Why was Adam punished

[Yelekiah]

Ok, silly.

Adam means "of the Red Earth". He was made from the dust, joc.

Aw-Dawn in Akkadian means "Life Blood". The Sumerians used it for "blood clot". Dust is flesh and blood, not literal dust.

(Ah-Dam, etc.)

[TheEssenceofExcellence]

Genesis 2:15-17 –

A very straight forward section of scripture; Adam was told not to eat of the fruit of a particular tree and told that if he did, he would die! Very straight forward; until you stop and really ponder it. Eating of the fruit of that particular tree, the tree of knowledge of good and evil, would impart the knowledge of good and evil; implying that prior to that Adam (nor Eve for that matter) had no understanding of right and wrong, good and bad. They had no knowledge that disobeying God was wrong and obeying the snake was wrong – they had no knowledge of right and wrong!

Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made and he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? (See, down and dirty – straight to the point).

Not knowing good and evil doesn't make someone not know that they're supposed to obey God or not know right from wrong. A child knows not to walk out the front door when their parents tell them not to, but a child doesn't comprehend good and evil.

Genesis 3:4-5 (The serpent is evidentially telling the truth here as will be shown in Genesis 3:22 and since Adam and Eve didn’t die instantly, he once again told the truth, whereas God seems to have lied by omission, not stipulating that death would occur many years later.)

not really. God said if they ate they would die, which they did. The snake said if they ate they wouldn't die, which they did. The snake lied.

Genesis 3:9 And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? (well, so much for being all-knowing, Jehovah kinda shot that in the rear with his question, it sure doesn’t sound rhetorical)

God was physically in the garden, like Jesus was on earth later. And like he was at the begining of the Sodom and Gomarah story. God is all knowing, but if he takes physical human form he likes to do the things the simple way. An analogy would be a camper... A camper could cook their food in about 15 minutes in a microwave, take a shower with soap and shampoo, and sleep in a mattress when they're at home......but when they head out into the forest for the camping trip they rough it by using fire, the lake, and a sleeping bag. It's not that they couldn't do the same thing much easier at home, they just choose to do it the hard way for fun.

Genesis 3:14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field, upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: (This seems rather harsh for telling the truth, doesn’t it. After all, all the dude did was give out a little information and point out that God wasn’t being completely truthful. Isn’t it strange that the first two lies were spoken by God? “You will surely die” and “dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life” – I know of no snake that eats dust…frogs, insects, fowls, mammals, other amphibians and reptiles, not none eat dust.)

God didn't lie... And the eating dust thing could just mean he'd have to suffer breathing it in all his days because of being so close to the ground. Plus, lets not forget that the punishment could be intended for the fallen angel that took the form of the snake, not all snakes themselves.

Genesis 3:22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever. (Now we see Jehovah talking to other gods [no, not the spirit and the word, they are part and parcel, according to Nicenean Christians, of the father and would instantly know what he knows], which brings up the question of who those gods were, his old chums from the original Hebrew pantheon, including his little spouse Asherah, maybe…..Whoo this is getting too very convoluted to be anything but myth)

Now for some rather simple questions, to which I would like some simple straightforward answers:

It never says God was talking to "other" gods. It just shows he was talking to others with him. He was talking to the angels, who he created first and consaulted with before creating man. The angles are alot like God because they are immortal like him and know of good and evil like he does.

Why was Adam condemned for eating from this tree? While it is true that God told him not to, without the knowledge of good and evil (which the tree imparts), he would not know that it was wrong to disobey God. He was merely following the advice of the special helper (she who would later be know as Eve, but at that time was nameless) that God had given him, and her friend the talking Snake. He was only a few days old and didn’t know that animals couldn’t talk, after all He, God and his nameless special helper could. I guess that on that fateful day Adam should have just continued playing with his grass-eating Tyrannosaurus Rex and avoided the woman and snake altogether!

dumb question. He disobeyed God. And he wasn't condemmed. All God really did to him was kick him out of the garden. God punished eve more than he punished adam.

Maybe Jehovah is actually Satan and Satan is actually Jehovah! Makes your head spin doesn’t it!

No. If the snake was the real God he wouldn't have to go behind the other guy's back like a coward. Remember God is ALL mighty. And the snake was the one who got punished.

Another good question, why was the woman such an independent thinker, why was she the one to “think outside the box (or in this case the garden)”. Why was she so persuasive and convincing that along with the words from the Snake, she could persuade Adam, even above God’s indiction? Isn’t it almost like she was designed to be deceptive and tricky? Could God have had this in mind all along…after all, how many talking snakes are there? Again, evidence of intentional deceit on the part of God!

nothing shows eve was an idependent thinker, her actions show the contrary. She couldn't think for herself at all hardly which is why she did everything someone else told her to do.

[Jodie.Lynne]

so Eve is guilty because she is a dependant witless being?

Oh boy.........

And you are OK withthe notion that an entire species is 'guilty from the get go' because of the actions of two people?

[mako]

Not knowing good and evil doesn't make someone not know that they're supposed to obey God or not know right from wrong. A child knows not to walk out the front door when their parents tell them not to, but a child doesn't comprehend good and evil.

When a child can walk out the front door, they have around for at least a year and quite possibly more. Yes, they would by then know right from wrong, but the newborn, less than a few days old, would have no knowledge of right or wrong and would not know it was wrong not to obey the parent! Adam was the equivalent of a new-born in experience and knowledge. What about this concept don’t you understand?

not really. God said if they ate they would die, which they did. The snake said if they ate they wouldn't die, which they did. The snake lied.

If you will look at Genesis 3:22, “And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever.”; you will see that man was not intended to live forever, he was a mortal entity, so when Jehovah said “surely, you will die”, he meant at the moment he ate the fruit. You have to admit that God lied and the Snake was truthful and honorable with Adam and Eve!

God was physically in the garden, like Jesus was on earth later. And like he was at the begining of the Sodom and Gomarah story. God is all knowing, but if he takes physical human form he likes to do the things the simple way. An analogy would be a camper... A camper could cook their food in about 15 minutes in a microwave, take a shower with soap and shampoo, and sleep in a mattress when they're at home......but when they head out into the forest for the camping trip they rough it by using fire, the lake, and a sleeping bag. It's not that they couldn't do the same thing much easier at home, they just choose to do it the hard way for fun.

Sorry, that has to be the biggest load of male bovine manure I have ever heard. You Christians will say anything to keep from admitting that your god isn’t what you claim. “all knowing, but likes to do things the simple way” LOL, the simple way is to be all knowing, why would any supreme deity want to curtail his abilities, “operate on two cylinders“? Ludicrous at the best!

God didn't lie... And the eating dust thing could just mean he'd have to suffer breathing it in all his days because of being so close to the ground. Plus, lets not forget that the punishment could be intended for the fallen angel that took the form of the snake, not all snakes themselves.

First point, where does it say that the Snake and “the fallen angel” were the same entity (for that matter, where are angels mentioned in the creation story)? Since the serpents are on the upper part of his head and since serpents normally raise their heads when slithering, plus the fact that serpents raise no more dust in proportion than do any other creature, they are no more likely to breathe dust than is a man or deer or dog. God lied, pure and simple.

It never says God was talking to "other" gods. It just shows he was talking to others with him. He was talking to the angels, who he created first and consaulted with before creating man. The angles are a lot like God because they are immortal like him and know of good and evil like he does.

I can take the same tack, it never says god was talking to angels and no where does it say that he created angels prior to mankind. Plants, yes…Animals, yes (depending on which version of the creation story you are reading, of the two that exist in Genesis), angels…nope, not even mentioned until long after the creation story! Sorry, no segar, evidentially god was talking to other gods!

dumb question. He disobeyed God. And he wasn't condemmed. All God really did to him was kick him out of the garden. God punished eve more than he punished adam.

He disobeyed through lack of knowledge, he had no experience or knowledge of right and wrong, to punish him would be like punishing a newborn for messing his diapers! Kicking him out of paradise, making him earn his bread by the sweat of his brow, making him watch his wife suffer through child birth, taking his companionship away from Adam and condemning him to Hell (he was no longer in a state grace) for eternity may not be condemning to you, but to the average person, it would be condemning with a capital C!

nothing shows eve was an idependent thinker, her actions show the contrary. She couldn't think for herself at all hardly which is why she did everything someone else told her to do.

Unlike most theists, Eve did not take the word that she got second-hand and thought for herself. Her actions were those of a person that had examined the evidence and acted on what she thought was right. Instead of being rewarded for using the brain that he had given her, Jehovah cursed her and blamed her for not having the knowledge that he should have provided. In short, it was a set up.

As I said Mako, I believe the creation story to be an analogy and not to be taken literally. I was simply answering as if it were what happened. If it did happen, a case can be made that Adam was "set up". God wants people to willingly follow Him, not mindless zombies. But all this talk of horrible torture for eternity is a load of crap to tell you the truth.

Personally, I think it is a myth borrowed or stolen from the Sumerians by way of Ugarit! This myth was around centuries before the post-exilic priests finally added it to their new-born scriptures. Eternal torture is a well established tenet of your religion, contrary to your personal beliefs.

THis is of course assuming that the sole purpose of this life is to be happy and content!

A loving and benevolent god would make that the sole purpose of life. Only a cruel or detached god would make it otherwise.

Edited November 29, 2005 by mako

[Bluefinger]

I believe the story is literal. The reason for the exile from the garden was because of the Tree of Life in the middle of the garden. God said, Lest they eat of the Tree of Life and live forever...and so he kicked them all out. Adam and Eve bore children in the garden. Otherwise Cane would not have had a wife. So, collectively all of the humans were kicked out of the garden. And they all died.

I think the whole tree of knowlege of good and evil is the Law, reason being is the law condemns someone for their sins, just as the law brings lawbreakers into incareration. The penalty of sin is death, as God said, "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." The tree of life gave eternal life, and this couldn't be allowed, since the reason the woman ate the fruit in the first place was to be like God. Thus how can a soul sin and live forever if the penalty for disobedience is eventual death? I believe the tree of life is a representation of Jesus, knowing that the Law came first and then the Salvation. That was the point of the Messiah right? To fight off the enemies of God and save the God's children from wicked people, recompensing them to God by himself in which they confide in?

Like I said for the serpent, it may just be that the serpent was the intelligent life form at the time of Adam's creation, knowing that animals came first and then men. The serpent was obviously more intelligent than Eve, for he knew that flesh has desire and the soul craves life, so he lied about them dieing and tricked her into wanting to be like God, apparently it was in her heart.

Anyway, just some other ways of understanding, who knows?

God bless

Edited November 29, 2005 by Bluefinger

[Jodie.Lynne]

If that is true, Blue, then the story makes even LESS sense. If the tree of knowledge was the law, then wouldn't your god want his people to know it?

Kind of hard to obey the rules if you don't know what the rules are, don't you think?

[draconic chronicler]

I don't think there can be any doubt at all that th Sumerian Adapa and the Serpent-dragon is the origin of the genesis story. It has all the same elements, and easily 1000 years earlier that the earliest bible, and tradiiton has it that the Hebrews came from Sumeria where this story originated.. And women should appreciate it as they are not blamed for what happend as in the original story. But after hundreds of years of the Nomadic lifestyle women had to be "put in their place", and changing the genesis story to to blame women for the sin, and therefore justify their overbearing treatment of them, made a lot of sense. We see this today in the hebrews's close semitic relatives, the arabs.

[Ashley-Star*Child]

Why was Adam condemned for eating from this tree? While it is true that God told him not to, without the knowledge of good and evil (which the tree imparts),

Well that's just it. He (Adam) DID know the difference between good and evil. And God told Adam about his free will and the light and the dark, the good and the bad paths. And this goes back to the very reason, not only for Adam and Eve's creation, but our reason for existence and the way that life is as it is, both light and dark. For this free will was a test of devotion to God, unlike the first created angels, this 'second kind of angel' Adam and Eve was given their own world and dominion and the free will to decide if they would show devotion to God of their own free will. As God said 'And I will see who among you race loves or abhors Me'. In short it was a test.

Being that they were created a 'second kind of angel' death would not have touched them if they passed the test, as angels are immortal. The 'knowledge' of the tree was mortality itself. The 'snake' wasn't a 'helper' but an accusing angel. Accusing angels are there to tempt test and accuse you before God as a test of free will itself. How can you test free will without temptation? Even angels aren't immune to such tests.

[Jodie.Lynne]

wait, wait, wait.

You are trying to tell me, that god told A&E not to eat from the 'tree of the knowledge of god & evil", because they already KNEW the difference?

Then why would the friggin tree be there in the first place?????

Sorry ladies and gents, but that seems to be a bit of a stretch.

[Lord Umbarger]

Adam was punished for his choice in cooks! "Here, Adam, Honey, look what I sun baked for you while you were away sleeping in the garden!"

You know what? I would've demanded my rib back right then! As a matter of fact, I'd like to see that rib of mine right now, just to make sure you ladies still have it!

What do you mean that you can't make with it? Did you lose it to that damned snake again? I keep telling G-d, I like the neighborhood but, he's got to do something about that sneaky tenent next door!"

Sorry, that'sthe best I could come up with but, seeing as how this thread is going anyhow...

Edited November 30, 2005 by Lord Umbarger

[Ashley-Star*Child]

That is what's written. Given free will it had to be tested, or what use is it? That's what makes us different from these 'first created angels' (besides the fact that we also have mortality, domonion over a whole planet which also incited jealousy, etc) we have the free will to choose to follow God, angels, fallen or not, do not. They are all under God's command and dominion and even the fallen work for Him.

Adam knew he had the free will to go against God's wishes, and he knew the consequences. It was fair game. Given the slightest temptation, he took the bait. So, he inherited mortality.

[ShaunZero]

That is what's written. Given free will it had to be tested, or what use is it? That's what makes us different from these 'first created angels' (besides the fact that we also have mortality, domonion over a whole planet which also incited jealousy, etc) we have the free will to choose to follow God, angels, fallen or not, do not. They are all under God's command and dominion and even the fallen work for Him.

Adam knew he had the free will to go against God's wishes, and he knew the consequences. It was fair game. Given the slightest temptation, he took the bait. So, he inherited mortality.

Nice way of putting it.

[Ashley-Star*Child]

Thank you

[HKCavalier]

Hey, I don't claim to be any kind of great high muckity-muck of Kabbalah, but the Kabbalah understands genesis as a text describing the nature of the mind. Adam is the conscious mind or will and Eve is the subconscious or potentiality. The story says that while the conscious mind sleeps (not necessarily literally, just sleeps, as the will does when we neglect our life) the subconscious mind is always roving and investigating and will lead the mind into areas of experience before we are ready and cause a lot of grief that needs to be worked thru. The promise of the Kabbalah is that the subconscious can be educated if the will is given proper authority over it. This is the meaning behind Adam's being above Eve in the hierarchy; not a sexist doctrine (tho sexism obviously exists at the level of culture), but a magical treatise on how best to order one's reality and one's life.

[mako]

He (Adam) DID know the difference between good and evil. And God told Adam about his free will and the light and the dark, the good and the bad paths.

And your evidence for this statement is what (and please don't try to foist off that late 2nd century BCE pseudepigrapha, Job as the source).