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Jesusfan

Why Is Jesus And Christianity So Hated?

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seanph
No other gods before me means that we shouldn't worship Allah, Buddah, the Goddess, The freakin Spagetti monstor.

Thou hast rejected the ONE TRUE GOD--THE FLYING SM?!?! Boiling tomatoe sauce be upon your head!

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seanph
So we as a human race would understand him better. It was apart of the plan. That looks not so perfect in the eyes of most mankind.

The god of the universe couldn't create a being capable of understanding Him?

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101

The god of the universe couldn't create a being capable of understanding Him?

We do understand him MORE now through Christ Jesus. It is not that we don't understand him or didn't. It is that we can now understand God better.

I am still a part of the church Brother Sean right? :D

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seanph

Always and forever, Sister Suzy-Q! :yes:

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101

Always and forever, Sister Suzy-Q! :yes:

Yay me. :tu:

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zandore

zandore

Stop being silly you have to believe in god to then believe in the Satan and if you believe in the Satan then you just contradicted yourself in you belief.....let me break it down for you.......your just confused trying to make sense of your belief what ever it is. unless your just playing with us.

:lol: You want to know something MC.....you are the one that is confused!

Any one that has been here can tell you what I think of religion. :td:

As far as playing with you what makes you think/feel that?

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NicktheApostel

A lot of people on here argue just for the sake of the argument. That is funny when it is a sketch on Monty Python but in reality its just annoying. Stop picking apart each other and make your stand. Make your testimony people are not won or lost to the Lord through childish bickering it is through testimony that we make a difference. Personally, I believe Jesus Christ is the son of the God. The God of Israel. The God of Jacob. The God of present christianity. Why? Because I went through 6 years of drug and alcohol abuse. I smoked pot by the sacks every day 365 days a year and got blistering drunk anytime I could afford it. Also I did cocaine, mushrooms, oxycontin, and a long list of uppers and downers basically everything someone could get there hands on. I ruined my life. It was my fault it was my responsibility and I screwed up. I had nothing left to live for and wanted to die. Every day I felt more and more pain and caused others more and more pain. I didnt deserve to live and honestly didnt care if I did. That's when I was saved. Really saved. At the end of a horrible tunnel that I had carved I somehow found light. I dont deserve it. Most people dont. But it was given to me as it is given to all. True love that never dies a light that never goes out. Jesus Christ is that love and that light. I now cherish everyday. I have found happiness in the things that seemed so trivial to me that I once took for granted. My control over my life put me in shackles. When I let Jesus take control I was set free. And that is what it is all about. So, dont tear my story apart and look for things that are wrong with my grammar and whatever else you can do to make yourself feel more superior. Just hear my story.

Thanks, Nick

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101

Cool story NIck.

That is special.

Sometimes when things have control of you it is very hard to let go of them.

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zandore

Welcome NicktheApostel to UM forum.

And that is what it is all about. So, dont tear my story apart and look for things that are wrong with my grammar and whatever else you can do to make yourself feel more superior. Just hear my story.
I won't (at least right now) but I can not say about others.

Fair enough?

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Jesusfan

Why would a God--a perfect being--have a son? A perfect being lives in a state of perfection and requires nothing--a son, you and I ... nothing!

Sean

That is the beauty of the Truine God though... he has always existed as complete within Himself, as the Father Loved the Son so truthfully and fully that this Love was another literal Being within the GodHead... The Holy Spirit...

So God being Truine does not reduce perfection, rather it enhances it from Human perspective, as We can relate more fully to a God who already had an object of perfect love from all Eternity, His own Son, and by Him sending that Son to earth as jesus the Nazarene, such great is the Love of God!

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mako
The answer is because of the bible and it's prophecy. Prophecy is being fulfilled, but the only ones who know it are Christians who follow prophecy. They are the only ones who know what is comming. They are the only ones who can get in the way of the new world order one world government and alert the people of the world as to whats really about to happen. Although God rules all, he has allowed Satan to rule earth, and will be setting up his(Satan's) kingdom on earth for a short time before the Jews finally are saved by their messiah (second coming of Christ) and there are 1000 years of peace.

In order for the new world order/world government to be accomplished Christianity must be destroyed.

Can we spell paranoia, children? That has to be the biggest load of adult male bovine manure that you have ever put out!

Well... Do we deserve to be punished? Do we as good parents discipline our Children in order to help them make better choices and decisions?

Thing about God is that He is no repecter of persons, as ALL have fallen short of His glory, ALL are born dead in sins ans trespasses, and ALL of us are sinners by both birth and decisions made...

Yes, all of us deserve to be punished, in the sense that we have all turned away from the light of God, and chosen to walk in darkness, but good news is that God has provided in our stead the sacrifice to atone and render payment for our sins, jesus Christ...

And Jesus did not deserve punishment, rather He purpose in coming to this Earth WAS to be our sacrifice/propiation for our sins, so that God could declare justify a sinner and call him a saint...

So ALL of us deserve to be judged and found gulity for our sins commited against others and God, but God has provided way out of judgement, as God judged the World already in Christ, and those who abide in jesus Christ have had judgement passed over themm..

Jesus is the Passover Lamb for all those willing to allow His blood to be a cleansing agent for their sins, just as lamb blood was in the OT Passover...

So this is justification to torture infinitely for finite sins? That’s kinda like branding a 2 year old with a white hot iron because he wet his bed! I can think of no “sin” that deserves eternal torment! :yes:

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Jesusfan

The god of the universe couldn't create a being capable of understanding Him?

He originally did, as perfect Human beings, but when they fel, and Sin entered into the Creation of God, than all Humans born since than have been disconnected spiritually from knowing God, for our Spiritual side is dead in sins until getting reborn through power of Holy Spirit coming to requicken our spiritual natures once agin...

AS the Bible states... That natural man receives not the things that are spritual, as they are foolishness to him/her....

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Jesusfan

Can we spell paranoia, children? That has to be the biggest load of adult male bovine manure that you have ever put out!

So this is justification to torture infinitely for finite sins? That’s kinda like branding a 2 year old with a white hot iron because he wet his bed! I can think of no “sin” that deserves eternal torment! :yes:

God created Mankind to live on and exist forever... it just than man will choose to either turn to Christ and live forever with God, and Christ takes the penalty for our sinfulness, or else we reject Christ, and decide to take it fully upon ourselves... And it is NOT a specif sin that gets one punished, but a life choice to refuse Christ in this life... God will honor your decision, as you will than spend Eternity totally apart from presense of God... that is untimate hell, living forward without any hope or chance of being at ANY time in Presense and person of God...

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Stellar

You want to know why certain people dislike christianity? Read the post above. Thats why. Those kinds of people are becomming more and more common, sadly.

Edited by Stellar

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mako
God created Mankind to live on and exist forever

According to your mythology, that ain’t true – Genesis 3:22 and the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live forever. Man evidentially by this verse was not created to “live on and exist forever”, it in fact seems to be a fear of God that he would do so and led to the expulsion from the Garden!

but a life choice to refuse Christ in this life... God will honor your decision,

How can one make a valid decision without valid data? If your God wants us to make a decision, then he should give us non-contradictory data with which to base our decision on. After all, he did it for the old timers!

You want to know why certain people dislike christianity? Read the post above. Thats why. Those kinds of people are becomming more and more common, sadly.

It's called desperation Stellar. Their religion is dying at an accelerating rate and it worries them. Look for more and more of it. They are even getting desperate enough that the "White" chruches are inviting the African American, Korean and Hispanic churches of the same denomination to join with them....something that wouldn't have happend even 10 years ago! :yes:

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seanph

NicktheApostel, I'm certainly thrilled that you turned your life around. Fantastic! That said, I hear such testimony all the time. God saved me from this or that. I must disagree. I believe there to be a FAR more reasonable explanation for your turnaround. You. Why? Because--IMHO--it was your own strength, courage and will that changed your life--not some invisible deity. You. You said enough is enough and fought to change your life. Happens to many millions of people every day ... and without calling on some higher power. It's a simple matter of willpower. And I speak from personal experience--an experience far more difficult than yours.

My experience ... I was left quadriplegic after a car accident at the age of seventeen. I died--and was revived--twice. I was then given a less than 10 % chance of survival. I beat the odds. I was then given a 5 % chance that I would ever breath on my own, without the aid of a ventilator. I beat the odds. I was also told that I would require a pacemaker. I beat the odds. And how did I beat the odds? Not divine intervention ... but shear will and determination. Nothing more. I simply wanted to live, and did.

My brother ... Is a deranged alcoholic. I, during my fifteen years as a devout Christian, prayed for his healing thousands of times. Nothing happened. He's even worse today--even though he, himself, begged god for help, to be healed. The same goes for me. Thousands of people through prayer chains and the laying on of hands etc.--including a family member who is an ordained minister--prayed for my healing. Nothing. In fact, I'm in far worse shape, in failing health today. Why is that if God exists and answers prayers as stated in the scriptures? He answered your prayers, yes? Why not mine? This should not be the case, for Jesus supposedly said ...

In Matthew 17:20 Jesus says:

For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.

This message is reiterated in Mark 11:24 when Jesus says:

Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

In Matthew 18:19 Jesus says:

Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Again, you (IMHO), like myself, changed your life ... and nobody else.

Sean

Edited by seanph

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scoobysnack

Sean,

I prayed for the ability to fly, but I still can't. Of course countless prayers have gone unanswered in a timely fashion according to human life time. We live in the world of Fastfood, and 24 hour news. We expect everything to happen immediately. How do you know your prayers are not being answered in a way you don't recognize. Maybe it is essential to your experience on earth, that you are handicapped. Think of it as a blessing in disguise, and not a curse. You have been humbled more then others. Life on earth, and everything that happens to us is really beyond our comprehension. I will share my experience in life that led me to fully believe in God, and how it gave me much needed comfort. For the time being:

Everything is perfect and part of the plan, even if we can't comprehend what the plan could possibly be. God brings suffering into our lives in order to humble us or purify our character. In the end it will help you grow closer to God. Life on earth is merely a blink of the eye in spiritual time. We are here to experience life in the physical which offers us opportunities that otherwise could not be taken advantage of. We can learn from our mistakes, which is why making mistakes is a part of life. If people of earth had a better relationship with God, the suffering would not be needed. God loves us all, and even loves Satan enough to give him freewill on earth.

Here are some reasons

SUFFERING:

A Biblical Survey Of Its Purpose

Rev. Jeffrey R. Funk

Healthcare Chaplains Ministry Association

No simple answers are adequate for the piercing cries of the soul who yearns to know why. One can only agree with Job:

For man is born to trouble as surely as sparks fly upward (57). Man, who is born of woman, is short-lived and full of turmoil (141).

Nevertheless, the Scriptures do give some insights into a positive understanding of suffering.

To draw us closer to God and make us fully dependent on Him alone. (Job; Psalm 146; 11967, 71; Amos 46-13; 54; 2 Corinthians 18-10; 127-10) A good splash of ice-cold suffering can certainly wake you out of a spiritual slumber.

To demonstrate our total commitment to God/Christ. (Job 427-17; 2 Corinthians 4; 1 Peter 17; James 13) It's certainly difficult to straddle the spiritual fence while going through suffering-you usually stand on either one side or the other.

To refine our character. (Proverbs 173; Romans 53-5; 828-29; 1 Peter 16-7; 510; James 12-4; Hebrews 1210-11)

Picture a gold or silver smith subjecting his crude ore to intense heat, causing the impurities of the molten mass to rise to the surface so that they may be skimmed off. The smith is patient with the purification process, at times even increasing the heat to make sure he gets rid of all the impurities. From time to time he looks into the pot to see if his face is mirrored in the clear surface of the molten metal. When he can clearly see his image reflected in the pure, molten metal, he knows that the gold or silver has reached its purest state. Many people believe that the greatest "quality of life" is experiencing the absence of pain and suffering. But that's not the right perspective. The best quality of life is being conformed into Christ's image. And suffering is the chisel that God most often uses to shape our character. Like agates in a tumbler, suffering can be allowed by God to smooth out the jagged edges of our character. You see, God is more concerned with our character than He is with our comfort.

To manifest the life of Christ in and through us. (2 Corinthians 47-11)

The Chinese character for the word "crisis" includes the word "danger" plus the word "opportunity." God brings suffering into our lives, not to knock us down and crush us, but to build us up into the image of Christ. These hard times are actually life-changing opportunities. Let's face it: pressure produces. We enjoy the wonderful benefits of productive pressure when it's applied to an orange (orange juice) or peanuts (peanut butter). It's the fiery furnace that produces the hardened steel. It's the bruised flower that produces its fragrant perfume.

To strengthen us. (1 Peter 510; Philippians 114)

Be assured of this fact: the Good Potter does not try to crack the pot when He puts it into the fire. His primary purpose is to make the pot stronger and more usable. When we experience trials, that suffering is trying to produce good things in our lives.

To teach us patience, endurance. (Romans 51-5; 1 Peter 218-25; James 12-4) Sometimes God is willing to sacrifice our comfort in order to strengthen our character.

To teach us obedience and self-control. (Hebrews 58)

It is often only in the crucible of life that we learn the true essence of submission and self-discipline.

To increase our faith. (Genesis 22; Job 1314-15; 427-17; Psalm 461, 10; Jeremiah 2911) While knocked flat on our back in a tempest, we can look up and find that He is faithful and worthy of our trust in the midst of the storms of life as well as in the calm.

To produce a broken and contrite heart. (Psalm 32; 51) Sometimes suffering can soften even the hardest heart.

To humble us. (Job 425-6; 2 Corinthians 127; 1 Peter 56-7) Self-centeredness can block spiritual progress.

http://www.hcmachaplains.org/commentary5.html

Edited by scoobysnack

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emperorman

wow, i'm gone for like 3 days, and the forums jumps 3 pages...

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Jesusfan

NicktheApostel, I'm certainly thrilled that you turned your life around. Fantastic! That said, I hear such testimony all the time. God saved me from this or that. I must disagree. I believe there to be a FAR more reasonable explanation for your turnaround. You. Why? Because--IMHO--it was your own strength, courage and will that changed your life--not some invisible deity. You. You said enough is enough and fought to change your life. Happens to many millions of people every day ... and without calling on some higher power. It's a simple matter of willpower. And I speak from personal experience--an experience far more difficult than yours.

My experience ... I was left quadriplegic after a car accident at the age of seventeen. I died--and was revived--twice. I was then given a less than 10 % chance of survival. I beat the odds. I was then given a 5 % chance that I would ever breath on my own, without the aid of a ventilator. I beat the odds. I was also told that I would require a pacemaker. I beat the odds. And how did I beat the odds? Not divine intervention ... but shear will and determination. Nothing more. I simply wanted to live, and did.

My brother ... Is a deranged alcoholic. I, during my fifteen years as a devout Christian, prayed for his healing thousands of times. Nothing happened. He's even worse today--even though he, himself, begged god for help, to be healed. The same goes for me. Thousands of people through prayer chains and the laying on of hands etc.--including a family member who is an ordained minister--prayed for my healing. Nothing. In fact, I'm in far worse shape, in failing health today. Why is that if God exists and answers prayers as stated in the scriptures? He answered your prayers, yes? Why not mine? This should not be the case, for Jesus supposedly said ...

In Matthew 17:20 Jesus says:

For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.

This message is reiterated in Mark 11:24 when Jesus says:

Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

In Matthew 18:19 Jesus says:

Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Again, you (IMHO), like myself, changed your life ... and nobody else.

Sean

Thank you for sharing part of your life story, and I will be keeping you in my prayers Sean, that you might be able to experience the Love and peace of God for your own life...

Why do some prayers get answered, while others are prayed for faithfully, but no results?

Tough question, for sure, and I honestly don't know what the final answer is to this, but do know that God loves all of us, and that He wants to give us hope, faith, encouragement for our daily struggles...

My wife and I adopted 2 small boys from Russia, now they are 5 and 7, as my wife is unable to conceive due to an illness, and we have been trying since Jan 2004 to adopt a small girl from Russia, and the day we were to leave for Moscow, was the day her "real" Father showed up to contest the adoption, and it fell through... We are now trying to get one from Ukraine, and have been since Feb 2005, but we just received notice that they have stopped ALL adoptions for 2005, and now earliest is "sometime" 2006..

Also, I have been diagnosed with advanced Khrone's disease past year, so that leaves Adoption up in the ait too..

Just shared this to let you know that bad things happen to all of us, and though God did not cause it directly to happen, my confidence is that he can and will work all things out for my good, according to his will and plan for me in Jesus Christ... That is my ultimate source for hope, in that Jesus is alive, and God is working everything for what He knows is the best, even though it might not exactly be what I think is the best...

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seanph
I prayed for the ability to fly, but I still can't.

Not funny.

Of course countless prayers have gone unanswered in a timely fashion according to human life time. We live in the world of Fastfood, and 24 hour news. We expect everything to happen immediately.

They should be answered immediately according to the scriptures. They are not, and that tells me that the supposed words of Jesus are blatantly false--a lie.

How do you know your prayers are not being answered in a way you don't recognize. Maybe it is essential to your experience on earth, that you are handicapped.

We should recognize an answered prayer. It should be obvious to all--particularly skeptics and scientists. The miraculous should be a common occurrence, as it was in the scriptures. It isn't.

Think of it as a blessing in disguise, and not a curse. You have been humbled more then others.

A blessing?! Oh my. Am I to thank this god for twenty years of suffering and pain?

I am thirty-seven. In about two years, I will be entering a nursing home to live out my final days. And I am to take that as a blessing?!

God brings suffering into our lives in order to humble us or purify our character.

And that god is a psychopath. To deliberately bring suffering upon the innocent is sick beyond comprehension.

In the end it will help you grow closer to God.

Making me (family) suffer within the confines of my own body--my own personal prison--has only driven me from believing in god. I no longer have a desire to know such a cruel deity.

We are here to experience life in the physical which offers us opportunities that otherwise could not be taken advantage of.

Hard to experience life in the physical ... when you can only shrug your shoulders. As for suffering and pain ... Those two are close personal friends. I know them intimately, for they have made themselves known--unlike god. If I am to live in the physical, I should also experience god in the physical. Never have. Why not?

We can learn from our mistakes, which is why making mistakes is a part of life.

How about this wonderful god of yours simply put in an appearance and explain to each of us what IT want us to learn? Explain to us where we have gone wrong, how we might correct our mistakes, forgive us, and then show us our true path. How wonderful that would be. How profoundly moving and life-changing. Why not teach us instead of punish us?

If people of earth had a better relationship with God, the suffering would not be needed. God loves us all, and even loves Satan enough to give him freewill on earth.

This is so sick, sadistic, and moronic that it does not deserve further comment. :no:

As for your comment that we are all a part of god's "plan"... This just shows how cruel and bloodthirsty this deity is.

Understanding God's Plan

by Marshall Brain

If you are a Christian, you are extremely familiar with "God's plan." This is the way that Christians traditionally explain things like amputations, cancer, hurricanes and car accidents.

For example, when God ignored the prayers of Neva Rogers and allowed the Red Lake gunman to shoot her in the head four times (see chapter 1), she died as part of God's plan. Her death had a purpose. God called her home for a reason. When two-year-old Ranika baked to death in a church van, her death was part of God's plan too (see chapter 4). If you are a Christian, you know how this works -- Even if something bad happens to a Christian, it is actually good because it is part of God's plan.

You can see how pervasive "God's plan" is by looking in Christian inspirational literature. For example, if we look in the book A Purpose Driven Life by Rick Warren, we find this remarkable paragraph in Chapter 2:

Because God made you for a reason, he also decided when you would be born and how long you would live. He planned the days of your life in advance, choosing the exact time of your birth and death. The Bible says, "You saw me before I was born and scheduled each day of my life before I began to breathe. Every day was recorded in your book!" [Psalm 139:16]

There is also this:

Regardless of the circumstances of your birth or who your parents are, God had a plan in creating you.

Under this view of the universe, God plans everything.

Take a moment and think about what Rick Warren said. Rick said, "He planned the days of your life in advance, choosing the exact time of your birth and death." Let's examine one simple implication of this statement. What this means is that God pre-planned every abortion that has taken place on our planet.

If you think about this implication for a few moments, you will begin to realize how impossible "God's plan" is. If the concept of "God's plan" is true, you can first of all see that God wants us to be aborting children. Every single abortion is planned by God, so God must be doing it for a reason. Second, you can see that both the mother who requests the abortion and the doctor who performs it are blameless. Since it is God who planned the abortion of the child (God chose the "exact time" of the death, according to Rick Warren), the mother and doctor are simply puppets who are fulfilling God's plan. You can also see that all the Christians who are fighting against abortion are missing the point. They are actually fighting against God's plan, and their fight is completely futile. God is the all-powerful ruler of the universe, and his plan is for more than a million children a year to die in the United States through abortion. [ref] Each one of those abortions was meticulously planned by God, so fighting against abortion is a totally wasted effort.

If you are a Christian, what you are thinking is, "God does not intend for us to perform abortions!" But if you believe what Rick is saying, then you are obviously incorrect. God is actually the direct cause of every abortion on earth. If you find that notion to be uncomfortable, I would agree with you. Unfortunately, that is the logical outcome of God's plan.

In order to better understand God's plan, let's look at one of the biggest global events that humans have ever witnessed: World War II. According to Encarta:

The human cost [of WWII], not including between 5.6 million and 5.9 million Jews killed in the Holocaust who were indirect victims of the war, is estimated to have been 55 million dead—25 million of those military and 30 million civilian.

In addition, according to Encarta:

61 countries participated in WWII

1.7 billion people participated in WWII

75% of all human beings alive at the time participated in WWII

World War II was obviously a major disaster -- perhaps the most horrific event the world has ever seen. It is safe to say that nearly every human being on planet Earth prayed to God that this war would end.

And don't forget Adolph Hitler. He was evil incarnate, and Hitler is well known for the atrocious things he did. It is interesting to look at Adolph Hitler in the context of prayer, and understand how Christians try to reconcile an all-loving, prayer-answering God with such a hateful man.

What I would like you to do right now is to consider this statement: "Hitler is part of God's Plan." Think about what Rick said:

He planned the days of your life in advance, choosing the exact time of your birth and death. The Bible says, "You saw me before I was born and scheduled each day of my life before I began to breathe. Every day was recorded in your book!" [Psalm 139:16]

Rick also says:

God never does anything accidentally, and he never makes mistakes. He has a reason for everything he creates. Every plant and every animal was planned by God, and every person was designed with a purpose in mind.

If God has a divine plan for each of us, then he had a divine plan for Hitler too. It is when you stop to think about it deeply that the contradictions hit you.

For example, simply think about what "God's plan" would actually mean. Since God is an all-powerful being, God's plan would, of necessity, need to be all-inclusive. Hitler and WWII would fit as one tiny piece in a supreme plan of massive proportions. Under an all-encompassing plan like this, the 60 million people who died in WWII all died for specific reasons -- each death had meaning -- and each death would have rippled through the world causing countless side-effects, also all part of God's plan. God's master plan would include everyone and everything, including Hitler and WWII.

Now let's imagine that you say a prayer in this sort of universe. What difference does it make? God has his plan, and that plan is running down its track like a freight train. If God has a plan, then everyone who died in the Holocaust died for a reason. They had to die, and each death had meaning. Therefore, Holocaust victims could pray all day, and they would still die. The idea of a "plan" makes the idea of a "prayer-answering relationship with God" ridiculous. Yet Christians attach themselves to both ideas, despite the irresolvable contradiction.

Think about what God's plan means for you personally. If the plan happens to say that you will get hit by a bus tomorrow, or that terrorists will blow you up, or that you will be shot in the head four times, then that's what will happen. It would be the same with any disease. If you contract cancer this afternoon and die three months later, that is God's plan for you. Praying to cure the cancer is a waste. God plans for you to die, so you will die. He has pre-programmed the exact time of your death. There is nothing you can do to change the plan -- no amount of prayer will help -- because your death will have meaning and your death will cause side-effects that are also part of the plan.

Who will you marry? You actually have no choice in the matter. God has pre-planned your wedding in minute detail. Rick Warren says, "God knew that that those two individuals [your parents] possessed exactly the right genetic makeup to create the custom 'you' that he had in mind. They had the DNA God wanted to make you." Therefore, your spouse was pre-chosen by God for you so that you would create the children who are a part of his plan. You also have no choice in the number of children you will have -- God has pre-planned their births.

In addition, this sort of universe means that Hitler is blameless. Hitler was not "evil," because Hitler had no free will at all. Hitler was simply an actor forced to play his role in God's plan. God planned for six million people to die in the Holocaust -- he planed their deaths in exact detail according to Rick Warren. Hitler had to kill those people. Hitler was God's puppet in making that those six million deaths happen right on schedule.

In the same way then, every murderer is blameless. Since God has planned each of our deaths in exact detail, murderers are actually essential to God's plan. Why do we punish them? We should be rewarding them for doing their God-planned duty. What if you get raped tomorrow and get pregnant? God did that because he planned the exact time of that child's birth and death. God actually pre-planned your rape, and the rapist was God's puppet. Rather than hating the rapist, we should celebrate God's plan.

Do you believe that murderers and rapists should be rewarded? Do you believe that Hitler was sent by God to kill six million people in the Holocaust? Do you believe that God is the direct cause of every abortion on this planet? Do you believe that you have no choice in your spouse or the number of children you have? If you are a sane individual, then probably not. But that is what you are saying when you state that Hitler or cancer or anything else is part of "God's plan."

The statement "It is part of God's plan" is one of those meaningless palliatives that, when you sit down and think it through using your common sense, is totally ridiculous.

Understanding the illusion of religion

If you are a Christian, you have probably believed in God's plan your whole life. There's a very good chance that you own a copy of Rick's book -- it has sold over 20 million copies. Chances are you read chapter 2 of Rick's book and nodded your head "Yes!" through the whole thing.

But now, if you are a normal, intelligent human being, you can see that what Rick proposes is impossible. If God has "planned the days of your life in advance, choosing the exact time of your birth and death", what that means is that you have absolutely no free will. Humans have no control over anything. We are simply puppets executing the plan. It also means that prayer is absolutely pointless.

So, on the one hand you have a religion that says, "God has planned the days of your life in advance." On the other hand that same religion says, "Pray to God and he will answer your prayers." One of those two statements must be false. In fact, both of them are wrong.

The question I need to ask you, therefore, is this: Why have you never thought about your religion? Why have you never considered how impossible Rick's words are? Why have you never worked out the chain of logic?

Key Point

The only way for you to believe what Rick Warren says is for you to shut down the thinking portion of your brain. It is the only way. Otherwise, the 20 million people who bought Rick's book would have seen the logical absurdity of Chapter 2 and immediately returned the book for a refund.

All that I am asking you to do today is to turn your brain on. Understand the illusion simply by using your common sense. As soon as you think about it, you will begin to see what is actually going on.

Sean

Edited by seanph

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zandore
As for your comment that we are all a part of god's "plan"... This just shows how cruel and bloodthirsty this deity is.
Good post :tu:

If I may add a link to go with your post: Victims of the Christian Faith

As you stated "Gods plan".

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Irish

Hi sean

After reading your post I must say my faith was a little shaken it may take me a few days to find an answer to your questions of faith but please bear with me for I do know with my heart that there is reason in all that has happened. In the mean time I will share from another poster over (apothiankerdos) at worthy boards perhaps a key to this controversial issue.

I will get bact to you with my own reply when I am satified with an answer.

All the best

Irish

Matthew 21:22 (John 16:23-24)

"And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive."

This is not just a key element to those that believe in divine healing as part of the earthly atonement, but it is a staple verse for the “name it claim it” movement as a whole. Jesus states in Matthew that so long as we have faith in what we are requesting we will receive it. John 16 is along the same basic lines, that if asked in the name of Jesus, it shall be given. Is this really what Christ meant? Did Jesus really mean that if we need something or want something all we need is His name, faith, and a consistent spirit? The answer is not simply “yes” or “no.” We must break down both passages and look at a key element that many “name it claim it” theologians seem to ignore. In Matthew 21:22 Jesus is speaking of doing acts which apparently are part of His Will, not the Will of the person requesting. In other words, Christ is saying if we have faith (trust) in Him and it is His Will to move a mountain, then we shall bear witness to it. This is solidified in John 16 when Christ mentions that it shall be done in His name. This is not in the literal name of Jesus but instead in His purpose. We know that if we ask something in His name it must be done for the glory of the Father and whilst we keep His commandments (John 14:12-14) . We learn later that because we have been appointed by Christ to do the work of the Father, anything we ask in His name shall be given (John 15:16) . What all this means is that when we pray “in Christ’s name” we are praying under the will of the Father, thus if the prayer is not in the Father’s Will or does not bring Him glory then it shall not be answered. A good example of this is Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane. Here we see Jesus making a request to the Father, to have His mission removed, but still implored that God’s Will be done(Luke 22:42) . This is significant in that it shows when we make requests to God; it should always be done with His Will, not our own, in mind. Even the “model prayer” indicates this as the opening sentence is a request to have God’s Will done on earth(Matthew 6:10) . If Christ was teaching us to request all that we want in His name absent of the Father’s Will, why did He not teach us this and then follow through on it? Instead, the model prayer taught us the concept that all prayers should be done with the Will of God at the forefront.

Matthew 8:16 (Mark 1:32-34, Luke 4:40-41)

When evening came, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed; and He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were ill. This was to fulfill what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet: "HE HIMSELF TOOK OUR INFIRMITIES AND CARRIED AWAY OUR DISEASES."

This is often presented by divine healers as “proof” that Jesus is here to heal us. Unfortunately, this interpretation is plagued with error. For one this is referring to Jesus’ ministry whilst on earth. It is referring to what He did while He was here and does not deal with the salvation covenant that had yet to be made. Remember, divine healers teach that healing is a part of salvation. Salvation (as we know it), at this time, had not occurred. Instead, Jesus was fulfilling a messianic prophecy. The messiah was prophesied to heal the sick, to bring about healing a sign of who he was. Jesus accomplished this by healing the sick whilst on earth, His place as Messiah need no further proof or fulfillment (with exception to eschatological prophecies [The prophecy in Isaiah 53, as well as other prophecies, deals with the immediate Messiah, the servant Messiah, the one to die for creation. There are two types of prophecies concerning the Messiah in the Old Testament, the servant Messiah and the conquering Messiah. Jesus’ first time on earth fulfilled the servant Messiah prophecies and His second return will fulfill the conquering Messiah prophecies. ] ). Likewise, all of this is done in the past tense(pleroo is the word for “fulfilled”. In the context of Matthew 8:17 it is written plerothe which is in the aorist tense.) . In essence, Christ fulfilled the prophecy at that point and it required no further fulfilling. The prophecy is not fulfilled into the modern day and thus is only fulfilled once.

The second problem, besides twisting God’s Word, is that it gives a faulty idea of what faith truly is. Too often, the idea of faith, especially under the “name it claim it” paradigm, is believing without a reason other than you believe, or a request service. As Dr. J.P. Moreland eloquently states:

To have faith in God means to firmly rely on Him. Either way, faith is relying on what you have reason to believe is true and trustworthy. Faith involves a readiness to act as if something were so. Throughout church history, theologians have expressed three different aspects of biblical faith: notitia (knowledge), fiducia (trust), and assensus (assent). Notitia refers to the date or doctrinal content of the Christian faith (see Jude 1:3). Assensus denotes the assent of the intellect to the truth of the content of the Christian teaching. Note that each of these aspects of faith requires a careful exercise of reason, both in understanding what the teachings of Christianity are and in judging their truthfulness. In this way, reason is indispensable for the third aspect of faith – fiducia – which captures the personal application or trust involved faith, an act that primarily involves the will but includes the affections and intellect too(Moreland, J.P. PhD. Love your God with all your mind: The role of reason in the life of the soul. Navpress, Colorado Springs. 1997. pg. 60) .

Faith is relying upon what we know, trusting it, and following through on it. Thus, when we ask for something in faith it must be for something we know to be the Will of God. The faith of the divine healers is one that is selfish, it requests what we want and does so in the name of Christ. True faith, as Dr. Moreland expounded, is trusting in Christ. The difference is quite distinct. Whereas under the improper view of faith a person suffering of cancer will constantly request healing and become upset as the healing does not come. He trusts in his faith, in his ability to request, rather than in God healing him in some form. A person with a proper view of faith will still probably request healing (after all, who would not?) but at the same time, he will trust that God will take care of him no matter what, even if death occurs. Faith is trusting in God, not telling God what to do.

This leads to a misuse and misunderstanding of what prayer is. If faith is not a request table, then likewise prayer should not be done in the same fashion. Often times those that believe in the “name it claim it” theology treat prayer as a drive through order. It is nothing more than “I want and I claim.” The problem with this is we are requesting things that we do not know how we can handle. For instance, there are many teachers out there (even books by non-Charismatic teachers) that say if we want to be blessed then we have to request it. One of the biggest lies that ever went around the Christian world was the Prayer of Jabez teachings. If we would only pray to God to increase our land, He would. This is a faulty assumption. Prayer, the entire purpose of it, is communication between God and man. It is for us to cry out to God our pains, our agony. It is to share with Him our pleasure, our happiness. It is for us to confess our sins and request forgiveness. It is to expound on His glory and praise and worship Him simply for being powerful. It is, also, for us to ask Him for what we believe we need. However, God knows what we need more than we do, thus when we go with an attitude of “I want it and I claim it in your name” and will not accept “no” for an answer, we are essentially telling God, “I know what’s best for me, you don’t, now give me what I need.” This ignores the overall plan of God and the entire purpose of prayer. God knows what we need; His perspective is much greater than our own. Our perspective is, on average, about five to six feet off the ground. We view the world, the entire universe, from a perspective that can only gain a little bit of information. We can only look at history through the eyes of people who were limited like us and we have no idea what the future holds because we cannot look that far. God, on the other hand, sees the entire universe in one glance. He knows the past because His hand guided it, and He knows the future because His hand has already created it. Humans requesting of God what we want and ignoring His Will in prayer is absurd and insulting. Imagine an ant wanted to set up shelter on a certain location. However, an elephant saw this location was in a flood plain that always flooded when the tide rolled in. The elephant refused to let the ant build there. Yet the ant pestered the elephant, saying he was righteous, he was hard working, he deserved to be blessed enough to build where he wanted. This would be the equivalent to Christians praying and demanding of God things we do not know we can handle. Prayer is to discover God’s Will, not an attempt to shape it.

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777MileStare

Why would his son be less important then him. There is no ladder or anything. Just that Jesus is God. To be human he did as his father asked. - Jesus knew that this would save us. How can the savior of mankind be less then or greater then God who in itself Jesus is God?

I want to understand the difference between this statement and the other one you made. The thing is though, I want you to seperate them into categories between human - more human than human - angel - God - ect.

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777MileStare

The sons of God refered in Genesis are angels.

If anyone else could explain better. That would help.

We are all children of God therefore all sons and daughters. The difference is Jesus is God.

There is God the Father

God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

The trinity.

"The difference is Jesus is God".

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777MileStare

Post #467 - "An angel does not have as much power as God" -101

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