A flaw in the concept of Heaven.

[Deception]

Now i got to thinking about this. Now what i have always been taught is that Heaven is a place of internal happiness. A better place.

But this means that people who have done terrible things could be in Heaven right now. Given a free ticket by there family members.

What i mean is if my mother goes to heaven and i don't. Then how in the world will my mother have internal happiness? She couldn't. Same goes for anyone. If you was to get into heaven, and your closest loved one didn't. Would you be happy?

So if heaven is truly a place of forever happiness, then murders, child molesters, non-believers, and maniacs could be in heaven. Simply because there loved ones who would never turn there backs on them got in.

[Richdog]

Because supposedly upon entering heaven you find that true sense of happiness... the fact you weren't there likely wouldnt take away that happiness... it would just make her feel regret and a tinge of sadness. I'm sure she would understand why her son, a child molester, was to go to hell...

[Deception]

Yes, but i wouldn't care if my brother killed someone in cold blood. If i knew he was in a place as terrible as hell there would be no way i would be happy.

And just the feeling of helplessness would be enough to drive me insane.

Just to think. A person whom you knew your entire life on earth. Would no longer be with you. for eternity.

Edited November 14, 2005 by Deception

[RogueActOfVengence]

I thought in heaven your suppose to love everyone equally, you forget everything from down here so you love everyone for being part of gods creation and love them equally?

or am i wrong?....i am not religious but thats what my wife tells me the bible says when i raise the same question to her, she finds that explanation offensive on the basis that it would mean she would love me and everyone else the same.

if what she was told in church or whatever years back is true then you would feel the exact same about a child murderer as you would your child.....

this is just one of the reasons i am not religious

Rogue

[+Link of Hyrule]

First, presumably you mean "eternal", not "internal". I guess internal fits too, but eternal happiness is much more common.

And to answer the question, since it seems you are speaking of the Christian idea of heaven, I'll answer it from a Christian viewpoint. That is, according to the Bible, the memory of those who are in hell is wiped away.

Caviet - I do not believe in Hell as a place of torture, but separation from God, and perhaps even simply ceasing to exist (I haven't quite decided on the last yet).

So, assuming that they cease to exist, the memory of them is erased, it would be like they never were. Assuming they are simply separated from God, then they would be out in the cold while you inside would still have no knowledge of them. Either way, those in heaven would not realise.

Does that answer your question?

Regards, PA

[Deception]

And to answer the question, since it seems you are speaking of the Christian idea of heaven, I'll answer it from a Christian viewpoint. That is, according to the Bible, the memory of those who are in hell is wiped away.

So what you mean is that even though i my brother and i spent years on top of years together on earth i wouldn't remember him in Heaven? (again these are just examples.)

So heaven is really like being born again. With all the memories that i wouldn't give anything for taken away from me. Well that has shine alot of light on the situation.

First, presumably you mean "eternal", not "internal". I guess internal fits too, but eternal happiness is much more common.

Sorry English isn't my first language, so i get confused on some of the words that sound the same. (and to get all of the spelling a punctuation right i use a program)

[jagerthorn]

I suppose I can answer this from three view points:

1.) Pretend that there is no such thing as Hell; if God said that everybody is forgiven in the end and that we will all go to Heaven. We are all humans, and we commit sins - we should always be forgiven for our animal mistakes and behaviors.

2.) God tests every human being on this Earth, and when they die they are marked by the # of sins they have committed. They either make it into Hell, Heaven, or simply ceased to exist at all because they have done good yet they do not believe in God.

3.) We don't even enter heaven or hell; we are always reborn into a different body.

Naturally, I go more by second one but no one can say for sure.

[Yelekiah]

Then how in the world will my mother have internal happiness? She couldn't.

In the Secrets of Enoch, Enoch describes ten heavens. The tenth heaven is where God resides.

If there is more than one heaven, then there is a greater chance that you could go to at least one of them.

[tags]

In the Secrets of Enoch, Enoch describes ten heavens. The tenth heaven is where God resides.

If there is more than one heaven, then there is a greater chance that you could go to at least one of them.

there seems to be only one heaven based on the bible. if you dont believe the bible its anyones guess how many heavens there are, how many hells and if they even exist!

[Yelekiah]

There are supposed to be levels of hell, but that's another topic.

Ok, how will your mother be happy?

Maybe hell isn't so bad afterall. Perhaps the devil just gave it a bad wrap...

Eskimos were given a description of hell, and you know what they said?...oo, take me there.

PS-Enoch pre-dates the Bible

Edited November 14, 2005 by Yelekiah

[Archimboldo]

And to answer the question, since it seems you are speaking of the Christian idea of heaven, I'll answer it from a Christian viewpoint. That is, according to the Bible, the memory of those who are in hell is wiped away.

What flavour of Christianity is that, and does this amnesia theory have any support from the Bible?

It seems a little unkind to lobotomise the faithful.

Arc

[+Link of Hyrule]

It seems a little unkind to lobotomise the faithful.

Sarcasm of lobotomies aside, is it any less unkind to leave a person knowing their Mother/Father/Brother/Sister/Spouse/Former Roommate was not there in heaven with them?

As to your first question, this doctrine is in most mainstream Christian beliefs. You'll find the biblical basis from one of the Prophets in the Old Testament. I'll have to do some research to find the exact passage, but it says something along the lines of "they will be no more, even the memory of them will be gone".

I'll try and get the specifics for you later.

Regards, PA

Edited November 14, 2005 by Paranoid Android

[Archimboldo]

Sarcasm of lobotomies aside, is it any less unkind to leave a person knowing their Mother/Father/Brother/Sister/Spouse/Former Roommate was not there in heaven with them?

I don't know. Some families aren't all that close.

I'm philosophically opposed to any form of censorship, but I do understand practical realities.

Would I know that my memories had been taken from me?

As to your first question, this doctrine is in most mainstream Christian beliefs. You'll find the biblical basis from one of the Prophets in the Old Testament. I'll have to do some research to find the exact passage, but it says something along the lines of "they will be no more, even the memory of them will be gone".

That sounds similar to a passage in Ecclesiastes, but there Solomon is talking about the dead, rather than condemned souls.

I'll try and get the specifics for you later.

Thank you.

Arc

[ShaunZero]

Caviet - I do not believe in Hell as a place of torture, but separation from God, and perhaps even simply ceasing to exist (I haven't quite decided on the last yet).

Second that. I don't beleie hell is a place of torture either, so in my opinion that rules out having to worried about a loved one being tortured for eternity.

[+Link of Hyrule]

That sounds similar to a passage in Ecclesiastes, but there Solomon is talking about the dead, rather than condemned souls.

Yeah, that was my thought when I was trying to remember the quote, but I don't think Ecclesiastes has anything to do with actual life after death. I'm pretty sure it's from the prophets somewhere.

Regards, PA

[TheEssenceofExcellence]

Now i got to thinking about this. Now what i have always been taught is that Heaven is a place of internal happiness. A better place.

But this means that people who have done terrible things could be in Heaven right now. Given a free ticket by there family members.

What i mean is if my mother goes to heaven and i don't. Then how in the world will my mother have internal happiness? She couldn't. Same goes for anyone. If you was to get into heaven, and your closest loved one didn't. Would you be happy?

So if heaven is truly a place of forever happiness, then murders, child molesters, non-believers, and maniacs could be in heaven. Simply because there loved ones who would never turn there backs on them got in.

I'm not sure about the not remembering people who go to hell thing.

But generally speaking, if you value your family members above God then you probably won't be getting into Heaven anyway. The Bible says that you are supposed to love God above all others including your mother, father, children, ect... So if your a good person who loves God, but you love your family members more and you end up in Heaven and your mad that God hasn't let your evil relatives into Heaven with you, then your probably going to P the big man off and might get yourself kicked out of Heaven.

You're supposed to love your neighbors and such, and you should definitely pray for them. If you learn they are going to be condemed you should obviously pray for the Lord to have mercy on them and to forgive them. God wants you to do that. But if you just out right value your family over God and can't find peace, understanding, and happiness in the presence of the Lord....then you'll probably be kicked out or not permitted into Heaven.

It goes back to when God asked Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac.... God was testing Abraham's faith by seeing if he loved God enough that he was willing to kill his son. Abraham was, and when God saw that Abraham's faith was strong he stopped Abraham from killing Isaac. God was never going to allow Isaac to be killed, but he needed to test Abraham's faith. This story is an example of how we are all supposed to put God before everyone and everything else. He created everything, and without him we wouldn't be here, there would be no life without God, which is why we are supposed to love and serve him and put him above all others including our family members.

If someone you care about isn't permitted into Heaven it is for good reason.

[Elijahs Light]

I beleive that the planet we live on is 'Hell', as it is here that we choose to be re-incarnated to balance our Karma.

[LoopyLou]

I believe that Hell in the end times will mean separation from God..People who are in Heaven will have no memory of those separated from them as that would be unbearable and seeing as Heaven is meant to be perfect that would defeat the object. It's up to each individual to get themselves right in the eyes of God before they pass on if that's what you believe.

[GIDEON MAGE]

But generally speaking, if you value your family members above God then you probably won't be getting into Heaven anyway. The Bible says that you are supposed to love God above all others including your mother, father, children, ect... So if your a good person who loves God, but you love your family members more and you end up in Heaven and your mad that God hasn't let your evil relatives into Heaven with you, then your probably going to P the big man off and might get yourself kicked out of Heaven.

You're supposed to love your neighbors and such, and you should definitely pray for them. If you learn they are going to be condemed you should obviously pray for the Lord to have mercy on them and to forgive them. God wants you to do that. But if you just out right value your family over God and can't find peace, understanding, and happiness in the presence of the Lord....then you'll probably be kicked out or not permitted into Heaven.

this is all new testament xian mumbo-jumbo again. ramster, I was beginning to think more of you until I read this.there is nothing whatsoever in the Tanach (hebrew scriptures) about hell. According to the Tanach, we go to a place called She'ol, and work our way eventually back to God. It is wonderful that you can refer to Genesis and misinterpret it according to n.t. nonsense. Ask one of your Jewish friends and they will explain the story. The "Binding of Isaac" was about obedience, not faith. Abraham proved to God that he would obey him, to the letter, no matter what the consequences. This is one reason why Jews refused to accept your xian nonsense. YHVH never asks you to reject your family. If your God were real, I would willingly go to hell rather than see my 81 year old mother, who is an atheist, go to hell while I went to heaven. I reject your triune n.t. God, I am truly sorry you worship such a hateful deity who inflicts suffering on his creations. YHVH does not. Everyone returns to him after their time in She'ol. Everyone, none is lost. Depending on your adherence to the commandments (all 613), and how good a person you were, lengthens or shortens your separation form the Name. Nothing permanent. "Heaven" and "hell" are just pagan concepts incorporated into xianity to try to scare people to convert. when the council of constantinople wrote the n.t. for emperor theoidosius, they knew little about Judiasm, its customs or beliefs. Xianity believes in a hateful, vengeful, punishing God.

[ramster83]

this is all new testament xian mumbo-jumbo again. ramster, I was beginning to think more of you until I read this.there is nothing whatsoever in the Tanach (hebrew scriptures) about hell. According to the Tanach, we go to a place called She'ol, and work our way eventually back to God. It is wonderful that you can refer to Genesis and misinterpret it according to n.t. nonsense. Ask one of your Jewish friends and they will explain the story. The "Binding of Isaac" was about obedience, not faith. Abraham proved to God that he would obey him, to the letter, no matter what the consequences. This is one reason why Jews refused to accept your xian nonsense. YHVH never asks you to reject your family. If your God were real, I would willingly go to hell rather than see my 81 year old mother, who is an atheist, go to hell while I went to heaven. I reject your triune n.t. God, I am truly sorry you worship such a hateful deity who inflicts suffering on his creations. YHVH does not. Everyone returns to him after their time in She'ol. Everyone, none is lost. Depending on your adherence to the commandments (all 613), and how good a person you were, lengthens or shortens your separation form the Name. Nothing permanent. "Heaven" and "hell" are just pagan concepts incorporated into xianity to try to scare people to convert. when the council of constantinople wrote the n.t. for emperor theoidosius, they knew little about Judiasm, its customs or beliefs. Xianity believes in a hateful, vengeful, punishing God.

Gideon i did not write that post (Second time you done that lol - come on!) but im glad to see youre thinking more of me

. Im sure you've read my posts and seen i dont restrict myself to the belief that all people are going to hell. Yet i do believe in the Abrahamic God- who in essence to me...Is the same God the Jews, Muslims and Christians worship, yet i do believe things have been corrupted and such which is why i dont restrict myself to one particular belief system. I dont think one of these religions has the ultimate truth and message that God wanted to share with us, which is why i think 3 of the great faiths should work together, open their minds- that heir God loves them all and doesn't want any of their ridiculous fighting done on his name- we fight so much- at the same time when one of the faiths is attacked, its the other 2 abrahamic faiths that stick up for the victimized one...we're a family. Oh im a unitarian Christian so basically i too reject the "Trinity". Its one God/one Universe.

[GIDEON MAGE]

whoops-the guy is using your old avatar! forgive me.

[Radioactive Man]

"And to answer the question, since it seems you are speaking of the Christian idea of heaven, I'll answer it from a Christian viewpoint. That is, according to the Bible, the memory of those who are in hell is wiped away."

Yeah, because people have been to heaven before.

And the Bible is so true. I mean literally. Seriously, everything in it, I mean, it's the greatest book ever written. NOT.

Edited November 15, 2005 by hechtal

[ramster83]

whoops-the guy is using your old avatar! forgive me.

I never used that avatar man... Of course you're forgiven! Later.

[ramster83]

"And to answer the question, since it seems you are speaking of the Christian idea of heaven, I'll answer it from a Christian viewpoint. That is, according to the Bible, the memory of those who are in hell is wiped away."

Yeah, because people have been to heaven before.

And the Bible is so true. I mean literally. Seriously, everything in it, I mean, it's the greatest book ever written. NOT.

Theres being skeptic- and theres being immature...I wander which category best matches your respone. The person answered in their own opinion based on their religion- they never said their religion was right. Secondly about the Bible being so true? Some of it is factual, so believe as you want. Ive mentioned those that find nothing BUT negativity in the Bible are blind to its fact...Any holy book for that matter. Theres good in the bible and what is good- deserves some credit.

Edited November 15, 2005 by ramster83

[Bluefinger]

Now i got to thinking about this. Now what i have always been taught is that Heaven is a place of internal happiness. A better place.

But this means that people who have done terrible things could be in Heaven right now. Given a free ticket by there family members.

What i mean is if my mother goes to heaven and i don't. Then how in the world will my mother have internal happiness? She couldn't. Same goes for anyone. If you was to get into heaven, and your closest loved one didn't. Would you be happy?

So if heaven is truly a place of forever happiness, then murders, child molesters, non-believers, and maniacs could be in heaven. Simply because there loved ones who would never turn there backs on them got in.

very interesting post. However, that sounds like a Holy Roman Empire method of teaching purgatory, rather than the true doctrine of salvation. The truth is, if you don't repent, you will not make it into heaven. Jesus made it clear that baptism and repentance is very neccessary to enter the kingdom of God. Ontop of that, you have to let God's will work in your life instead of your own. As Jesus said, let the dead bury the dead. So let the living follow God.

Sure its an unfortunate thing that loved ones won't make it into heaven for their sins, but that shows that religion was never to blame for the actions and choices people made.

God bless