take more than that to convince me, had I been a believer.

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bacca

You two are so smart grin2.gif I happen to agree with both Sheri and hyper on this one there is something very odd to me about people who so strongly defend those books. Almost as if they are proven wrong there whole worlds would come tumbling down around them. When in all honesty nothing would change except there wouldn't be any reason to worry so much about little things like pre-marital sex and the like. Although that would also take away their free license to try and control other people into doing what they mistakenly think is the right and only path to morality.....

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mako
God was created to help people stick together and prosper. And I don't think it was a bad thing! Society might not have advanced past what middle eastern poor people have now if they didn't make it, so it was a great idea to conjure that illusion up!

A further point that I had meant to make on this particular point. Society probably would have progressed faster and farther that what we have today had not Christianity come along. The overzealous bishops and monks of the 3rd and 4th centuries burned all of the accumulated philosophy (not a great loss) and science of the preceding civilizations (a great loss, especially that of the Greeks). Had this not have happened it is entirely possible that the Empire would not have fallen as fast as it did and the Greek scholars would have continued their exploration of the sciences (the barbarian invasions resultied in almost no lose of knowledge, they embrace the Greek learning and seldom, if ever, burned books). This might have put us on the moon by the 1400’s, instead of in the Americas! yes.gif

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hyperactive

mako. it is true we lost a great deal of knowledge thanks to the church.

however, i am not so quick as you to play "alternative history" for people tend to idealize the alternatives. man has a history of discovering things before he is ready to comprehend said things. it is also possible we could have destroyed ourselves by the 1500's had history been different.

for society to work, there needs to be that binding ingredient and as much as i would like to see the religions of the past few centuries die off i must also consider what would stand in their place. perhaps man is now ready to have a society without such structures, but if he is it is a new development (i personally think we are going through a social restructuring as we move towards a global society that will see the lifespan of the long-term structures shrink and the lifespan of the short-term structures grow).

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mako

I wasn't advocating the death of public religion, just pointing out the damage done by Christianity. Had Christianity not come along, the other religions available would have just as capable of bond society and historically showed much less a preponderance for violence and a greater love of knowledge. I still maintain that we would have (possibily) been on the moon in 1492 althought it is possible that we might have destroyed ourselves by now. wink2.gif

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Greatness

Probably from all the ecosystems that are getting messed up by polution and stuff.

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hyperactive

agreed, mako. christianity perfected the model of dominate and decimate. thumbsup.gif

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Sherapy
mako.  it is true we lost a great deal of knowledge thanks to the church.

however, i am not so quick as you to play "alternative history" for people tend to idealize the alternatives.  man has a history of discovering things before he is ready to comprehend said things.  it is also possible we could have destroyed ourselves by the 1500's had history been different.

for society to work, there needs to be that binding ingredient and as much as i would like to see the religions of the past few centuries die off i must also consider what would stand in their place.  perhaps man is now ready to have a society without such structures, but if he is it is a new development (i personally think we are going through a social restructuring as we move towards a global society that will see the lifespan of the long-term structures shrink and the lifespan of the short-term structures grow).

774369[/snapback]

Bacca good point also.

Hyper , you have made a great point we have done the same with technology we as a conciousness haven't grpwn in our awareness to handle it, what we need is a growth in conciousness , as long as we have those that insist they know everything there is to know about the universe we wil have very little progress and lots more problems, Go ahead keep religions but only keep what is working for the betterment of all get rid of the rest. Namaste sheri

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saucy

Back in the day, it wasn't all that uncommon to "keep it in the family." What Carlos Mencia said about Adam and Eve having all those kids, sons and daughters...I don't know if you've read Genesis, but I heard of Cain, Abel and Seth. That's it. You need to stop "learning" about religion from the media and Comedy Central. Like I said, people liked to keep the line in the family and it's recorded throughout history.

Someone said that it's funny how all the Christians jumped on Wong for his comment, but I wonder what would happen if I started a thread that said, "Evolution is fake!" Hey, I've done it and I got jumped on and insulted. Just admit that it goes both ways.

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TaintedDoughnuts
Sad.. truly sad.. another fruit cake thinking he can join UM and change what every believes!!!  rolleyes.gif  Just because they said so! hmm.gif

774081[/snapback]

You have fruit cake?! Can I have some? I'll give you a dollar! thumbsup.gif Or a doughnut original.gif

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hyperactive
Just admit that it goes both ways.

and will your church admit sexuality goes both ways?

isn't it rather funny the church claims man is made in god's image, and then proceeds to denounce so much of what man is? is it not in essence denouncing much of what its own god is?

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eveningsky339
Sad.. truly sad.. another fruit cake thinking he can join UM and change what every believes!!! rolleyes.gif Just because they said so! hmm.gif

We've all done it before... well, some of us anyway.

A rule of thumb: you can tell when a new member is ticked off when he doesn't respond to any of the replies to his post.

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Something Like Laughter
Just admit that it goes both ways.

and will your church admit sexuality goes both ways?

isn't it rather funny the church claims man is made in god's image, and then proceeds to denounce so much of what man is? is it not in essence denouncing much of what its own god is?

774574[/snapback]

now that is a prime example of a red herring.

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