Mexico criticizes U.S. over border plans

[__Kratos__]

MONTERREY, Mexico - Mexico's president on Wednesday criticized the U.S. decision to complete a wall along the border and use drones to increase security, calling it "disgraceful and shameful."

On Monday, a U.S. judge lifted the final legal obstacle for the completion of a border fence along the Mexico-California border. Plans call for two additional fences running parallel to the existing steel barrier, with sensors and cameras tracking any movement.

The fences will run along the final 3 1/2 miles of the border before it meets the Pacific.

"This situation we're seeing, a disgraceful and shameful moment where walls are being built, security systems are being reinforced, and human and labor rights are being violated more and more, won't protect the economy of the United States," President Vicente Fox said.

"It would be hard to know what would happen to the economy of the United States if it wasn't for the enormous contribution, the productivity, the quality of work of our countrymen in that country," Fox added.

Last month, President Bush said he was providing border agents with cutting-edge technology like surveillance drones and infrared cameras. In October, Bush signed a $32 billion homeland security bill for 2006 that included 1,000 additional Border Patrol agents.

Speaking in the border city of Reynosa, where he welcomed migrants home for the holidays, Fox said he was hopeful the United States will approve a temporary guest worker program next year. Reynosa is across from Hidalgo, Texas.

Bush has proposed a temporary guest worker program that envisions having most workers return home after up to six years working in the United States. Mexico wants a more permanent, legal residence for many of the millions of undocumented Mexicans living and working in the United States.

"What the United States needs is a young (work) force, energy, quality, productivity, which is what keeps that economy competitive and is the only way it can stop losing jobs to Asia, to China," the president said.

Fox was in Reynosa supervising the Paisano Program, a government effort to clamp down on corrupt public officials and to welcome Mexican migrants home for the holidays as he has done every year since 2000.

His government has posted more than 1,000 independent observers at major crossings and installed hot lines for migrants to report abuse.

Source

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mexico can just go screw off. I am a great fan of stopping criminals coming over the borders.

[XNavyGunner]

and human and labor rights are being violated more

Does he honestly believe this r is he trying to get votes? If they want to come here to work do it legally. Fox needs to remember this is our country not his.

[PLO]

"It would be hard to know what would happen to the economy of the United States if it wasn't for the enormous contribution, the productivity, the quality of work of our countrymen in that country," Fox added.

thats pretty much sums it up.

[Celumnaz]

I'd probably be a HUGE benifit to the country. I just don't like the idea of a wall. I like the minuteman idea better, enforcing exsisting laws, more cooperation with border patrol and national guard.

[thebarman]

"It would be hard to know what would happen to the economy of the United States if it wasn't for the enormous contribution, the productivity, the quality of work of our countrymen in that country," Fox added.

I'm not American, or Mexican for that matter, but at a guess I'd say what would happen is unemplyment rates would fall - which has many knock on effects. Less people would become homeless, more people would be paying tax, less money would be being sent out of the USA and cause the dollar to rise in turn making America richer.

However, a wall won't stop anyone. All Britain has to do is stop people coming in the Channel tunnel and we can't even do that

[PLO]

no see what would basicaly happen if america stopd their slave labour from mexico is that unemployment rates would sky rocket, companies no longer being able to higher US citizens at a greater cost would force Tax's to rise. Many business would go bankrupt and your general standard of living would fall dramticaly, you'd also notice a suprising drop in the number of drugs you could procure[this is either a good or a bad thing depending on your personal preferances] So though it may not be good to have TOO many people in one country, its good to have just the amount you need to rely upon.

[thebarman]

That's simply not true, only illegal immigrants would be stopped, there would still be plenty of legal tax paying immigrants left to take the lower paid jobs in their place.

This also has the effect of encouraging Mexicans to come into the USA legally, thereby having a registered address and being easier to track and having a steady income, lowering the temptation to turn to crime.

Companies won't go bust, they'll just have to get their workers legally, and frankly I wouldn't want companies not operating legally to stay in business anyway.

I find your grasp of economics "interesting" to say the least. How exactly do you link the fall in illegal immigrants to the standard of American living falling "dramatically"?

Very bizarre

[iaapac]

I guess I have the perfect middle ground as an American living in Mexico for many years. One of the things not considered is the real potential for Lopez Obrador to be the next President of Mexico. He is a harsh, fast-acting, rebellious type of politician. Close the frontier with a fence and you might just see the U.S. industries in Mexico suddenly nationalized and the properties seized. It happened in the 1940s with President Cardenas. Mexico has everything to gain and little to lose by this action but the U.S.?

Surely you would see a leap in the U.S. job market but how many corporations would be bankrupted by this action? With increased job opportunities in Mexico, there would less need to migrate northward.

It will be interesting to see what this action produces, but I predict it will be nothing good.

[Celumnaz]

no see what would basicaly happen if america stopd their slave labour

Should we encourage slave labor as policy? Is this truely slave labor? Is slave labor a good or bad thing?

from mexico is that unemployment rates would sky rocket,

Fewer workers, more job slots to fill, equates to more unemployment? Have to disagree with that unless there's a line of logic to that that I'm missing. To me that would seem to Reduce unemployment.

companies no longer being able to higher US citizens at a greater cost would force Tax's to rise.

Why? I don't understand that, but I want to. Why would companies no longer be able to hire US citizens? Why would a greater cost of hireing employees cause Taxes to rise? The cost of employees is another whole topic too, although they are slightly related.

Many business would go bankrupt

Why would they go bankrupt? And, is this a bad thing? Wouldn't it force innovation and competition bringing costs Down?

and your general standard of living would fall dramticaly,

Why? Citizens that woudn't have a job, might now have one, at a higher wage increasing each workers standard of living?

you'd also notice a suprising drop in the number of drugs you could procure[this is either a good or a bad thing depending on your personal preferances]

Not too sure on that either. Again, human innovation. A wall won't stop Miami boat runners. Canadian runners. Still have plenty of coast and unprotected border. Aircraft. But let me add I'm totally against the "war on drugs".

So though it may not be good to have TOO many people in one country, its good to have just the amount you need to rely upon.

I'd rather have quality than quantity.

[sanchera1978]

I hope Lopez Obrador gets elected as the new president. He seems to actually care about the people and not cater to corporations. Your right Iaapac it will be very interesting watching the outcome if he does get elected and the US builds the wall. I imagine it would benefit Mexico's economy greatly kicking out all the US companies currently doing business in Mexico. There are tons of companies on the borders that utilize "Slave labor" to build the products then ship them over to the US.

[thebarman]

Why would a greater cost of hireing employees cause Taxes to rise?

I too am curious on the answer to that one, feel free to answer in as much detail as possible PLO...

[iaapac]

I'd rather have quality than quantity. . . . .

Is that a statement of American superiority?

[sanchera1978]

Did you mean nothing good for the US or Mexico Iaapac. I think Mexico would benefit from this and the US might suffer economically.

[PLO]

"Fewer workers, more job slots to fill, equates to more unemployment? Have to disagree with that unless there's a line of logic to that that I'm missing. To me that would seem to Reduce unemployment."

no becuase the working class majority is foreign, also becuase the fact an american citizen gets paid more than an illegal immigrant so comapanies will not be able to afford to higher them unless they recieve more goverment subsidies, which in turn will increase taxation to support to the newer and more exspensive working caste.

"Why would they go bankrupt? And, is this a bad thing? Wouldn't it force innovation and competition bringing costs Down?"

NO.

"Why? Citizens that woudn't have a job, might now have one, at a higher wage increasing each workers standard of living?"

generaly when thigns become more expsensive the luxurys go down as they are a greater financial exspence to teh average person than before,, however this may be offset against the amount of new employee's making money.

"you'd also notice a suprising drop in the number of drugs you could procure[this is either a good or a bad thing depending on your personal preferances]"

mexican drug cartels usually fence their produce to people in america from their own countries of origins before they then spread to the happy lower to middle upper class with money to spend on said luxury items[and yes the "war on drugs" is imo completely insane, i myself like to toke]

"So though it may not be good to have TOO many people in one country, its good to have just the amount you need to rely upon."

many of the foreign immigrants that travel to another country are generaly skilld labourers , some are lucky enough to find areas of expertise in which to use their field or some just end up working at wal-mart or on work farms near the border[the Simpsons take the p*** out of this when they make a good point about Apu, during propasition 24?]

[thebarman]

I was really hoping for a good response there, my hopes were dashed with that utter garble. This paragraph in particular doesn't even make sense:

"Why? Citizens that woudn't have a job, might now have one, at a higher wage increasing each workers standard of living?"

generaly when thigns become more expsensive the luxurys go down as they are a greater financial exspence to teh average person than before,, however this may be offset against the amount of new employee's making money.

That doesn't even answer the question! It just raises more questions. Questions I'm not going to ask for fear of provoking a response so garbled in nature and riddled with grammatical errors it would baffle me beyond the degree I'm prepared to accept at 1 minute past 5 on a Friday evening.

[__Kratos__]

"It would be hard to know what would happen to the economy of the United States if it wasn't for the enormous contribution, the productivity, the quality of work of our countrymen in that country," Fox added.

thats pretty much sums it up.

Just too bad that isn't true. We're better off with out illegal immigrants. Because even though they fill those jobs, they don't pay taxes, and use a great deal of resources around them on the tax payers dime. Billions and billions of dollars down the drain each year on these people. Most are untrained people that work for next to nothing, stealing that job because the shifty employer would rather pay some illegal a fraction of what they'd pay a real citizen/legal immigrant.

[Celumnaz]

no becuase the working class majority is foreign,

is this an accepted fact? Something for me to look up later. Have looked at this before, but I think it depends what you mean by "working class".

also becuase the fact an american citizen gets paid more than an illegal immigrant so comapanies will not be able to afford to higher them

They shouldn't be hireing illegals in the first place. Serves them right for skewing the market. Good, they can't hire them like that. I kinda like that.

unless they recieve more goverment subsidies,

Which I'm also pretty much against. Let them go out of business, Please. So far I like the way this is going.

which in turn will increase taxation to support to the newer and more exspensive working caste.

No, workers accept a lower wage, or the company goes out of business, or someone gets innovative, or there are other solutions. No reason to raise taxes and support a failing enterprise, for Failing.

NO.

Hmm... yes, I think it would.

generaly when thigns become more expsensive the luxurys go down as they are a greater financial exspence to teh average person than before,, however this may be offset against the amount of new employee's making money.

I'm not sure where this fits. Part of the problem is our lower income earners think they're entitled to luxuries and choose to spend their monies on luxuries than necessities and savings.

mexican drug cartels usually fence their produce to people in america from their own countries of origins before they then spread to the happy lower to middle upper class with money to spend on said luxury items[and yes the "war on drugs" is imo completely insane, i myself like to toke]

So do I, but the rest of the post doesn't make much sense to me, I apologize. Quite a lot of drugs originating in Mexico is transported off the California and Gulf coasts and work their way into the interior, but yes some does come from the southern border, and many other nations use the Canadian border, including Mexico.

many of the foreign immigrants that travel to another country are generaly skilld labourers ,

majority are unskilled. a portion a skilled. I guess it depends on the industry pursued.

some are lucky enough to find areas of expertise in which to use their field or some just end up working at wal-mart or on work farms near the border[the Simpsons take the p*** out of this when they make a good point about Apu, during propasition 24?]

Are you seriously basing your political, social, and economic positions from a cartoon?

Edited December 16, 2005 by Celumnaz

[PLO]

well teh fact is the economic impact could be significant. While most analysts peg the number of illegal immigrants at 10 million to 11 million[though its likely to be around 20-30 million], a recent study by Bear Stearns Asset Management (BSC ) concluded that data on housing permits, school enrollment, and foreign remittances suggests there could be as many as 20 million. Either way, the undocumented, a majority of whom are Hispanic, are one of the nation's largest sources of population growth. They add 700,000 new consumers to the economy every year, more even than the 600,000 or so legal immigrants, according to Pew's new study. What's more, 84% of illegals are 18-to-44-year-olds, in their prime spending years, vs. 60% of legal residents. Corporate sales and profits will get a shot in the arm if more of them move out of the cash economy, put their money in banks, and take out credit cards, car loans, and home mortgages. U.S. gross national product could get a boost, too, since consumers with credit can spend more than those limited to cash. as for teh simpsons though i feared that may have been taken that way, however u can clearly see that some very intelligent persons have also made a point of this to people. Apu actually being a doctorate of mathematics, being an illegal cannot persue a "career" and is almost condemnd to work at the quiki-mart. As for drugs from canada its mostly grass that gets over, care of Brittish columbia[man theyve got good grass there] but Miami and california, are probably the largest trafikd areas from south america and mexico.

"I'm not sure where this fits. Part of the problem is our lower income earners think they're entitled to luxuries and choose to spend their monies on luxuries than necessities and savings."

yeah thats true, but then it becomes a problem for whoever does the books on your goverments balance, ultimatly people shouldnt do that, but they do.

i know that a poll done in britain here last year, immigrants actully paid more taxes comparatively per head, than the actuall citizens did. Odd.

Edited December 16, 2005 by PLO

[Conspiracy]

whats the point of just building one between california/mexico? waste of money just doing that only

[iaapac]

Did you mean nothing good for the US or Mexico Iaapac. I think Mexico would benefit from this and the US might suffer economically.

Agreed . . . . it would all depend on the attitude of the President. Obrador is easier to predict but Calderon is an unknown. I believe PRI is out of the picture this year. But you could easily be right and this could benefit Mexico greatly.

[Lord Umbarger]

I think that the fence would be a good idea. Coupled with an expanded guest worker plan and the new program of sending illegals back to thier homeland ASAP. This would mean that those who came to the U.S. would have to have background checks before obtaining a visa. Yet another incentive to keep your nose clean in your homecountry.

Besides, if you know thtat you'll be sent home, (instead of the current policy of being expected to show up in court), for coming here illegally, you'll be less likely to try it. It would also fall more in line with the intention of granting swift and speedy trial. We're supposed to do that anyway.

I heard on the news last night that over 50% of Mexicos economy came from people in the U.S. sending money home! I don't know how accurate that is but, I do know that it's a high percentage of the economy.

I don't know if Bush is just doing this to gain votes for his party or not. I do hope that's not the case. Of course, this is being spearheaded by the Department of Homeland Security, so maybe they are serious this time.

[iaapac]

I think that the fence would be a good idea. Coupled with an expanded guest worker plan and the new program of sending illegals back to thier homeland ASAP. This would mean that those who came to the U.S. would have to have background checks before obtaining a visa. Yet another incentive to keep your nose clean in your homecountry.

Besides, if you know thtat you'll be sent home, (instead of the current policy of being expected to show up in court), for coming here illegally, you'll be less likely to try it. It would also fall more in line with the intention of granting swift and speedy trial. We're supposed to do that anyway.

I heard on the news last night that over 50% of Mexicos economy came from people in the U.S. sending money home! I don't know how accurate that is but, I do know that it's a high percentage of the economy.

I don't know if Bush is just doing this to gain votes for his party or not. I do hope that's not the case. Of course, this is being spearheaded by the Department of Homeland Security, so maybe they are serious this time.

There are 28,000 Americans who cannot re-enter the United States if they visit Mexico because their names are on the Bush Administration "black list." Even though in many cases their names are duplicates of the real culprit, their names cannot be removed. This week a 9-month-old baby was refused an airline ticket because his name was the same as a person whose name is on the list for one reason or another. How's that for keeping your nose clean in your home country? But the Patriot Act will probably be renewed and with it Americans will suffer even greater losses of their freedoms and rights. Bush admitted this week that he approved spying on U.S. citizens without court permission but years passed with this activity and no one knew they were under surveillance. E-mails to foreign nations passed through the National Security Council first. So if you e-mail me, you will be checked. Land of the Free . . . . goodbye.

[__Kratos__]

PLO, even with them being consumers they are leeches on the US. Take a large mammal for example, you put one leech on it and the animal won't die over a period of time... now... put over 10 million leeches on that same animal, and it will die. Same idea with America's economy. If it was that simple, there would be no problem at all. But in today's world illegal immigrants are a problem, one that needs to be addressed with more attention.

As for giving them special permissions to stay and such... why reward a criminal for breaking the laws of this country? What does it really say about their character if their first action in entering this nation is breaking the law?

Then once here they always don't stop at breaking the border laws, they go on to all lengths of the laws. Problems, in every way they are. There is no benefict in their criminal activity.

[iaapac]

So should Mexico jail the 450,000 resident Americans who have no legal documents to be here? By your reasoning, of course, they are all criminals.

[__Kratos__]

So should Mexico jail the 450,000 resident Americans who have no legal documents to be here? By your reasoning, of course, they are all criminals.

Mexico is it's own country, if they choose to, then that's their right and yes, if Mexico's laws state they are there illegally, of course they are criminals. Just as it is America's right to make and enforce it's laws.